2017 All-Too-Early Trade Speculation Thread

Now that Ryan Mallett is long-gone, thus ending the chances of getting Larry Fitzgerald, is this where we come up with our trade ideas for Joe Thomas?

I always wonder about midseason trades for NFL teams. Are there particular positions (offensive line, for instance) that don't make good mid-season acquisitions because of the amount of system techniques they have to learn?

In Breer's column today, he mentions the Eagles as a possible Butler match with Mychael Kendricks coming back to the Pats.

Is there a thread to talk about the Butler stuff?

This just seems like a media-driven narrative to me with very little actually behind it. My biggest concern is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Butler at his worst is still a valuable depth corner, which means he's an asset that I would not want to see traded for peanuts.

lexrageorge said:

Butler at his worst is still a valuable depth corner, which means he's an asset that I would not want to see traded for peanuts.

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He also hits guys really hard. It's a hard position to play and I think it's kind of a momentum position too in that guys can go on a roll and then sort of lose a bit of confidence, and there can be ups and downs. Butler has really good skills and makes life difficult for receivers. The narrative, though, is just so weird. He has contributed a lot to the team. The crazy discontent stories that were going around in the off season seem to have had a small basis in reality, but on Butler's side he never said the wrong thing. Highly motivated kid capable of making big plays, playing for a free agent contract, with limited shelf life left on our once in a franchise quarterback and head coach.

Obviously, there could be stuff behind the scenes. But, the fact that writers need to fill columns to me is not a reason to start creating an environment that potentially leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy with a player who can be a significant part of this team, especially where we don't exactly know what we've got this year on that side of the ball anyway.

I was really disappointed to see Ryan go. The money he got made it the right call, but he was a tacking machine and did the kind of stuff that over the course of a game makes things difficult for receivers and maybe makes them a bit short armed on third down in the last ten minutes. Butler has some of that, and with a nasty edge. I love him on this team.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

Is there a thread to talk about the Butler stuff?

This just seems like a media-driven narrative to me with very little actually behind it. My biggest concern is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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In what way? You expect the Pats braintrust to be influenced by the media into trading a guy? Not likely.

Harry Hooper said:

In what way? You expect the Pats braintrust to be influenced by the media into trading a guy? Not likely.

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I think the idea is that the rumors, innuendo, and other media attention drive dissatisfaction in the player, which causes the player to grouse and complain, and then get traded for being a problem.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

Is there a thread to talk about the Butler stuff?

This just seems like a media-driven narrative to me with very little actually behind it. My biggest concern is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Other than the fact that he sucked throughout the preseason and the Chiefs game. He did play better in the Saints game, once he got on the field. YMMV on whether that's because he's being "frozen out" by the coaches or because he hasn't earned playing time with his practice performances. I fall on the latter; there's little or no evidence that this coaching staff intentionally makes the team worse. All of the other situations like this - as Ted Johnson talked about today on TSH with Beetle & Zo - are a mix of the player being pissed off and the coaches refusing to credit the player with "time served" as a factor in their analysis of who is playing well/the best fit for the team & game plan this week.

I sincerely hope that the benching was a wake up call and that Butler's better on-field performance after it lifted is a sign that he's on-board and has his head screwed on straight. He will get paid by someone else after the season if he plays well this season. He might even get paid if he plays like he did in the preseason (read: like Duane Starks's illegitimate son). And if he's a negative presence in the locker room, he'll get the Colllins treatment and be sent to San Francisco or something.

That Butler has mostly sucked this season isn't a "media-driven narrative" - it is right there on tape for anyone willing to watch it with an open mind. If the benching helped, then good job coaches. If not, then bad job Butler.

I'm super curious to see the contract he ends up landing - I don't see it being much, if at all, better than Logan Ryan's, to be honest

edit: timely tweet

Phil Perry‏Verified account @PhilAPerry 16s17 seconds ago
Malcolm Butler on not starting: "I haven't been performing at the level that I should be...I'm finding my way back. Better believe that."

tims4wins said:

I'm super curious to see the contract he ends up landing - I don't see it being much, if at all, better than Logan Ryan's, to be honest

edit: timely tweet

Phil Perry‏Verified account @PhilAPerry 16s17 seconds ago
Malcolm Butler on not starting: "I haven't been performing at the level that I should be...I'm finding my way back. Better believe that."

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Somewhere between Ryan's $20M guaranteed and Gilmore's $31M is my guess, probably closer to Ryan's number.

FWIW, Ryan is playing his age-26 season, Gilmore is 27. Butler will be 28 on March 2nd, 2018 and that will pull his number down slightly.

That is a very timely tweet. And very encouraging.

Another

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 20s21 seconds ago
Malcolm Butler says there's no point in feeling sorry for himself. He's just gotta play better. No idea if he's starting Sunday

Phil Perry‏Verified account @PhilAPerry 1m1 minute ago
Butler, FA at the end of the year, admitted there have been times when he's felt sorry for himself but he's realized it's not helpful.

Hoodie Sleeves said:

I think the idea is that the rumors, innuendo, and other media attention drive dissatisfaction in the player, which causes the player to grouse and complain, and then get traded for being a problem.

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Yeah, the get texts from their friends or family about this article or that, and then they are a malcontent, and they don't say exactly the right thing, and it turns into another column, and then it just becomes a thing and the player sucks. Baseball or basketball, you just go out and play, but NFL, you sit around all week, or like we saw with the Saints flirtation with Butler, all off season, and it festers.

Put me in the camp that thinks he'll be fine if the distractions don't become a thing, and while he hasn't played up to a number 1 corner standards, the idea that he's "sucked all season" is too much hyperbole for me.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

Put me in the camp that thinks he'll be fine if the distractions don't become a thing, and while he hasn't played up to a number 1 corner standards, the idea that he's "sucked all season" is too much hyperbole for me.

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Is it too much to ask that if you're gonna "quote" something that it be something actually written by someone in the thread?

soxfan121 said:

Other than the fact that he sucked throughout the preseason and the Chiefs game.

<snip>

That Butler has mostly sucked this season isn't a "media-driven narrative" - it is right there on tape for anyone willing to watch it with an open mind. If the benching helped, then good job coaches. If not, then bad job Butler.

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To be clear: It is your hypothesis that the coaches are making playing time decisions based on a "media-driven narrative"? That the numerous analysts who've pointed out Butler's subpar play are making it up?

soxfan121 said:

To be clear: It is your hypothesis that the coaches are making playing time decisions based on a "media-driven narrative"? That the numerous analysts who've pointed out Butler's subpar play are making it up?

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No. I meant what I said. I am concerned that the way this is being reported, and the way that some fans seem ready to pile on on social media and other places that athletes and people they listen to frequent, creates an environment in which the players' performance and relationship with the teams and fans deteriorates to a point that would be worse than if the player were permitted to simply work through it.

I don't know how I feel about "subpar." If par is replacement level, I don't view him as playing as subpar. If par is how he played last year, then I agree with subpar.

If "mostly sucked this season" and "subpar" are meant to be equivalent, then I don't disagree. "Mostly sucked this season" is kind of a weird thing to say. If it means, "he has sucked the parts where he's sucked, but not sucked other times, so all season, he's at a level a bit above sucked," then I guess I understand. It seemed to me it was trying to communicate that he's been playing like shit, which I think is hyperbole, but if I have not given "mostly" its due, I'm sorry that my response misrepresented what you were trying to communicate.

Which came first, the poor play or the media-driven narrative?

From where I sit (locally), the media spent the entire offseason and most of the summer openly campaigning FOR Butler to get paid. The media-driven narrative from the end of the Super Bowl until training camp was that the Patriots were screwing Malcolm Butler, that the player was indispensible, that the team owed him for several seasons of excellent play at below-market rates, and that giving Gilmore that contract was the equivalent of slapping Butler in the face with a rancid fish.

Then, he played poorly in the preseason. And again in the Chiefs game. He sucked. He was subpar. If "par" is replacement level, he was below that. This was noted by many analysts in disbelieving tones. This was reinforced by the coaching staff benching him. It was confirmed by Butler himself.

He did play better than par in the Saints game. He seems to have realized that "feeling sorry for himself" and allowing distractions to affect his play is unacceptable (to the team, and to his hopes of getting paid after the season).

So, he's MOSTLY sucked this season. On some isolated plays in the preseason he was OK, I guess. Mostly, he sucked. In the Chiefs game, he sucked. In the Saints game, he was better. So, he has mostly sucked this season. If you'd like to claim he's been better than "mostly sucked" I'm all ears. How has he not sucked? What is that based on?

I fundamentally disagree that the "media" has anything to do with this situation. If Butler let the noise of fans or social media in his head, that's on him. There is absolutely, positively no fucking way the coaches have made their playing time decisions based on shit the media or fans say.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

No. I meant what I said. I am concerned that the way this is being reported, and the way that some fans seem ready to pile on on social media and other places that athletes and people they listen to frequent, creates an environment in which the players' performance and relationship with the teams and fans deteriorates to a point that would be worse than if the player were permitted to simply work through it.

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It would be great if the world worked this way. While we're wishing for things to be different than they actually are, I would like to request a pony.

soxfan121 said:

I fundamentally disagree that the "media" has anything to do with this situation. If Butler let the noise of fans or social media in his head, that's on him. There is absolutely, positively no fucking way the coaches have made their playing time decisions based on shit the media or fans say. [snip] It would be great if the world worked this way. While we're wishing for things to be different than they actually are, I would like to request a pony.

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Well, maybe that's right. But the breathless reporting on the internet that this is Jamie Collins redux based on the fact that a guy has "only" played 88 percent of the snaps and that Bill Belichick said "Rowe" but not "Butler" in a conference call is crap. I do think that garbage can make a bad situation worse, especially with respect to a defensive position that involves both physical effort and confidence.

As for how bad Butler has been this year, I don't know what defensive metrics there are about it and I'm not an Xs and Os guy so have nothing to back up my views other than what I see on tv. I'm not sure we'd come to a consensus. I saw a total defensive team failure in game 1, which makes it pretty hard to identify one culprit, since there can be a sum-of-its-parts or weakest-link issue in national league football. In week 2, there were a handful of plays that didn't seem very Butler like to me, but I also recognized a couple of plays that looked like what I'm used to -- he had at least one play where he closed well, one nice pass defensed and I think (if I'm not confusing with Kansas City) a ball that he defensed but didn't get credit because it was out of bounds. He also had at least two tackles where he came up and really put a lick on a guy, that reminded me of the nasty Butler.

There is a lot of shit corner play in the NFL, though. So, as I said, I think "sucked" only really applies if we're judging Butler against what we're used to seeing from Butler. If we're judging him against, "what does an average NFL corner do against two better than average quarterbacks with a front seven that is not getting great pressure," my answer is serviceable, or maybe even a bit better. Obviously, serviceable is not what we're shooting for, but it's two games into the season. We know what he can do when he's good. NESN declaring this to be "this year's disappointing guy that gets booted" already is crap and does more harm than good.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

Well, maybe that's right. But the breathless reporting on the internet that this is Jamie Collins redux based on the fact that a guy has "only" played 88 percent of the snaps and that Bill Belichick said "Rowe" but not "Butler" in a conference call is crap. I do think that garbage can make a bad situation worse, especially with respect to a defensive position that involves both physical effort and confidence.

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We concur - the media unquestionably sucks. But short of shutting off the internet entirely, I'm not sure how we avoid hot takes.

And yeah, it probably does make the situation worse. But if it does, it isn't the media's fault. That's like blaming the sun for shining at noon on Tuesday. If Butler let "the media" into his head and it affected his play, that's on him.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

As for how bad Butler has been this year, I don't know what defensive metrics there are about it and I'm not an Xs and Os guy so have nothing to back up my views other than what I see on tv. I'm not sure we'd come to a consensus. I saw a total defensive team failure in game 1, which makes it pretty hard to identify one culprit, since there can be a sum-of-its-parts or weakest-link issue in national league football. In week 2, there were a handful of plays that didn't seem very Butler like to me, but I also recognized a couple of plays that looked like what I'm used to -- he had at least one play where he closed well, one nice pass defensed and I think (if I'm not confusing with Kansas City) a ball that he defensed but didn't get credit because it was out of bounds. He also had at least two tackles where he came up and really put a lick on a guy, that reminded me of the nasty Butler.

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I'm not going to try to convince you using Xs & Os. Who am I, Greg Bedard? ;-)

I will say that as a fan, I trust the coaching staff completely. So if THEY think Butler hasn't been playing well - and they don't, or they wouldn't have benched him - then, well... he hasn't been playing well (enough). And when Butler himself says he's not played well (enough) then I think we can agree that it isn't a media-driven narrative. They may be exacerbating the situation but the poor play came first.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

There is a lot of shit corner play in the NFL, though. So, as I said, I think "sucked" only really applies if we're judging Butler against what we're used to seeing from Butler. If we're judging him against, "what does an average NFL corner do against two better than average quarterbacks with a front seven that is not getting great pressure," my answer is serviceable, or maybe even a bit better. Obviously, serviceable is not what we're shooting for, but it's two games into the season. We know what he can do when he's good. NESN declaring this to be "this year's disappointing guy that gets booted" already is crap and does more harm than good.

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Oh, for sure. Butler has not performed the way we know Butler can. Measuring him against corners across the league is wasted effort, IMO (too many differences in scheme, opponent, etc.).

I think you're too wrapped up in NESN and what-have-you; those guys are noise. Patriot players are expected, by the coach, to ignore noise and do their job. Butler's admission that he hasn't been himself is a BIG step in the right direction. If he can get himself back on track, it would be very helpful to the team. If he responded to being benched with "I gotta be better" then I think everyone ends up happy.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see him traded given the depth at the position and needs elsewhere. If Breer can believed (ha!) the swap of Butler for Kendricks would be an upgrade for the Patriots this season. Butler is almost certainly playing somewhere else next season and if the coaches think Jonathan Jones and Eric Rowe can fill Butler's role, adding an impact player for the front 7 would be a good outcome.