https://www.si.com/fannation/nba/fastbreak/news/2021-22-nba-awards-media-poll-results-all-nba-teamsYes around then. Probably during the Brooklyn series.
Being named first team all NBA helps with an argument of belonging in the top 5, although not equivalent obviously.
Wait, have the announced all-nba already? Or are you going off projections from the votes that have been made public?Being named first team all NBA helps with an argument of belonging in the top 5, although not equivalent obviously.
I don't remember them being announced, although I could have missed it. I'm saying that were he, that kinda ends the speculation. Or at least it shows that he's finally getting the recognition that he's in that group. The guys that you have to beat out at Forward is a nightmare.Wait, have the announced all-nba already? Or are you going off projections from the votes that have been made public?
I assumed that players were not in order within tiers. It makes more sense that way.I hesitate to put JT in the top 5 (or at the top of tier 2). He has it all, but a bit too frequently he has off games.
Achieving better game-to-game consistency (at his high level) is his biggest growth area!
Is there something that shows he has more frequent off-games than others? What's your definition?I hesitate to put JT in the top 5 (or at the top of tier 2). He has it all, but a bit too frequently he has off games.
I'll take a superstar that plays 75 games with a handful of off nights over a guy that plays 50 games eight days a week. Because all those old, injured guys have off nights too.I hesitate to put JT in the top 5 (or at the top of tier 2). He has it all, but a bit too frequently he has off games.
Achieving better game-to-game consistency (at his high level) is his biggest growth area!
Because All NBA doesn't reflect the actual five best players but sticks with positions there are always going to be undeserving players on the first team because they're centers or point guards. And old guys always cruise by on reputation. See, for example, Kobe Bryant, last selected to NBA's All Defensive team about five years after he stopped playing any. Part time players also shouldn't be on any top five list.I think if there is one thing that would keep Tatum from being a "Top 5" in a few years, it's that the next generation of NBA superstars vying for the Top 5 is really quite amazing. Not only Giannis, but also Embiid, Jokic, Luka, Morant, and possibly Booker and Trae Young will all be vying for First Team All NBA honors along with Tatum. And you still have the holdovers in LeBron, Steph, Kawhi, KD, and AD that will compete for the same if and when they are healthy for a full season (a big if for most of them at this point).
It's really quite an era, and note that the canvas is still being painted for the draftees from 2019-21.
Some of us we’re arguing Tatum was a top 10 player a year ago (he was) and that once he got going this year he was pushing himself into the top 5 conversation (he was). I think at this point the question should be is Tatum on the cusp of being a perennial MVP candidate and the answer is yes. I think Tatum has clearly eclipsed the mid-30s stars at this point (Lebron, Durant, Harden, Kawhi, Steph), with Curry the guy I’m least certain about because I’m not convinced he cannot still single handedly warp games. I don’t think Tatum is better than Giannis, but is clearly in the next tier with Embiid, Jokic, and Doncic (plus maybe Steph).A couple of months ago the debate was "Is Tatum top 10?". Now it has switched to "Is Tatum top 5?". When exactly did that happen? After the Brooklyn series maybe?
That is a solid point. But in the playoffs, off nights can be dangerous.I'll take a superstar that plays 75 games with a handful of off nights over a guy that plays 50 games eight days a week. Because all those old, injured guys have off nights too.
I hate the complaining as much as anyone but I do think that he’s going to start getting a good amount of the calls he bitches about next year.That is a solid point. But in the playoffs, off nights can be dangerous.
In general: other than Giannis, there is no one I would trade JT for (assuming a 3 yr contract).
Maybe I am leaning critical since JT being an indisputable top 5 (or top 3) is so close. The skills/strength/smarts are all there. It's just a matter of mastering emotions and the allocation of energy
It’s certainly true that availability is a differentiated ability but I also wonder whether there is a bit of a ding for lack of consistency.That is a solid point. But in the playoffs, off nights can be dangerous.
In general: other than Giannis, there is no one I would trade JT for (assuming a 3 yr contract).
Maybe I am leaning critical since JT being an indisputable top 5 (or top 3) is so close. The skills/strength/smarts are all there. It's just a matter of mastering emotions and the allocation of energy
Man you’re so f’ing pessimisticKevin Garnett and Ray Allen aren’t walking through that door.
Tatum’s most positive contribution to the Celtics unsuccessful comeback attempt last night was getting hurt.Man you’re so f’ing pessimistic
He sucked. We all know he sucked. He knows he sucked. Let’s see how he responds. I will be shocked if they don’t tie this up tomorrow night.Tatum’s most positive contribution to the Celtics unsuccessful comeback attempt last night was getting hurt.
As will I, but to come up that small in a game where there was no Butler in the second half underscores to me that Tatum isn't yet in the same league as Curry and Doncic. The good news is his youth and time to get there, but there's literally zero margin for the best of the best to lay the kind of egg he did last night in the conference finals, and neither Jaylen nor Marcus nor Al are capable of playing Garnett to his Pierce.He sucked. We all know he sucked. He knows he sucked. Let’s see how he responds. I will be shocked if they don’t tie this up tomorrow night.
Well, I’ll co-sign that. But I think that whether and how he responds is a completely open question for me. Neither him playing his best ever game or his worst ever game would surprise me at this point.He sucked. We all know he sucked. He knows he sucked. Let’s see how he responds. I will be shocked if they don’t tie this up tomorrow night.
Tatum was truly awful last night. If he’s even just bad the Celtics win the game.Well, I’ll co-sign that. But I think that whether and how he responds is a completely open question for me. Neither him playing his best ever game or his worst ever game would surprise me at this point.
Luka shot 6-18 with 7 TOs in Game 1 of his series. He wasn’t much better. End of the day, it was a frustrating missed opportunity but we can survive this if they get their heads out of their asses. But if they don’t win this series, my “what if” lamenting will probably start with this game. They were exhausted during 2nd half of Game 1. No excuse for last night’s performance. They just weren’t ready, from coach on down.As will I, but to come up that small in a game where there was no Butler in the second half underscores to me that Tatum isn't yet in the same league as Curry and Doncic. The good news is his youth and time to get there, but there's literally zero margin for the best of the best to lay the kind of egg he did last night in the conference finals, and neither Jaylen nor Marcus nor Al are capable of playing Garnett to his Pierce.
You truly think that there is a large chance he plays poorly or “worst game ever” in game 4? He’s come back EVERY time from a poor game with a great game so far this post-season. Despite his poor games, he’s still been as good as any other player on any team this post season. Better than Luca, fwiw.Well, I’ll co-sign that. But I think that whether and how he responds is a completely open question for me. Neither him playing his best ever game or his worst ever game would surprise me at this point.
Not a large chance he plays his worst game ever, no. But a lot more of a possibility of that than I'd expect from a top 5 player.You truly think that there is a large chance he plays poorly or “worst game ever” in game 4? He’s come back EVERY time from a poor game with a great game so far this post-season. Despite his poor games, he’s still been as good as any other player on any team this post season. Better than Luca, fwiw.
No disagreement--this is still a very winnable series. But you don't get too many games with the opponent's star unexpectedly going out for all of the second half on home court. To piss that opportunity away means that I too will lead with this game in the "what ifs" should we not prevail.Luka shot 6-18 with 7 TOs in Game 1 of his series. He wasn’t much better. End of the day, it was a frustrating missed opportunity but we can survive this if they get their heads out of their asses. But if they don’t win this series, my “what if” lamenting will probably start with this game. They were exhausted during 2nd half of Game 1. No excuse for last night’s performance. They just weren’t ready, from coach on down.
I don't want to get into a pissing contest - but this is an absurd statement.Despite his poor games, he’s still been as good as any other player on any team this post season. Better than Luca, fwiw.
He's super talented - like MVP level talented. He's also young enough that he could very well shed this next piece - but right now he's more Dominique Wilkins or Karl Malone than he is Larry Bird or Michael Jordan.When you get your lunch money stolen by a 37 year old washed up PJ Tucker you ain’t an alpha dog yet. As Larry Bird once said your probably a sissy. Alpha Dogs don’t coast in the playoffs and they show up in the biggest games.
It’s not like Bird didn’t have bad playoff games, particularly when he was Tatum’s age. He was terrible in Games 4 and 5 of the 1980 ECF. Pretty bad in Games 3-5 of the 1981 finals. Bad games happen. I don’t know why every time it happens there has to be a referendum on Tatum’s manhood. Particularly when he’s got a pretty established record at this point of picking himself up and atoning in the next game.When you get your lunch money stolen by a 37 year old washed up PJ Tucker you ain’t an alpha dog yet. As Larry Bird once said your probably a sissy. Alpha Dogs don’t coast in the playoffs and they show up in the biggest games.
Even when Bird was shit shooting in Game 3-5 in the 81 finals he still was close to a triple double in every one of those games. And those games are forgotten because the Celtics won Games 3 and 5 and went on to win the title. That’s a big difference. 10, 6, 4 in 41 minutes at home in a game needed to hold home court is absolutely pathetic.It’s not like Bird didn’t have bad playoff games, particularly when he was Tatum’s age. He was terrible in Games 4 and 5 of the 1980 ECF. Pretty bad in Games 3-5 of the 1981 finals. Bad games happen. I don’t know why every time it happens there has to be a referendum on Tatum’s manhood. Particularly when he’s got a pretty established record at this point of picking himself up and atoning in the next game.
I don’t think PJT is washed either - if Milwaukee had resigned him, we’re probably not having this conversation (or maybe we’re having it a week ago instead).
Sissy…right. Definitely are not better ways to characterize his play (and character?).When you get your lunch money stolen by a 37 year old washed up PJ Tucker you ain’t an alpha dog yet. As Larry Bird once said your probably a sissy. Alpha Dogs don’t coast in the playoffs and they show up in the biggest games.
It lies somewhere in the middle honestly. I’m not getting into the “sissy” or “doesn’t want it enough” talk, that should only be in game threads.Tatum was horrible, but some of the above is embarrassing. You could tell he didn’t have a feel for his jumper, and the Heat were taking away driving lanes any time he put the ball down. So because of that, Tatum played hesitant/uncertain, and that’s a killer in the nba.
You can say he played like shit, because he did. Also if you don’t know the etymology of a word, look it up. No need to guess when we all have google at our finger tips.This side discussion is a little on the nuts side.
1) First, sissy is straight from the Bird quote. Is that famous statement/assessment of his not allowed to be quoted or referenced? Asking for a friend.
2) It's amusing the claim is "sissy" is both misogynistic and homophobic at the same time. I'm not sure of the etymology of the word, guessing sister. I get it's a pejorative, not sure where it tied over to be homophobic. (FWIW, I think that pejorative lacks accuracy, I'd rather fight a guy over a line in the dirt than a women motivated by protecting her family. In that context women are the nastiest and fiercest fighters there are.)
3) I think we as a group need to get our virtue signaling down. It's ok to say someone has Saturn Balls as a compliment... but that implies that balls are required or valued to do the job - which could be construed as misogynist. We can't call someone a pejorative based on anatomical parts if they are female parts - but to hell with being a decent person and not using a pejorative, just use male parts and call them a dick or an ass. That's just fine, no need to aim for being better - just use a pejorative from the ever shrinking approved list. *IS* there a politically correct way to say that Tatum is playing sans balls?
Back to basketball...
I'm not sure of appropriate terminology for what Tatum was playing with/without. I made a post about last night in the game thread, and specifically didn't reference Tatum because I thought we were mostly in agreement on the fact his play was absent something. Many others were calling out Tatum, so I didn't see the need to raise the noise level. I decline to say that Tatum was absent passion or effort. I don't see the need to use a pejorative at all, these are humans, not robots. Personally, I'm less judgmental about physical mistakes versus mental ones unless there is a pattern of physical mistakes that suggests a failure to grasp a situation (like JB getting stripped by Oladipo 4-5 times on basically the same scenario in the 4th). I think those of us (my hand is raised) who for the last year have been calling for Tatum to pass the damn ball instead of an yet another ISO, have to live with the growing pains that expectation comes with. Deep in a series against a quality team, patterns emerge, and Tatum has a pattern in how he kicks out above the circle - which is where a lot of his turn overs have come from (credit Spo/MIA scouting). He has to be given a chance to adjust back, or grow. He may not do it in time for this series, unfortunately. Similarly, other teams are now anticipating the driver getting deep into the paint, under the basket and whipping the ball out to the off hand corner (pass traveling above the baseline). MIA has picked off a few of that pass type, MIL did later in their series as well. Occasionally that works, but starting the drive assuming that corner pass is open when trapped in the paint is no longer valid. Where/how will the Cs adjust?
I do not like how Tatum was 'less' than his normal self. I'm not interested in finding a PC way to say it, or to use a pejorative at all. He needs to deliver more for the Cs to be successful, and if he can't get there this series, then it's been a great run that I hope the entire team learns from. I do think that Smart's injury is significant, and any absence of his will put even more pressure on Tatum to deliver. If he tries to go supernova, I hope it's within the confines of what made the team successful in the second half of the season.