Because if there’s one thing you can count on “gentlemen” to do, it’s narc on each other.I like how they talk about the "gentlemen's agreement" but part of the plan comes from players giving MLB info.
I believe the intent is to end the gentleman's agreement.I like how they talk about the "gentlemen's agreement" but part of the plan comes from players giving MLB info.
Yes. But what I'm trying to say (badly) is:I believe the intent is to end the gentleman's agreement.
The SI article on this strongly implied that he had probably started using the sticky stuff, too. So, probably none unless they were allowing anonymous submissions.I wonder how many of the "scouting reports" were provided by Trevor Bauer... studying film and playing the villain are his two favorite things.
The link you provided is to a soccer article.Eno Sarris in the Athletic told everyone that most pitchers were cheating back in November.
https://theathletic.com/news/emi-buendia-transfer-aston-villa-norwich/oLtwMxqx8LAV
It's good that now MLB is apparently going to do something about this. Hopefully they won't fuck it up, but, Manfred.
MLB should be working on perfecting the baseball as much as possible. It's the single most important part of the game, and everything that happens is based on the ball itself. Find a baseball that pitchers can grip and throw confidently without substances that can also be hit hard without turning the game into home run derby. Everything would get better from there.
It’s all about the ”pitch”The link you provided is to a soccer article.
EDIT: Here’s the proper link:
‘Almost everyone is using something’: Getting a grip on how MLB pitchers are cheating
https://theathletic.com/2183861/2020/11/09/pitchers-pine-tar-grip-mlb-time-to-legalize/?source=user_shared_article
Most umps can't even get the strike zone right, and they've been doing that for years. I'm not optimistic one out of ten of them can walk and chew gum at the same time.Yeah, good luck with this. MLB (as with other dirty, little, not so secret secrets) has know about this for a long time, has turned a blind eye to it for a long time and one could argue has facilitated it for a long time. There was a wink and a nod "don't be too obvious about it" agreement/attitude about this. Players even advocated for it up until recently. Now they're going to place the onus of policing this on the umps? Don't get me wrong this sort of thing should be policed by the umps, but you're going to drop it in their laps now with what sort of guidelines? What level of tolerance? What penalties will be incurred? At what point will players claim it's gone too far?
Gentleman’s agreements are pretty much bullshit, and just the other side of the “unwritten rules of the game” coin.I believe the intent is to end the gentleman's agreement.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember MLB saying during the off-season or at the beginning of ST that they would be policing things much more stringently this season.It sounds like what MLB has done is warn everyone, then stringently collect data for the first half, and now it’s moving forward with enforcement backed up by actual data. I’ll grant you that there have been some stumbling first steps to the enforcement (Bauer Balls, Hat-gate and coming down on some A-ball pitchers first), but I don’t think it’s necessary for MLB to study the issue for a full season before they enforce rules already on the books.I'm sure this will be an unpopular take but I don't really like this being implemented mid-season. I'm all for the foreign substance rule being enforced, but the fact is that it really hasn't been enforced for ages and pitchers have adapted to that reality. Putting pitchers on notice and giving them an offseason to work things out would be fine, but doing so suddenly in the middle of a season is just asking for chaos
You are correct, there was a memo circulated to the owners that was initially reported on in late March: (article). It looks like the memo suggested that MLB would be increasing monitoring and gathering data. While it's better than nothing, a memo promulgated in March that isn't at all specific about enforcement or penalties isn't enough I think, although I agree it's far better than a new policy mid-season with no warning at all.Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember MLB saying during the off-season or at the beginning of ST that they would be policing things much more stringently this season.It sounds like what MLB has done is warn everyone, then stringently collect data for the first half, and now it’s moving forward with enforcement backed up by actual data. I’ll grant you that there have been some stumbling first steps to the enforcement (Bauer Balls, Hat-gate and coming down on some A-ball pitchers first), but I don’t think it’s necessary for MLB to study the issue for a full season before they enforce rules already on the books.
You are right, thanks.The link you provided is to a soccer article.
EDIT: Here’s the proper link:
‘Almost everyone is using something’: Getting a grip on how MLB pitchers are cheating
https://theathletic.com/2183861/2020/11/09/pitchers-pine-tar-grip-mlb-time-to-legalize/?source=user_shared_article
Fines? Suspensions?The Olney tweets above suggest these checks will occur at the end of inning or as a pitcher leaves the game (so it won't affect the pace of play). So if the umps find a pitcher using a foreign substance, what will they do? What's the punishment since the damage/cheating had already been done?
The rumor is 10 day suspension without pay. Unclear if that will stand, particularly if the MLBPA pushes back on it.So if the umps find a pitcher using a foreign substance, what will they do?
Agree with this. The intent should be be cutting down on strikeouts, getting more balls in play, more base runners, more action. That’s the reason to do it. Not kicking off yet another orgy of what about the children, grandstanding/moralizing. I fear that’s what we’re going to get though.No objection to enforcing the rule, especially since spin rates are in part responsible for the ridiculous number of strikeouts. I like that they seem to be giving advance notice too. It would be better if not mid-season, but whatever, I think this is the right decision.
I don't exactly love that so much of the discussion seems to focus on cheating rather than too many pitchers getting too much spin. I just suspect it encourages more endless whining about cheating.
Bart Giamatti didn't leave it to the umps....It's good that now MLB is apparently going to do something about this. Hopefully they won't fuck it up, but, Manfred.
Don't worry, that would require consistency from the people who raged so virulently about steroid cheating and sign-stealing cheating. From the Hall of Fame, Gaylord Perry says there's not much chance of that!That’s the reason to do it. Not kicking off yet another orgy of what about the children, grandstanding/moralizing. I fear that’s what we’re going to get though.
One ball made its way into an NL dugout last week, where players took turns touching a palm to the sticky material coating it and lifting the baseball, adhered to their hand, into the air. Another one, corralled in a different NL dugout, had clear-enough fingerprints indented in the goo that opponents could mimic the pitcher’s grip. A third one, also in the NL, was so sticky that when an opponent tried to pull the glue off, three inches of seams came off with it.
More recently, pitchers have begun experimenting with drumstick resin and surfboard wax. They use Tyrus Sticky Grip, Firm Grip spray, Pelican Grip Dip stick and Spider Tack, a glue intended for use in World’s Strongest Man competitions and whose advertisements show someone using it to lift a cinder block with his palm. Some combine several of those to create their own, more sophisticated substances. They use Edgertronic high-speed cameras and TrackMan and Rapsodo pitch-tracking devices to see which one works best. Many of them spent their pandemic lockdown time perfecting their gunk.
edit: Added Bauer info.Los Angeles this year is Spin City, according to the SI analysis. In March, the league sent a memo to teams to warn them that it would begin studying the problem, collecting those baseballs for analysis and using spin rate data to identify potential users of foreign substances. Officials have focused on four-seam spin rate, because breaking pitches can sometimes be enhanced naturally. But four-seamers are thrown with the hand and wrist behind the ball and with true north-south backspin, so there are fewer variables.
MLB Leaders in Increase in Four-Seam Fastball Spin Rate From 2020 to 2021
Data via Statcast
SI found that through June 2, the Dodgers had the highest increase in year-to-year four-seam spin rate, at 7.01%. The next highest was 4.21%, by the White Sox. That increase and that gap are enormous. The Red Sox came in third, at 4.01%; the Nationals fourth, at 3.07%; and the Yankees fifth, at 2.94%. The league-average increase has been 0.52% this year. (All clubs declined or did not respond to requests for comment.)
Some of this surely relates to personnel. L.A., for instance, traded away Dylan Floro and Adam Kolarek and did not re-sign Pedro Baéz, all low-spin pitchers. They signed Bauer and Jimmy Nelson and traded for Garrett Cleavinger and Alex Vesia, who all spin the ball. Still, every active Dodger pitcher except one has a higher spin rate than he did last year.
Yeah, "mostly" above board meaning they're bending the rules a bit but in line with their "gentlemen's agreement" with the hitters.https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-foreign-substance-crack-down-trevor-bauer-gerrit-cole-show-reduced-spin-ex-mvp-calls-out-coincidence/
""I don't make much of it," Boone told reporters, including NJ.com's Brendan Kuty, prior to Sunday's game. "Gerrit as well of our staff members, I believe, are mostly above board and they'll be able to handle the situation in the right kind of way and it's not going to affect the kind of pitchers they are.""
Heh. "Mostly" above board. I mean, they cheat SOME, just not as much as people might think.
Walk-rates haven't gone down in the last few years as spin rate has become a thing, so I don't think the increased policing of these grip additives will change how frequently walks are issued.Will reduced grip/spin rate inevitably lead to more walks? I'm not certain what the relationship between spin and control is...there's obviously a relationship between grip and control.
Also - what about the issue of some teams playing in climate-controlled environments? There must be some advantage during extreme weather months for pitchers who don't need to deal with the elements. On the other hand, I guess it's the same for every visiting pitcher that day. I guess it's the same for football, too - so probably a stupid question.
Just to play devil's advocate, walks could increase not as a result of something to do with spin rates changing but rather simply due to the sudden change between pitching with sticky gunk and not. It's plausible that even professional pitchers might need a bit of time to adapt to the new grip characteristics and lose some control until that adaptation occurs. So even if things even out in the long run, in the short run there's a plausible reason why control might decrease.Walk-rates haven't gone down in the last few years as spin rate has become a thing, so I don't think the increased policing of these grip additives will change how frequently walks are issued.
Perhaps there was some sort of lesson learned in how not to respond to these sorts of questions from his former teammates.Cole's answer was (seemingly) unprepared. But it was, oddly, shockingly honest and revealing.