I think it's a combination of durability and the fact that the best hitters tend to end up either in the outfield or at first base, and outfielders (rightly, for the most part) tend to get more credit for being valuable as all-around contributors than first basemen. Really elite hitters at infield positions other than 1B are rare; among players with at least 5000 PA, the top 25 in career wRC+ includes only only player (Hornsby) who didn't get the majority of his career starts at either OF or 1B.So the top 9 players are, in some order, Musial, Cobb, Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Charleston, and Johnson. That's 8 outfielders and a pitcher. I guess that's just a function of being able to avoid injuries you'd usually get in the infield.
Where is ARod on that list?I think it's a combination of durability and the fact that the best hitters tend to end up either in the outfield or at first base, and outfielders (rightly, for the most part) tend to get more credit for being valuable as all-around contributors than first basemen. Really elite hitters at infield positions other than 1B are rare; among players with at least 5000 PA, the top 25 in career wRC+ includes only only player (Hornsby) who didn't get the majority of his career starts at either OF or 1B.
#52. And yet he's #2 among shortstops (only Wagner was better) and #7 among non-1B infielders (add Schmidt, Mathews, Collins and Lajoie to Hornsby and Wagner). That gives you an idea of the extent of OF/1B dominance.Where is ARod on that list?
Wow, that’s insane.#52. And yet he's #2 among shortstops (only Wagner was better) and #7 among non-1B infielders (add Schmidt, Mathews, Collins and Lajoie to Hornsby and Wagner). That gives you an idea of the extent of OF/1B dominance.
This is a great post, and hits exactly why I am enjoying these so much. I have been waiting on the Cobb piece the entire time I've been reading, and it did not disappoint.... gave me chills, in fact.One thing I appreciate about Pos’ series is how he highlights the range of character types that make up these all time great athletes - the rage monsters (Clemens & Cobb) and the fundamentally decent (Musial), men of deep integrity (Robinson) and men of pure villainy (Lajoie), complex personalities (Teddy Ballgame) and happy extroverts (Buck O’Neil), showmen (Satchel Paige) and quiet superstars (Mike Trout). There is no one way of approaching the world that can get you to greatness. Pos’ list is a showcase for the full spectrum of personalities.
What made Lajoie a villain? I didn’t see anything too awful on his Wikipedia.One thing I appreciate about Pos’ series is how he highlights the range of character types that make up these all time great athletes - the rage monsters (Clemens & Cobb) and the fundamentally decent (Musial), men of deep integrity (Robinson) and men of pure villainy (Lajoie), complex personalities (Teddy Ballgame) and happy extroverts (Buck O’Neil), showmen (Satchel Paige) and quiet superstars (Mike Trout). There is no one way of approaching the world that can get you to greatness. Pos’ list is a showcase for the full spectrum of personalities.
I may have overstated it. Cap Anson was a villain. Lajoie was a scoundrel. As Pos notes:What made Lajoie a villain? I didn’t see anything too awful on his Wikipedia.
As a rookie with Philadelphia, Lajoie would repeatedly come to the ballpark inebriated. Once, after a particularly rowdy night, he got into a fight with a heckler on the way to the park and was arrested. Another time, he showed up so drunk that his manager, George Stallings, put him in the game just to humiliate him. Lajoie promptly made a two-run error, screamed at fans, got pulled from the game and was suspended for four days.
Lajoie was suspended a lot, actually. He got suspended for throwing a wad of chewing tobacco into the face of an umpire (and then chasing down the umpire after the game, threatening him all the way). He was suspended another time for viciously arguing balls and strikes and calling the umpire “crooked” (but this time, at least, sans tobacco). He once grew so mad that an umpire would not replace a baseball that had gone black from dirt and spit and grime, he simply picked up the ball and threw it over the grandstand the way a petulant child might. The game was ruled a forfeit.
Lajoie broke his thumb while battering a future Hall of Fame teammate, Elmer Flick, who said Lajoie had been bullying him for more than a year. Lajoie got into a lot of fights.
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Clarke ... was newly married and asked Lajoie for a day off so that he could go home. Lajoie refused. Clarke sulked and walked over to warm up pitcher Addie Joss. On the first pitch, he stuck out a finger and the ball broke it cleanly. With blood streaming from his hand, Clarke waved it defiantly in front of Lajoie. "Now can I go home?" asked Clarke. He was out five weeks, and Cleveland lost the pennant to Detroit by half a game.
Yow! Lajoie wasn’t a very good manager. From his SABR profile:This was my favorite Lajoie anecdote from his wiki involving a couple other hall of famers, including one with an unfortunate nickname.
Author Fred McMane described an instance during the season between Naps catcher Nig Clarke and Lajoie.
You don’t have to be Alex Cora to steal those signs.As manager, Lajoie was criticized for his rudimentary method of relaying signals to the outfielders. He had a way of wiggling his finger behind his back as notice to his outfield when his pitcher was going to throw a fastball, and wiggling two fingers for a curve. Enemy pitchers in the bullpen often could read Nap's signals, and they were never a mystery to Connie Mack. One contemporary observed of Lajoie, "The great player--artist rather disdained the subtleties of the game and responsibility sat heavily upon him. He failed to lift up lesser players to the batting and fielding heights that he had attained so easily. He knew how to do a thing, but to impart to another how it should be done eluded him."
Even "scoundrel" may be too high-flown. He just sounds like a dick.I may have overstated it. Cap Anson was a villain. Lajoie was a scoundrel. As Pos notes:
Ok, fixed.Even "scoundrel" may be too high-flown. He just sounds like a dick.
Joe has an extended write-up about the incident in his article on Lajoie. Here’s his guess about the Brown’s manager’s motivation:Interesting - the standard account of the 1910 batting title controversy is that the Browns tried to rig things for Lajoie because he, unlike Cobb, was well-liked and popular. I wonder now if this is another story that has been repeated over and over without ever really being truly investigated for accuracy.
https://theathletic.com/1597355/2020/02/17/the-baseball-100-no-39-nap-lajoie/Nobody knows for sure what motivated O’Connor to do what he did on that day, Oct. 9, 1910. Many assumed he did it because he loathed Cobb, which is never a bad guess. Others thought he did it out of admiration for Lajoie, which is also not a bad guess.
Others suggested O’Connor did it because, like so many others, he had big money on the batting race, which is probably the best guess of all.
Big Train today at #7, so that’s it for pitchers (other than Ruth).7 left:
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Barry Bonds
Hank Aaron
Walter Johnson
Ted Williams
Oscar Charleston
Bill James' article on Hal Chase (but really about the whole era and its corruption) in one of the Historical Abstracts is one of the most fascinating (and sad) reads about off-the-field baseball topics I've ever encountered. "There is an evil, a smallness, lust, and greed that lives inside of each of us..."Re Lajoie:
Ah yes, easy to forget how pervasive money and gambling were in baseball at that time.
At the heart of this American game, beneath the strategies, the analytics, the statistics, the sacrifices, the shifts, the legends, the movements, the infield fly rule, there’s a player with a ball and there’s a player with a bat, and they stand 60 feet, 6 inches away from each other.
The player with the ball throws it as hard as he can.
The player with the bat tries to hit it.
That is the spark of baseball, that little piece of magic that rises above and grabs the heart and gives this game something that resembles timelessness. You don’t have to understand anything about stealing signs or linear weights or launch angles or tunneling or working the count to grasp and feel awed by what my friend Jon Hock — who I worked with on the documentary “Fastball” — calls “a primal battle between a man with a stick and a man with a rock.”
They just keep getting better. Today's was outstanding from start to finish.Whenever I read the latest piece, I think it is the best one written, until the next one come out. He is dialed in and hitting them out of the park. I really loved this little bit of writing because it is so poetic..
It’s funny, people talked about his incredible eyesight — measured at 20-15 when he was in the service — but it was actually his hearing that was supernatural.
Ted Williams could hear a single boo in a Fenway Park filled with cheers.
OBP of .499 both years. Just insaneI'll give in on the 1941 MVP because of the 56 game hit streak. While still not defensible at least there's some underlying idea of why it may happen. But the other two?
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Even apart from the hitting streak, DiMaggio in 41 had a tremendous season in his own right, hitting .357/.440/.643 in a terrible park for RHH and playing good defense at a more valuable position.I'll give in on the 1941 MVP because of the 56 game hit streak. While still not defensible at least there's some underlying idea of why it may happen. But the other two?
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And those are only his 4th and 5th highest seasons.OBP of .499 both years. Just insane
Just got a little dusty at my kitchen table. Pos is the best.The Quisenberry one today is my favorite of the whole series so far.
Really good, but a quibble: unless I missed it, I don't think he ever mentioned how Williams was defensively. It's easy to see the offensive stats for all of these legends, so it seems like defense should be a factor in how they're ranked at the very top, so I would have liked to see that mentioned here (and in all of these remaining ones).What an awe-inspiring piece on Williams. Joe Pos is really the best
His career OPS+ is better than Willie Mays' best season. The best description of his defense is, "Who gives a shit?"Really good, but a quibble: unless I missed it, I don't think he ever mentioned how Williams was defensively. It's easy to see the offensive stats for all of these legends, so it seems like defense should be a factor in how they're ranked at the very top, so I would have liked to see that mentioned here (and in all of these remaining ones).
I think that was basically Ted's philosophy on defense as well.His career OPS+ is better than Willie Mays' best season. The best description of his defense is, "Who gives a shit?"
I loved Quisenberry. When I played ball growing up I played SS/P, but when I hit around 15 or so, my velocity stopped increasing and I didn't really throw hard anyway. So I adapted, and I threw like Quisenberry about 80% of the time (until the got comfortable, and I'd come straight over top at a scorching 70 mph). Every once in a while, one of my 60 mph pitches would just float up there on a platter and get crushed, but for the most part 15-17 year old kids had no idea what do to seeing something like this:The Quisenberry one today is my favorite of the whole series so far.
It is odd he didn't mention it much, but I think it is implied that he is ONLY sixth because of his defense. Most obviously, it would be very very hard to rank Aaron>Williams without heavily factoring in defense.Really good, but a quibble: unless I missed it, I don't think he ever mentioned how Williams was defensively. It's easy to see the offensive stats for all of these legends, so it seems like defense should be a factor in how they're ranked at the very top, so I would have liked to see that mentioned here (and in all of these remaining ones).
Agreed. I was initially shocked TW was behind Aaron. Pos usually appreciates peak more than longevity, but I think the difference in defense (and to be fair I don't know the D numbers for Hank) pushed Ted behind Aaron and Charleston.It is odd he didn't mention it much, but I think it is implied that he is ONLY sixth because of his defense. Most obviously, it would be very very hard to rank Aaron>Williams without heavily factoring in defense.
I also think that'll be the top 3 (with Charleston at 5, Aaron at 4). I don't know why, but I think the top 3 order will be either:Still interested to see how he ranks what I assume the top 3 will be- Ruth, Mays, Bonds.