Wow that SUCKS. I like Bourne a lot. But yeah, just play the kids and see how it goes. Probably not well, but if so, it's a higher draft pick.
2023 Patriots Injury/Roster Moves Thread
- Thread starter Dr. Gonzo
- Start date
Agree, and I imagine there's no choice now that Parker is likely out a while too. Might as well roll with Douglas, Thornton and Boutte as the top 3 and see how they do.
injury luck definitely exists, since injuries tend to be heavily luck/chance based. Injury TALENT generally doesn't.
Yeah, I didn't phrase it exactly as I meant. I was more thinking that some teams have good luck and some bad luck in any given season with injuries
FWIW, there were years when the Pats were absolutely ravaged by injuries and were still excellent. I always thought that was part of BB's brilliance -- building depth in a way that few NFL teams valued.
Hell, in the 2003 season we were smacked hard by a ton of injuries early in the season. I vividly recall thinking, when we were 2-2, that if we could just hold serve for the next ~6 weeks and be 5-5 when some of the guys would be returning, that we could make a playoff push.
Instead we didn't lose again that season.
The Patriots have had some really good injury luck in past few years, both in terms of their own players and the timing and importance of injuries to opponents. Now they're getting the mother of all corrections.
The Pats "luck" with injuries this season has indeed been bad, with 4 of their best players (Judon, Gonzalez, Marcus Jones, and now Bourne) being lost for the season.
One thing also with injury luck is it isn't just about number or even severity, it's value and grouping. Feels like after losing your QB, number one indicator league wide of a terrible year compared to the previous year is O-line injuries early in the season (or camp). O-line is the toughest position to stock with any kind of vaguely competent depth, and they need to work together in a way few other positions do.
I’m more bullish on Juju than most here but the bolded kind of made me laugh:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/10/30/sports/patriots-receiver-kendrick-bourne-is-out-season-with-torn-acl/
probably did, fully healthy (including the line) I think this is a .500ish team same as the last few years. The torrent of early O-line injuries/illnesses sunk the season before it started.
I don't disagree but this is very unlikely to go well. Two of these guys can't beat out JJSS's corpse in practice.
I don't know what's worse, if he's taking jabs due to his lack of usage or if he's just accepted the reality of being the backup and is talking about it openly.
Or—and I had to read it a few times to get there—he’s saying us AND the backups. Either way, I laughed a little.
the 2003 team had some injuries but the OL only missed 6 total games to injuries, the starting secondary only missed 2 total games, the key players on the front 7 missed 21 cumulatively (Vrabel led with 7 games missed, Washington 6)
when you have guys like Seymour, Harrison, Law playing almost every game and a very good albeit not GOAT version of Brady and stability and quality along the OL, it’s a bit different than what they’ve dealt with this year
Even in 2004 when Colvin and Law went down, they still had Harrison, Bruschi, McGinest, Seymour, Warren, Johnson and Vrabel going almost every game.
easier to absorb losing one or two key pieces when you have good health (and good talent) at the other spots. And a good QB and solid OL covers up a lot of flaws
Wonder if Bill offers Bourne a deal, something they've done in the past, re-sign a guy at a discount while he rehabs.
Pats ink rookie cornerback Alex Austin.
https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/11/02/source-patriots-signing-buffalo-bills-draft-pick-to-open-53-man-roster-spot/
https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/11/02/source-patriots-signing-buffalo-bills-draft-pick-to-open-53-man-roster-spot/
View: https://twitter.com/Patriots/status/1720558919037186231?t=1EwiWyD_mEkKPT0jVaMhnA&s=19
Anderson to IR as the O-line injury apocalypse continues
Anderson to IR as the O-line injury apocalypse continues
Assuming it's a "simple" ACL tear Bourne will probably will be back close to the start of next season, so I'm sure plenty of teams will be interested in signing him.
Maybe they will get some discount coming off an injury, but it's not like he won't play next year at all, so probably won't be a huge one.
I kind of doubt Bourne is desperate to return to the Pats to be paired up with Mac/unknown QB
I think the market for a guy who won't be back to 100% likely until late in the FA period if not camp/early season is going to be fairly small. Now, maybe he wants to test it, but makes some sense to make him a reasonable but discounted offer when you're the only one who can and see.
A little worrying for Anderson. He missed most of camp with an illness, and was listed with illness on the team’s injury and practice report this week.
The #Patriots claimed RB Jamycal Hasty off waivers from the #Jaguars.
https://x.com/mikegarafolo/status/1724185864534642710?s=46&t=WQi6iqIXzyd2nQDr6B-03Q
https://x.com/mikegarafolo/status/1724185864534642710?s=46&t=WQi6iqIXzyd2nQDr6B-03Q
I think it was Reiss who speculated Montgomery's days were numbered when the Patriots claimed Hasty
Still strange to me that the Pats went into the season without a true receiving back. I know Stevenson and Elliott can catch and are more well rounded than some of the “feature” backs they’ve had over the years but a staple of the Pats offense has always been those intermediate/deep shots on wheel routes, lining a RB out wide or even in the slot, etc. Not having a guy like White, Vereen, Faulk or even Woodhead was an odd roster building choice. Maybe they thought Montgomery or Strong could be that guy but the former has never showed much in 7 years in the league other than a tendency to get hurt and the latter never showed much period.
regardless of who is coaching next year, they’re going to need to invest in some RB in the off-season. Doubt Zeke comes back, Stevenson - as much as I loved him last year - will be on the last year of his deal and hasn’t shown enough this year to be a rare second contract type RB. Someone with long speed ideally. Need a guy who can take one to the house or at least be some semblance of a big play threat
regardless of who is coaching next year, they’re going to need to invest in some RB in the off-season. Doubt Zeke comes back, Stevenson - as much as I loved him last year - will be on the last year of his deal and hasn’t shown enough this year to be a rare second contract type RB. Someone with long speed ideally. Need a guy who can take one to the house or at least be some semblance of a big play threat
Presumably, a new coach won’t carry as many of the Slater/Schooler/Board/Davis types. 2 S, a WR, and a LB tied up in these ST-only players. At least 2 or 3 of these spots would open up for a 3rd down back, a T, a LB or some other more valuable position type.
The issue isn't the roster spot, which they could easily clear up in a variety of ways. The issue is they went into the year with Ty Montgomery coming off injury and zero competition.
I don't see specialist 3rd down back as a miss this year. Not that many teams carry them, and given you have 2 very good all-around backs (and tried out a 3rd in Fournette), I don't see the major appeal of taking 2 well rounded guys who can do both (and Elliott is a pretty good blocker) off the field for a guy who maybe is a slight passcatching upgrade, but signals you're unlikely to run, and is probably not a top blocker.
I'm curious who people even would have carried?
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2023/all/running-back/all/
Those are the FA who signed last year. I definitely would rather Zeke on 3rd downs than anyone they could have added. Perine was the top paid 3rd down back... Zeke is better than him by a lot.
I'm curious who people even would have carried?
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2023/all/running-back/all/
Those are the FA who signed last year. I definitely would rather Zeke on 3rd downs than anyone they could have added. Perine was the top paid 3rd down back... Zeke is better than him by a lot.
I think the signaling thing is overblown; most of the time the James White guy plays, the game situation already removes the run threat. There's no value in keeping the defense "honest" against the run on 3rd-and-9 or in the two minute drill. But I agree the potential upgrades were pretty marginal and this is like 12th on the list of issues with the offense.
I'd note... James white was also a really good RB, if he came into the league now he'd be a lead back. Everyone is so much better at passcatching from RB now, and guys i that I think the 3rd down/pass back is going away outside of a place to stash really undersized guys who you can't trust on certain runs.
Do we actually think the whole "We never should've gone away from the fullback" thing is meaningful?
It'll be interesting to see if Marcus Jones gets some more offensive run next year. I thought he was a great change of pace look.
Well you’re ignoring a few things here
first, Elliott was signed late in camp. It looked like they were content going into the season trying Montgomery and Strong as the 3rd down/long distance/receiving back guy. So at the time they signed Zeke, every other halfway decent back was off the market. Of course that’s also ignoring that they could have drafted Spears or Achane instead of Mapu. Zeke seems to only have been added when the in house guys flamed out. I’d absolutely rather have Samaje Perine, and his 9.5 yards per reception and reliable 3rd down abilities than Ty Montgomery.
secondly, the issue isn’t that Elliott isn’t a good back. He clearly still has some gas in the tank. But he’s not much of a big play guy these days. He’s also limited in the way you can use him. Like Stevenson, Zeke can catch and give you a little after the catch, but he’s not a guy you can line up all over the formation, or expect to run a deep wheel route. He’s not going to catch 8 balls out of the slot or out wide like we’ve seen Vereen, White or Faulk do.
The issue I have with the roster construction is that this offense has very little home run hitting ability. A guy like Mostert (who knows if he would have left Miami but he was available) or Achane actually has the ability to take a pass or a draw to the house or convert a 3rd and 17. Stevenson and Elliott might be better overall backs but they’re not big play guys, or at least haven’t been this year.
lastly, the idea that putting a worse player on the field and taking Zeke or Stevenson off the field doesn’t really make sense. Most running backs these days come off the field fairly often. Having a 3rd guy who can come on the field in obvious passing downs and fit those personnel groupings a bit better or offer more long speed isn’t making the offense more predictable or preventing you from utilizing your better backs. There are just some down and distances or opponent personnel groupings where having a faster, shiftier guy who can run a more diversified route tree makes sense.
Perine would be in place of Zeke not Montgomery, they weren't similar contracts. I don't know that I agree Zeke (or similar) wasn't the plan... they worked him out, they worked out Fournette. There were always options in FA. I also think that drafting a RB in the 3rd would have been pretty crazy, they had one of the better 3 down backs in the league, they have a million holes, and they could pick up a really good backup (they did) for just reasonable money.
Elliot is a much better RB than Perine, and not much different as a receiver They average similar YPC for their careers, but Zeke has done it on way higher volume.
If the question is a lack of explosive RBs, that's very different from a specialist pass catching RB, though even then, I think there also is a tendency to think we don't have explosive backs because people see every snap of ours and not other teams. Rham was tied for 3rd in 30+ yard rushes last season, was top 10 in 20+ yard rushes. He's graded out as one of the better (and more explosive) backs the last few years. Though there is also a case that explosive plays are more about O-line and defensive coverage than anything else and that if you swapped Mostert and Rham this year, Rham would be destroying those light fronts like Mostert and Mostert would be struggling (or hurt).
Overall though, I think our RB room was good this year, and there wasn't any reason to change how they approached it. Where they made mistakes was Line and WR mostly.
I don't think we can reasonably call the RB room "good". It's just not as bad as QB/WR. The Pats rank 22nd in both total rushing yards and YPC. They're tied for last in 20+ yard runs (3 all season). Despite that generally poor performance, they run the ball on 1st down more than most teams, and others who've struggled as much in YPC rush far less, obviously needed given (again) how bad the passing game is.
The only real saving grace is how many good backs are likely to be available next season. An unusual number of lead backs are hitting free agency, over a dozen. I expect this is why the Pats went so shallow and short with their room this year.
I think that rushing success has very little to do with the RBs and a great deal to do with a bad/injured line and defenses stacking the box.
This year Rham is getting 2.3 YBC/A as a comparison it's 3.5 for Mostert in MIA. Now a LITTLE bit of YBC can be RB dependent, but a lot of it is about the quality of blocking, especially when you see guys in the their prime like Rham see a big drop year over year.
Our RBs are good, maybe not great, but we have one guy in Rham who has shown he can be a clear NFL starter, and one who was a starter and has aged into top-end platoon player.
There is a lot more to a run game than the RBs.... that said, I expect we'll add a RB in the offseason, maybe 2, because the lifespan is short and you don't generally want to pay them unless it's CMC.
As to the bolded, 2 of those 3 20 yard runs were by Demario Douglas and Tyquan Thornton, not our running backs. Mac Jones longest run of the year was 18 yards, Zeke's longest run this year is 17 yards. Rhamondre had the long touchdown run of 64 yards. His next longest run of the season is 15 yards.
I don't give a shit how bad the offensive line is, how bad the QB's are, or if the defense puts 11 men in the box, those two guys have had 290 rushing attempts this season. They should have accidentally been able to run for a second one that went for 18 yards at some point.
They haven't, because they simply aren't good NFL running backs. Fuck me, the Chicago Bears suck, and Foreman (who looks like he moves like I do) has a 22 yarder, Khalil Herbert has a 34 yard and a 24 yard run, even their third strong rookie, Roschon Johnson has a 29 yarder. When it comes to 20 yard runs by running backs, the Carolina Panthers have more than the Pats 3-1.
I don't know on what planet, by what metric, our running backs can be viewed as anything other than how I used to refer to Legarrette Blount in 2016 as Mr. Minimum. They get you the minimum amount of yards that a true NFL running back should get on a given play. Blount had 18 touchdown in 2016, so folks raved about him, while I was watching holes all over the place that he couldn't get to in time.
And to get back to the fullback question, this is why you need one. This is a plodding, slow offense with slow running backs who have no lead blocker, and are getting half their handoffs from a dead stop out of the shotgun. No head of steam, so by the time they reach a hole, it's closed up. Derrick Henry is about to turn 30 years old, has more mileage on him than anyone over the last 5 seasons, and he can still break runs while facing stacked boxes. Now, let me go check another thread, where someone tell me that Trent Brown is a road grader, one of the best in the game at run blocking, and how the offensive line is really coming along, so I can wonder how we can go from talking about how much better they look in that thread, while blaming them for the fact that Rhamondre and Zeke still can't do shit.
I couldn’t agree more with @NextBigThing8184 and @Deathofthebambino regarding our RBs. Like literally every other position group on offense, RB was poorly constructed. No breakaway speed from anyone via running or receiving. Ty Montgomery sucks, that signing was DOA. Thank goodness Zeke isn’t totally washed, or we’d really be screwed. It’s a mediocre bunch that seems good because the rest of the O is putrid.
*edit* 30 seconds after I posted this I watched AJ Dillon take a 5 yard pass, run over 3 people, and take it 34 yards downfield. No one on the Pats can do what he just did.
*edit* 30 seconds after I posted this I watched AJ Dillon take a 5 yard pass, run over 3 people, and take it 34 yards downfield. No one on the Pats can do what he just did.
They obviously lack an actual receiving back, but as far as running the ball goes, they're well served with Elliott and Stevenson. I mean, they're fine. There's only one running back who matters anyway and he's in San Francisco, they desperately need to add a 3rd down back, but otherwise it's a position I don't want resources to be spent on.
Rhamondre did those kinds of things his first two seasons. Why he can't do it this season, I don't know. He was a freight train that ran past and over people his first two years.
Also...what the heck was up with JJ Taylor? Must be horrible in pass protection, because every time that guy touched the ball, he was pretty electric. For a team with precious few playmakers, to cut a guy who seemed to have real playmaking ability was odd, unless he had some serious deficiency that he could not overcome.
They’re going to have to spend resources on the RB room. Rham is a FA after next year and Zeke is surely gone this offseason. They need another body back there. Maybe another mid round guy or FA signing. You definitely don’t need to spend too much there nor do we have the luxury of doing so.