White also played 28 mins/game. I wonder how many of those 37 averaged more minutes. Strictly from the eye test, he's a better than average rebounding guard.They were solid across the board, but TL and Tatum were the only ones near the top at their respective positions. White averaged 3.6 rebounds per game which isn't bad for his size, but there were 37 guards who averaged more. Jaylen also averaged a career high 6.9 per game.
I think this is where the counting numbers on rebounding stats are misleading.How is this possible? They were the number one team in the NBA in defensive rebounding last year. They are full of good rebounders.
The coach only plays 7 guys anyway, might as well make them the best 7 you can.They must be really banking on developing some of these projects like Walsh, because that's draft capital gone AND depth gone.
I don't think the upgrade from Brogdon to Jrue was worth TL and picks. Don't like this trade at all.
Most of the guys in front of him averaged more minutes, but this cuts both ways (most of the guys behind him averaged fewer minutes). Among guards, he was 45th in TRB% and 38th in rebounds per 100. He's not bad, but he's also nothing special.White also played 28 mins/game. I wonder how many of those 37 averaged more minutes. Strictly from the eye test, he's a better than average rebounding guard.
Per game rebounds aren't really a good way to measure rebounding skill. Gimme those reb% numbers!They were solid across the board, but TL and Tatum were the only ones near the top at their respective positions. White averaged 3.6 rebounds per game which isn't bad for his size, but there were 37 guards who averaged more. Jaylen also averaged a career high 6.9 per game.
Smart was, by far, the best guard in the league in the "box out" stat that NBA tracks, and he was near the top of the league among all players regardless of position.I think this is where the counting numbers on rebounding stats are misleading.
The Celtics might not have had guys pile up big rebounding numbers, but they rebound well as a team because they box out as well as anyone.
Smart is always among the best at this for guards, Grant was also really good at it while being undersized.
If everybody boxes their guy out, one of your teammates should have position to secure the ball. Doesn't matter who gets it, as long as a guy wearing green does.
It's why I've always argued against people that say Smart is a bad rebounder. Rebounding isn't just skying over everybody to grab the ball.
Don't forget Jrue. He's been arguably the best rebounding PG in the game for the last decade. In todays game of missed 3's creating long rebounds the days of having a big gobble up the majority of the boards are long gone. It truly is more of a team effort now and on top of that most teams retreat off a shot rather than crash for offensive boards.Porzingis is not much of a rebounder. Neither is Al. Tatum might be the only plus rebounder on the team.
Stevens did have a moment this offseason where he could revamp the roster around Tatum and Brown. The finals loss in 2022, the disappointing end in 2023, and the decision to pay Brown got him that, assuming the Celtics owners were willing to invest (and they have shown that they were). Also the bringing in of Cassell and the General. All of those moves taken together are 1) a statement of belief in Tatum and Brown, 2) an acknowledgment that the rest of the roster and the coaching staff needed upgrades, 3) a willingness to break out the checkbook and make those upgrades. This is how you double down on your stars. At the same time, Tatum and Brown have no business complaining about any binkies being shipped out. They had 2 chances at a title with the prior core and failed.There were a lot of reports in the playoffs last year that
- the players pushed to bring back 2 bigs against Philly
- players lobbied for Grant to play
- staff wanted to play Hauser more but it was infeasible wrt internal team politics
Well, guess who's gone now. I wish they had Grant (more so than Rob), but they think Hauser is ready for more minutes, and if he isn't, they'll play Brisset/Svi/Walsh.
There was enough smoke about Tatum lobbying for his binkies that I'm pretty sure there was some fire, and Brad did a good job turning those guys into elite NBA players instead of keeping the more marginal guys who were causing chemistry issues.
I also didn't think the Brogdon stuff was real, but it's sounding more and more like he was a locker room issue. Calling out the team's effort with the "defense" he played? Cmon, man.
Totally agree with all that.Stevens did have a moment this offseason where he could revamp the roster around Tatum and Brown. The finals loss in 2022, the disappointing end in 2023, and the decision to pay Brown got him that, assuming the Celtics owners were willing to invest (and they have shown that they were). Also the bringing in of Cassell and the General. All of those moves taken together are 1) a statement of belief in Tatum and Brown, 2) an acknowledgment that the rest of the roster and the coaching staff needed upgrades, 3) a willingness to break out the checkbook and make those upgrades. This is how you double down on your stars. At the same time, Tatum and Brown have no business complaining about any binkies being shipped out. They had 2 chances at a title with the prior core and failed.
I think this ascribes far too much intent to the way this offseason played out. Acquiring Porzingis was a rare opportunity to upgrade talent in a very significant way and lock in a very good player on a reasonable extension. If that trade had included Brogdon as originally structured, the Jrue trade never happens. Instead the Clippers pulled out at the last minute and Stevens was forced to add Smart to that trade. Grant Williams leaving was a product of him simply not being worth the price he was paid and cap realities (plus Hauser probably already being better and maybe a bit of Stevens forcing the players to accept that). Having lost Smart, Jrue being available was too good an opportunity to pass up.There were a lot of reports in the playoffs last year that
- the players pushed to bring back 2 bigs against Philly
- players lobbied for Grant to play
- staff wanted to play Hauser more but it was infeasible wrt internal team politics
Well, guess who's gone now. I wish they had Grant (more so than Rob), but they think Hauser is ready for more minutes, and if he isn't, they'll play Brisset/Svi/Walsh.
There was enough smoke about Tatum lobbying for his binkies that I'm pretty sure there was some fire, and Brad did a good job turning those guys into elite NBA players instead of keeping the more marginal guys who were causing chemistry issues.
I also didn't think the Brogdon stuff was real, but it's sounding more and more like he was a locker room issue. Calling out the team's effort with the "defense" he played? Cmon, man.
Yep. KP is an elite rim protector and Jrue is an elite defender. I don’t think the overall D has suffered at all, and the team has gotten MUCH better offensively.And yet.... Upgraded the defense
Between the new tournament and Silver's new rules about sitting healthy players, the Celtics stars will be getting a lot of playing time. And coaches are hardwired to win games with whatever lineup is on the floor.Is Griffin really going to retire at this point? For sure, nothing is guaranteed about the Celtics’ chances of success, but do you really give up a really good chance of a title?
The other thing I would say is that the Celtics should approach the regular season like the preseason. We’ve got an awesome top 5, but are pretty thin after that. No reason to have anyone go down from some meaningless game against the Wizards. Heck, I’d be even willing to forfeit all the games against Philly to save the wear and tear on our bigs.
Lots of minutes available for Jordan Walsh. Let’s hope he comes up big.
Brad is going to deal the Celtics' late firsts as long as it can land players that will help them contend.They must be really banking on developing some of these projects like Walsh, because that's draft capital gone AND depth gone.
I don't think the upgrade from Brogdon to Jrue was worth TL and picks. Don't like this trade at all.
I think this is a big risk. The goal for this regular season should be to set up for the playoff run. That means 1) not leaning too hard on the starters and 2) developing or aquiring some semblance of a playoff bench.The other thing I would say is that the Celtics should approach the regular season like the preseason. We’ve got an awesome top 5, but are pretty thin after that. No reason to have anyone go down from some meaningless game against the Wizards. Heck, I’d be even willing to forfeit all the games against Philly to save the wear and tear on our bigs.
Lots of regular-season bench minutes for Hauser/Kornet (& PP)Is Griffin really going to retire at this point? For sure, nothing is guaranteed about the Celtics’ chances of success, but do you really give up a really good chance of a title?
The other thing I would say is that the Celtics should approach the regular season like the preseason. We’ve got an awesome top 5, but are pretty thin after that. No reason to have anyone go down from some meaningless game against the Wizards. Heck, I’d be even willing to forfeit all the games against Philly to save the wear and tear on our bigs.
Lots of minutes available for Jordan Walsh. Let’s hope he comes up big.
Aren't you guys saying the same thing?I think this is a big risk. The goal for this regular season should be to set up for the playoff run. That means 1) not leaning too hard on the starters and 2) developing or aquiring some semblance of a playoff bench.
Mazzulla showed that last year he was too focused on regular season wins. This year, he's got the double edged sword of having a much better coaching staff but also having his potential replacement(s) right there on his coaching staff. And he's got a better team 1 through 5, but a weak/inexperienced bench.
He needs to understand his job.
They have 5 1st rounders and 8 2nd rounders in the next 5 drafts. What are you talking about?They must be really banking on developing some of these projects like Walsh, because that's draft capital gone AND depth gone.
I don't think the upgrade from Brogdon to Jrue was worth TL and picks. Don't like this trade at all.
Somewhere Tony Battie is thinking his number may yet be retired by the C’s.
I wasn't intending disagreement.Aren't you guys saying the same thing?
In that case, I will pile on and agree that they should really de-prioritize the regular season.I wasn't intending disagreement.
I'm surprised this back and forth has gone on so long, with wingspan and height, without anyone introducing ... standing reach!Smart was 6'2" w/o shoe's at the combine, Holiday was 6'3.25"
we're just ignoring the team that's gone to 2 of the last 4 Finals from the East? They haven't gotten any worse.In that case, I will pile on and agree that they should really de-prioritize the regular season.
Homecourt means very little for this team, and the Finals is going to come down to Boston or Milwaukee, barring key injuries. So it doesn't matter which round you face the Bucks in.
We sure about this? They lost 2 key parts of their rotation this offseason and a third who was, generously, right up against the expiration date the last two years is now a year older.we're just ignoring the team that's gone to 2 of the last 4 Finals from the East? They haven't gotten any worse.
And if you start saying "let's punt the Philly games", "let's punt the Bucks games", "let's punt the Heat games"... pretty soon you haven't challenged yourselves enough and end up with your seed falling enough that you play 3 elite opponents in the conference (as the Heat did last year) instead of 1-2.
My plan would be to give each of the top 6 at least a 2-week in-season vacation. Hellenic Flu, somehow keeps going around. Back problems, y'know? But give them enough time to rest and prevent issues down the road. We can schedule around having everyone available for certain key games, and avoid having more than one of the top 6 out at a time (barring real injuries). Can give Porzingis two of those vacations if we like.
They lost Vincent and Strus. They got a lot worse (pending further moves).we're just ignoring the team that's gone to 2 of the last 4 Finals from the East? They haven't gotten any worse.
And if you start saying "let's punt the Philly games", "let's punt the Bucks games", "let's punt the Heat games"... pretty soon you haven't challenged yourselves enough and end up with your seed falling enough that you play 3 elite opponents in the conference (as the Heat did last year) instead of 1-2.
My plan would be to give each of the top 6 at least a 2-week in-season vacation. Hellenic Flu, somehow keeps going around. Back problems, y'know? But give them enough time to rest and prevent issues down the road. We can schedule around having everyone available for certain key games, and avoid having more than one of the top 6 out at a time (barring real injuries). Can give Porzingis two of those vacations if we like.
And if you're doing that, it makes *MORE* sense to GFIN now, and also to get contracts that you could trade with the picks you get for Jaylen to get someone new to pair with Tatum.I'm starting to think lovegtm is on to something ... the only way having all these expensive players on the roster makes sense, if you want to retain some flexibility for the future, is by trading Jaylen either in '24 or '25 (my bet would be '24).
Of the heat's playoff rotation - by minutes, Adebayo, Herro, Strus, Butler, Martin, Vincent and Lowry, plus occasionally D. Robinson - they've lost Vincent and Strus, and yes Lowry is old. Strus was sign-and-traded to Cleveland for a bag of balls, not sure how much positive asset value he had in the first place, and they had to staple picks to Oladipo to get him out of town to the Thunder. Vincent signed with the Lakers for 3 / $33 and is rated as a negative value player (-1.13) by DARKO (as is Strus), so it may have been addition by subtraction for them. Meanwhile Miami had several prospects level up, while also signing Josh Richardson as a Vincent replacement and Thomas Bryant as an Adebayo backup.We sure about this? They lost 2 key parts of their rotation this offseason and a third who was, generously, right up against the expiration date the last two years is now a year older.
Vincent was critical for them in the playoffs. Maybe they think he won't be that guy again, but Richardson has little chance of being what Vincent was then. Strus was also a big part of their rotation.Of the heat's playoff rotation - by minutes, Adebayo, Herro, Strus, Butler, Martin, Vincent and Lowry, plus occasionally D. Robinson - they've lost Vincent and Strus, and yes Lowry is old. Strus was sign-and-traded to Cleveland for a bag of balls, not sure how much positive asset value he had in the first place, and they had to staple picks to Oladipo to get him out of town to the Thunder. Vincent signed with the Lakers for 3 / $33 and is rated as a negative value player (-1.13) by DARKO (as is Strus), so it may have been addition by subtraction for them. Meanwhile Miami had several prospects level up, while also signing Josh Richardson as a Vincent replacement and Thomas Bryant as an Adebayo backup.
Windy saying Philly wasn’t one of the teams that Holiday was willing to extend with, really caught my attention. A lot of times, that’s because of uncertainty over that teams best player being there long term. Everyone knows how close Embiid and Tatum are, just saying lol.And if you're doing that, it makes *MORE* sense to GFIN now, and also to get contracts that you could trade with the picks you get for Jaylen to get someone new to pair with Tatum.
ELITE. We have by far the best defensive backcourt in the league. And because they are both amazing at navigating screens, makes it a lot harder for offenses to be able to force mismatches with Porzingis in space.How is Jrue against defending quicker guards? That is where the Celtics have really struggled in recent years. Of course, no one is really shutting down Trae Young types, but it seems like they have absolutely killed the Celtics for awhile now.
They didn't sign Brown this year to trade him next summer. 2025 is a possibility, I do agree.I'm starting to think lovegtm is on to something ... the only way having all these expensive players on the roster makes sense, if you want to retain some flexibility for the future, is by trading Jaylen either in '24 or '25 (my bet would be '24).
At the very least, having Jaylen's contract to deal puts every available star in play. It's funny that one of the best fits for Jaylen to fetch assets would be Portland--it sucks they re-signed Jerami.Windy saying Philly wasn’t one of the teams that Holiday was willing to extend with, really caught my attention. A lot of times, that’s because of uncertainty over that teams best player being there long term. Everyone knows how close Embiid and Tatum are, just saying lol.
ELITE. We have by far the best defensive backcourt in the league. And because they are both amazing at navigating screens, makes it a lot harder for offenses to be able to force mismatches with Porzingis in space.
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How sure are you about that?They didn't sign Brown this year to trade him next summer. 2025 is a possibility, I do agree.
A lot of nba people think multiple superstars could ask out by next summer. If that’s the case, Jaylen will likely get offered up, IMO.How sure are you about that?
Brad is completely ruthless, and I doubt he'd hesitate to trade Jaylen if the right guy came available next summer.
I don't disagree but isn't the idea that they need to cut salary?A lot of nba people think multiple superstars could ask out by next summer. If that’s the case, Jaylen will likely get offered up, IMO.
Yes, and one great thing about his contract is that, even with the 100% matching at the 2nd apron, there is no one he doesn't match.A lot of nba people think multiple superstars could ask out by next summer. If that’s the case, Jaylen will likely get offered up, IMO.
This off-season showed that Stevens isn't a tinkerer. As long as he is in the seat and he has Tatum as a centerpiece, Stevens is likely going to do whatever is necessary to maximize the talent around him.How sure are you about that?
Brad is completely ruthless, and I doubt he'd hesitate to trade Jaylen if the right guy came available next summer.
I absolutely think one implication of Porzingis/JH being here is Brown is more tradeable than he was in a different roster configuration, as soon as he's eligible to be traded. I don't predict or expect it but see no reason to artificially assume it can't happen or until when (past the trade restriction as a newly sgned player, obviously)They didn't sign Brown this year to trade him next summer. 2025 is a possibility, I do agree.
It's wild to look back at the roster he inherited (including the Kemba contract situation) and the roster he has now, with only one future pick owed.This off-season showed that Stevens isn't a tinkerer. As long as he is in the seat and he has Tatum as a centerpiece, Stevens is likely going to do whatever is necessary to maximize the talent around him.
I’m thinking Wyc is all in, for the next few years at least.I don't disagree but isn't the idea that they need to cut salary?
If the only way you can criticize a trade is to use rhetorical sleight-of-hand to turn "possibility of health problems", which every team has, into "certainty of health problems"... then it's a pretty damn good trade imo.The Celtics weren’t exactly lacking depth before, but it wasn’t like they ran 12 deep. Unless they have some guys to develop quickly who can make the rotation by January, the Celtics got a lot thinner without many solutions readily available to them. Porziņģis without Robert Williams puts the Latvian big man and Al Horford under pressure to be available and healthy for big stretches of the season. That’s a lot more Luke Kornet to sop up minutes unless the Celtics think they can play small with Oshae Brissett as a very small-ball big. Maybe they convert Neemias Queta into a full roster spot?
Holiday is better than Smart, but you’ve gone from a three-guard rotation of Smart, Brogdon and Derrick White to a pairing of Holiday and White with maybe a sprinkling of Payton Pritchard. That’s not nearly as inspiring for the role players around Tatum and Brown.
Boston had already tried to trade Brogdon this offseason, and his medicals are what kept him in town. Maybe it wouldn’t have been a harmonious season for him with Boston if he stayed, but Pritchard hasn’t been a reliable rotation guard up to this point.
I like the idea of Holiday being on the Celtics. I like the idea of Porziņģis being on the Celtics. But this talent restructuring to get it done doesn’t make as much sense when building this rotation. I normally try to grade trades for the individual move itself, with a sprinkling of how it relates to other moves. But this feels like one where we need to mention the imbalance to the rotation these two moves have created.
Maybe the Celtics’ ceiling has been raised, but the floor seems a lot shakier. If the Celtics can get this roster to the postseason healthy, they’ll have a chance to prove my skepticism wrong.
I read this same article and was kind of amazed at how bad it was. I have no idea how you could give this trade anything below a B.Zach Harper of The Athletic gives the trade a C from the Celtics perspective:
https://theathletic.com/4918052/2023/10/01/jrue-holiday-trade-grades-celtics-blazers/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
His logic:
If the only way you can criticize a trade is to use rhetorical sleight-of-hand to turn "possibility of health problems", which every team has, into "certainty of health problems"... then it's a pretty damn good trade imo.