Correct on Woj, I was referring to Shams (who definitely seems like he’s much more of Klutch plant)Seeing that Woj is a Nets stooge, I don't think this is a Klutch thing (remember: Woj was the guy saying that the Simmons for Harden deal "wasn't happening" solely as a way to create leverage for Sean Marks). Seems like the simplest reason is that the Nets wanted to build up a better fall guy than the front office - who have done a fucking shit job of surrounding two All-NBA players with a surrounding cast that can compete for a title - and Simmons is perfect because he's a narcissistic doof with no self-awareness.
So they can pretend like "oh, we thought Simmons was going to play, but *wink wink* we never thought this back issue was serious enough to force him out all of the first round, kinda weird that it's persisted this long" and of course people are going to eat it up because they don't like Ben Simmons. Then no one is talking about how the FO picked Patty Mills over Jeff Green or kept Blake Griffin and LMA over James Johnson (or Kessler Edwards over James Johnson) and how much of a bad idea it was to go into the playoffs without a capable wing defender taller than 6'3" who's also not your best scorer.
I mean, Ben Simmons is a legit player too. He's a 3x all-star with a career line of: 15.9 points (.560 FG), 8.1 rebounds, and 7.7 assists, while being an excellent defender. Let's not pretend that he isn't good.LOL at “surprised and disappointed.”
2016 draft:
1. Ben Simmons
2. Brandon Ingram
3. Jaylen Brown
2017 draft:
1. Markelle Fultz
2. Lonzo Ball
3. Jayson Tatum
Ingram and Ball are legit players, but we did a fine job of dodging some bullets in this drafts.
(As to 2017, I 100% believe that Tatum was Danny’s guy all along and Danny would have taken him first if he wasn’t certain he would get him third.)
He's Andrei Kirilenko with better PR (to quote another thread)I mean, Ben Simmons is a legit player too. He's a 3x all-star with a career line of: 15.9 points (.560 FG), 8.1 rebounds, and 7.7 assists, while being an excellent defender. Let's not pretend that he isn't good.
He has serious flaws, but he's still really good.
Trust the process!How did the Sixers manage to draft two complete head cases in back to back drafts? That is a really black mark for that leadership team.
Edit and while Embiid isn’t nearly to that level, he’s kind of out there too (drafted in 2014)
He’s good, albeit flawed, on the court.I mean, Ben Simmons is a legit player too. He's a 3x all-star with a career line of: 15.9 points (.560 FG), 8.1 rebounds, and 7.7 assists, while being an excellent defender. Let's not pretend that he isn't good.
He has serious flaws, but he's still really good.
All joking aside, they really look like the smarter team out there and the hungrier team. Tommy points all around!Yep and the Celtics lead by a landslide in Tommy Points.
Yea that was my stance at the beginning of the season. I was pretty confident he was still really goodI mean, Ben Simmons is a legit player too.Let's not pretend that he isn't good.
He has serious flaws, but he's still really good.
Would anyone honestly take Simmons at this point? I wouldn’t trade any of the Celts starting 5 for himYea that was my stance at the beginning of the season. I was pretty confident he was still really good
BUT it's very fair to question his motivation. Maybe we've already seen Ben's best seasons???
There was a vocal minority asking those very questions last fall.
If someone asked if you could have Marcus Smart's contract or Ben Simmon's contract it's not as black and white as it once was.
I'm looking at that 2016 draft and I think that Jaylen Brown might be the only player form that draft who 1) this year played for the team that drafted him and 2) finished the season with that team. You have Murray who is still on Denver but didn't play this year, and Sabonis who got traded this year....Simmons, Ingram, Bender, Dunn, Hield had all been moved along.I mean, Ben Simmons is a legit player too. He's a 3x all-star with a career line of: 15.9 points (.560 FG), 8.1 rebounds, and 7.7 assists, while being an excellent defender. Let's not pretend that he isn't good.
He has serious flaws, but he's still really good.
Brown has played 6 NBA seasons, Simmons has played 4. Part of value is being there playing. Would anyone, retrospectively, trade Brown's career to date for that of Simmons?edit- whoops didn't mean to quote BJ. Meant to quote Jurak. But I will say that Simmons is a very good player on the court but showing up is obviously important. Edit2- I think it's fair to say Brown was a better pick than Simmons for the teams that drafted them.
How weird is it that the top four picks were the exact same team order in both years? Even weirder is that the teams drafting second and fourth have both made the finals before the Celtics (and Sixers) despite drafting the “wrong” players.2016 draft:
1. Ben Simmons
2. Brandon Ingram
3. Jaylen Brown
2017 draft:
1. Markelle Fultz
2. Lonzo Ball
3. Jayson Tatum
Meh. Kirilenko made 1 All-Star team as a courtesy in his 13 year career. Simmons was selected in each season since his rookie year…..including last season. Who knows what he’ll look like when he returns next year or his motivations but he put Kirilenko to shame on the floor prior to his last playoff series.He's Andrei Kirilenko with better PR (to quote another thread)
Technically, the Tatum year it was BOS-LAL-PHI, but we exchnaged picks so they could draft Fultz who they would have gotten anyway.How weird is it that the top four picks were the exact same team order in both years? Even weirder is that the teams drafting second and fourth have both made the finals before the Celtics (and Sixers) despite drafting the “wrong” players.
I'm being slightly facetious, but worth noting that AK put up identical stat lines to Ben Simmons without playing with anyone nearly as good as Joel Embiid (it was like Carlos Boozer and Matt Harpring around him). Also, All-Star teams? That's a worthy metric? Did you notice Andrew Wiggins making the team this year?Meh. Kirilenko made 1 All-Star team as a courtesy in his 13 year career. Simmons was selected in each season since his rookie year…..including last season. Who knows what he’ll look like when he returns next year or his motivations but he put Kirilenko to shame on the floor prior to his last playoff series.
He did not, though...the passing is a massive differentiator. AK averaged 2.7 assists per game in his career, with a high of 4.3. Simmons averages 7.7 assists. That's a huge part of their games that is wildly different, in an important way.I'm being slightly facetious, but worth noting that AK put up identical stat lines to Ben Simmons without playing with anyone nearly as good as Joel Embiid (it was like Carlos Boozer and Matt Harpring around him).
That’s kinda my point. Any craptastic player having a good year gets one of those final spots as a courtesy whereas Simmons was pretty much an auto-selection. No it’s not a metric but when the comparison is so lopsided I mean. Kirilenko was complete zero on the offensive end…..couldn’t shoot or dribble to set up his passing. Simmons, for all the mocking of him not being a face-up shooter, was/is an efficient scorer and excellent playmaker in addition to being Andrei’s relative equal defensively.I'm being slightly facetious, but worth noting that AK put up identical stat lines to Ben Simmons without playing with anyone nearly as good as Joel Embiid (it was like Carlos Boozer and Matt Harpring around him). Also, All-Star teams? That's a worthy metric? Did you notice Andrew Wiggins making the team this year?
Yes, I was giving him a little leeway for playing in a less offensive era and without the kind of teammates that Simmons has played with (and the fact that people didn't play basketball with 6'9" point guards like they do now). With that in mind, if the four assist difference in their per 100 possessions were whittled down to two, would that make a difference? The rest of the swiss army stats (pts, rebounds, steals, blocks) as well as Ortg and Drtg are pretty much in lock step (though at least AK could shoot free throws).He did not, though...the passing is a massive differentiator. AK averaged 2.7 assists per game in his career, with a high of 4.3. Simmons averages 7.7 assists. That's a huge part of their games that is wildly different, in an important way.
This. Until after he got traded, the only doctor he was supposedly seeing was Dr. Melfi.People acted like there was nothing unusual about Ben Simmons when he was sitting out this season. The guy is afraid to play basketball, IDK what else needs to be said. I wouldn't trust him to play a single game, he's an incredible enigma. Him not playing at all for Brooklyn this year was the least surprising thing ever.
While I agree that these two guys are not at all comparable, the "was/is" in your post is doing a lot of work.That’s kinda my point. Any craptastic player having a good year gets one of those final spots as a courtesy whereas Simmons was pretty much an auto-selection. No it’s not a metric but when the comparison is so lopsided I mean. Kirilenko was complete zero on the offensive end…..couldn’t shoot or dribble to set up his passing. Simmons, for all the mocking of him not being a face-up shooter, was/is an efficient scorer and excellent playmaker in addition to being Andrei’s relative equal defensively.
He was one of those guys who was so good when he was underrated that he became very flawed as he was then overrated later in his career. He had limitations for sure bc of his lack of an offensive game. That’s always been my take on him.What's odd here is that I remember Kirilenko as being a pretty great player?
I agree---I like him and think he was hugely underrated (to HRB's comment I don't know that he got overrated, but he also was never a star because he was so limited offensively). But he also wasn't as good as Ben Simmons...who for all his flaws and the brutal talk radio narratives is a guy every single NBA team would like to haveWhat's odd here is that I remember Kirilenko as being a pretty great player?
What I meant to say was that he was great value on his cheap contract then when he signed his monster deal he spent the latter half of that contract being overpaid for what he provided.I agree---I like him and think he was hugely underrated (to HRB's comment I don't know that he got overrated, but he also was never a star because he was so limited offensively). But he also wasn't as good as Ben Simmons...who for all his flaws and the brutal talk radio narratives is a guy every single NBA team would like to have
He also had an interesting arrangement with his wife!He was one of those guys who was so good when he was underrated that he became very flawed as he was then overrated later in his career. He had limitations for sure bc of his lack of an offensive game. That’s always been my take on him.
An underrated part of this is why is he even standing? He looks like he got up to peePic for those that haven't seen it. Just incredible.
View attachment 51105
Define water carrying? Pretty much everyone her recognizes that we have no idea what he’s going to look like next year.I....I can't believe people are still on here water-carrying for Simmons.
Strus is rather meh. Good shooter, but Bey would be a killer defensive player with a decent shot if you rescued him.Or if they'd kept, and developed, Max Strus?
Hindsight .....
The fact that Ben Simmons is in BAYC really puts the cherry on this sundae.
Bey is better than Strus, no doubt, but Strus would be a huge upgrade on the Aaron Nesmith we've seen to date. Whatever his flaws, Strus is a legit sniper.Strus is rather meh. Good shooter, but Bey would be a killer defensive player with a decent shot if you rescued him.
Holy crap, are we sure Simmons isn't photoshopped in there? The two of them wearing colors amongst a sea of black and white, they just jump right out, you couldn't stage a better picture.Pic for those that haven't seen it. Just incredible.
View attachment 51105
Someone did take it and do some solid photoshop work here (on mobile so can only embed tweet for now): View: https://twitter.com/timisaperson/status/1518251269898526722?s=21&t=Wxu20D98I29UQSjJvVaukAHoly crap, are we sure Simmons isn't photoshopped in there? The two of them wearing colors amongst a sea of black and white, they just jump right out, you couldn't stage a better picture.
Yea his Nets era is just adding more question marks. A lot of us were very critical of Doc/Philly, in regards to Ben, which was fair.Define water carrying? Pretty much everyone her recognizes that we have no idea what he’s going to look like next year.
I keep getting flashbacks to Game 5 against the Bucks in 2019, so I’m firmly in camp #1.So what do people see coming tonight. I see basically 4 possibilities:
1. Celtics win a blowout. Nets are cooked. Kyrie is checked out, Durant is frustrated/checked out. Celtics win in a blowout.
2. Nets win. Celtics look past the Nets and don't really show up themselves. Nets do show up, even Kyrie, and Nets win. This would be something like the reverse of the Celtics game 3 win a year ago.
3. Celtics win a close game. Both teams come to play, as in games 1 through 3, the game is close in the 4th, as in games 1 through 3, but the Celtics, being the superior team, win, as in games 1 through 3.
4. Nets win a close game. Both teams come to play, as in games 1 through 3, the game is close in the 4th, as in games 1 through 3, but this time the Nets get the couple of favorable bounces that might have made the difference in game 1 or 3 and they pull out a win in game 4.
I think I am expecting #1 but I also feel like that might be overconfidence. Thoughts?
I think the Cs will win comfortably. I think BRK has run out of answers. I think KD will have a big box score game but he'll get a lot of shots up and won't be efficient but he's not going out on 11 shots. I think KI will get his shots up too. I would put some - but not a lot - of money on the under on Bruce Brown tonight.So what do people see coming tonight. I see basically 4 possibilities:
1. Celtics win a blowout. Nets are cooked. Kyrie is checked out, Durant is frustrated/checked out. Celtics win in a blowout.
2. Nets win. Celtics look past the Nets and don't really show up themselves. Nets do show up, even Kyrie, and Nets win. This would be something like the reverse of the Celtics game 3 win a year ago.
3. Celtics win a close game. Both teams come to play, as in games 1 through 3, the game is close in the 4th, as in games 1 through 3, but the Celtics, being the superior team, win, as in games 1 through 3.
4. Nets win a close game. Both teams come to play, as in games 1 through 3, the game is close in the 4th, as in games 1 through 3, but this time the Nets get the couple of favorable bounces that might have made the difference in game 1 or 3 and they pull out a win in game 4.
I think I am expecting #1 but I also feel like that might be overconfidence. Thoughts?
I'm feeling #4; a lot of the dogs in the first round have come up with a win under desperate circumstances. And the Nets are (relatively speaking) less of an underdog than some of the other squads getting railed in the first. But then again, I've been relatively pessimistic compared to most here.I think I am expecting #1 but I also feel like that might be overconfidence. Thoughts?
Only the guy named "Shams" is surprised.Agreed.
LOL @ “surprise”
You can’t make up the silliness of this all. Get the brooms out for tomorrow night boys!
I'm glad I'm not the only person that thought of this when AK-47 entered the discussion.He also had an interesting arrangement with his wife!
I agree---I like him and think he was hugely underrated (to HRB's comment I don't know that he got overrated, but he also was never a star because he was so limited offensively). But he also wasn't as good as Ben Simmons...who for all his flaws and the brutal talk radio narratives is a guy every single NBA team would like to have
The fact that anyone would still be saying the bolded at this point is sort of odd. Simmons has missed a ton of time at this point and there's no way anyone knows what he'll look like when he comes back... IF he ever comes back. To me, Simmons' issue isn't with his back... his issues seem to be more mental than physical.. and that's getting brushed under the rug like that will all just go away. There seems to be just as much evidence of Simmons never playing again as there is evidence that he'll come back as an all star at this point. Perhaps that's going too far in the other direction, but I think his mental health has been severely overlooked here.Define water carrying? Pretty much everyone her recognizes that we have no idea what he’s going to look like next year.
But.. to cut out assists, which is what Ben Simmons as a point guard is known for, seems to be wildly unfair to Simmons in this comparison.Yes, I was giving him a little leeway for playing in a less offensive era and without the kind of teammates that Simmons has played with (and the fact that people didn't play basketball with 6'9" point guards like they do now). With that in mind, if the four assist difference in their per 100 possessions were whittled down to two, would that make a difference? The rest of the swiss army stats (pts, rebounds, steals, blocks) as well as Ortg and Drtg are pretty much in lock step (though at least AK could shoot free throws).
Like I said, I'm being slightly facetious with the comparison here - we'll see if Ben Simmons makes more out of his tremendous physical talent than AK. Being that he's going to be 26 and he's pissed away most of the core years of his development, I'm not optimistic.
I think they'll start with energy, but if the Celtics start to pull away they might give up 130. That defense isn't working hard in the second half if it's slipping away. I'm as big a green teamer as you'll find so naturally my vote is that the Celtics blow them out and put the finishing touches on this masterpiece of a series.My head tells me the Nets jump out to an early lead again, like they did in games 2 and 3. And from there it goes one of two ways: the Celts come back and eventually are too much for the Nets, as games 2 and 3 played out; or the Nets win going away.
That said, rooting like hell for #1.
Boston @ Brooklyn | Scott Foster (#48) | Sean Wright (#4) | Brian Forte (#45) | Derrick Collins (#11) |