2017-18 NBA Regular Season Game/Observation Thread

Cesar Crespo

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Jokic since February 1st: 20 games, 20.3 points, 10.8 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.9 bpg on .552/.515/.853 shooting.

Last 33: 18.9/10.9/7.3/1.1/0.8 on .495/.407/.827 shooting.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I mentioned this last season, but since leaving the Boston Celtics, Rajon Rondo is 174/480 .363 from 3 point range in 242 games. Jrue Holiday is also having a good season that is going mostly unnoticed. Granted, he's still not worth the monster deal he got. It's really too bad Cousins got injured.

Also, on paper the Raptors make no sense and as of right now, there are 18 teams over .500 in the NBA and only 12 below. Despite all the tankathon talks, none of the bad teams are historically bad either. We are going to have a few good basketball teams missing the playoffs.
 

Kliq

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I mentioned this last season, but since leaving the Boston Celtics, Rajon Rondo is 174/480 .363 from 3 point range in 242 games. Jrue Holiday is also having a good season that is going mostly unnoticed. Granted, he's still not worth the monster deal he got. It's really too bad Cousins got injured.

Also, on paper the Raptors make no sense and as of right now, there are 18 teams over .500 in the NBA and only 12 below. Despite all the tankathon talks, none of the bad teams are historically bad either. We are going to have a few good basketball teams missing the playoffs.
Yeah Davis has gotten a lot of credit for carrying New Orleans once Boogie went down, but his supporting cast has stepped up as well. Rondo has played well, and Mirotic has been solid. Holiday's contract is too big, but when healthy he is a good two-way player that does give them another player besides Davis who can create his own shot. They have even got something out of the corpse of Emeka Okafor, who is someone averaging 13 and 12 with 3 blocks per 36 minutes despite having not played in the NBA for FOUR years.

Jokic is such a fun player to watch; very unique and maybe the most versatile offensive player in basketball. He does so many things well except play defense.

Out of all the tankers I find Chicago the most egregious. I'm not 100 percent sure Markkanen's back spasms are not legit; but they are holding out all of their key guys to avoid wins. Why would you not want your prized 20 year old rookie to NOT play in games that don't matter? It seems counterproductive to the whole process of building around young talent; to be holding the young talent away from games so your team can lose. It's one thing for veterans to be sitting; but holding out young guys from getting reps is worse imo.
 

ElUno20

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So much one on one ball from both these teams. Have the last four years taught us nothing? Is this really the style that's going to beat the warriors?
 

Kliq

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Harden has twice as many points as CJ and Dame have combined; yet Portland is still in the game.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Well, that game was entertaining at the end. CP3 is, once again, gimpy. Any post-season struggles are going to see him limp even more.
 

ernieshore

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I was at the Houston/Portland game. Damn - that was fun to watch. And as a former season ticket holder at Wake, it was great to see CP3 and Aminu light it up.
 

jmm57

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35/7/17 on 19 shots for Lebron

Most assists without a turnover in NBA history did they just say?
 

jon abbey

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Not true. There have been plenty of 18 and 19 assist games with no turnovers, including one by Rondo. Chris Paul had 20 and 0 a couple of years ago.
Ah, apologies, I was just repeating what they said on the game although admittedly it did sound wrong.
 

scottyno

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50 points in the second half for Toronto, so something changed.

Watching the Wizards and Spurs, and the one thing that stands out is how much harder San Antonio plays.
raps 12/18 for 3 1st half 3/16 for 3 2nd half
 

ElUno20

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Lebron is incredible. That's it. That's all. Can he get popped for PEDs already? This is insane.
 

luckiestman

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Lebron is incredible. That's it. That's all. Can he get popped for PEDs already? This is insane.

It would be interesting to see what the NBA would look like with serious drug testing. I don’t actually want to find out, but I’m curious how much of a difference it is making.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Cavs win, TOR 79-64 in the first half, CLE 68-50 in the second half.
The East still has to go through LeBron no matter how much weight people place on the Cavs coasting through most of these regular season games. They were without Thompson, Korver, Nance, Hood and Osman tonight too. Zizic, Green, and Calderon have stepped up recently and tonight George Hill was lights out.

This is going to be an epic playoff series if it happens.
 

mauf

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It would be interesting to see what the NBA would look like with serious drug testing. I don’t actually want to find out, but I’m curious how much of a difference it is making.
I think the anti-inflammatories these guys take to get through 90+ games over 7-8 months are a greater concern than any PEDs they may be taking.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The East still has to go through LeBron no matter how much weight people place on the Cavs coasting through most of these regular season games. They were without Thompson, Korver, Nance, Hood and Osman tonight too. Zizic, Green, and Calderon have stepped up recently and tonight George Hill was lights out.

This is going to be an epic playoff series if it happens.
LeBron is my GOAT (yes, over Jordan) so any team with him in his current form is a tough draw, regardless of whom he has around him, and especially at home in Cleveland. He was a beast again tonight.

That said, the story of this game is the Raptors defense breaking down coupled with the Cavs not missing. They shot 60.3% from the field and 62.5% from three!!! Their season averages are 47.6% and 36.8%. I know the pushback is that the personnel has changed and that Love was out for a while. But you will need to make a stronger argument than that to convince me that 60% shooting from the field and even better from deep is sustainable. Because it isn't.

I am not yet ready to write Boston off because if they can get everyone back in time for the second round, the Celtics coached by Stevens can play with anyone in the East. But the Raps and Cavs are your odds on ECF finals teams and it should be great. I still take Toronto, even after tonight's Cavs victory has the hot takey crowd re-annointing them as the team to beat in the East.
 

BigSoxFan

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Umm, it’s not hot takey to think that the team to beat is the one with (arguably) the best player of all-time playing as well as he ever has. Records mean nothing come playoff time. I’ll believe an Eastern Conference team can beat prime LeBron 4 times when it actually happens.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Its not hot takey if you have held the belief that Cleveland was the team to beat, at least since the trade deadline. The numbers don't support that position. However I will grant you that statistically superior teams with better records have and will fall to teams with worse numbers but with better talent.

Toronto will have home court in the EC throughout the playoffs. Their defense is amongst the best in the league (top five in D-rating) and their offense is even better (top three O-rating). Allowing for the trades, Cleveland is 19th in D-rating since the All Star break (small sample size but entirely with their new line-up) and fifth since the break in O-Rating (the Raptors are second fwiw).

Again, LeBron is playing out of his mind right now and, Harden-love aside, is the true MVP of the NBA. But I won't believe that they can shoot 60% throughout a seven game series, especially with no home court advantage, until I see it. Your results may vary...
 

HomeRunBaker

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LeBron is my GOAT (yes, over Jordan) so any team with him in his current form is a tough draw, regardless of whom he has around him, and especially at home in Cleveland. He was a beast again tonight.

That said, the story of this game is the Raptors defense breaking down coupled with the Cavs not missing. They shot 60.3% from the field and 62.5% from three!!! Their season averages are 47.6% and 36.8%. I know the pushback is that the personnel has changed and that Love was out for a while. But you will need to make a stronger argument than that to convince me that 60% shooting from the field and even better from deep is sustainable. Because it isn't.

I am not yet ready to write Boston off because if they can get everyone back in time for the second round, the Celtics coached by Stevens can play with anyone in the East. But the Raps and Cavs are your odds on ECF finals teams and it should be great. I still take Toronto, even after tonight's Cavs victory has the hot takey crowd re-annointing them as the team to beat in the East.
It works both ways too as Toronto wasn't going to shoot 13-17 in three's as they did in the first half to build their lead either. The difference in games that matter (read: playoffs) is that Toronto has nobody to matchup defensively with LeBron, particularly in the final 6 minutes of a game and he completely takes Valanciunas out of the game as Toronto can't defend the pick-n-roll with him.....LeBron shredded them in the 1st quarter and V hardly played after that. Poeltl isn't much better and using Siakam as their wing "stopper" as much of a fan I've always been of his isn't fair to this 2nd year player.

You read way too much into the Cavs regular season pre-season while underestimating the difference that Kevin Love makes to that team. Just like last year, 90% of these games mean little to them. Tonight did versus Toronto who beat them by 40 in Canada when Isaiah shot like 2-19 while making VanVleet look like Steph Curry. Nothing hot takey about the Cavs being the favorite to make the EC Finals when the oddsmakers numbers agree.
 
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BigSoxFan

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Its not hot takey if you have held the belief that Cleveland was the team to beat, at least since the trade deadline. The numbers don't support that position. However I will grant you that statistically superior teams with better records have and will fall to teams with worse numbers but with better talent.

Toronto will have home court in the EC throughout the playoffs. Their defense is amongst the best in the league (top five in D-rating) and their offense is even better (top three O-rating). Allowing for the trades, Cleveland is 19th in D-rating since the All Star break (small sample size but entirely with their new line-up) and fifth since the break in O-Rating (the Raptors are second fwiw).

Again, LeBron is playing out of his mind right now and, Harden-love aside, is the true MVP of the NBA. But I won't believe that they can shoot 60% throughout a seven game series, especially with no home court advantage, until I see it. Your results may vary...
Toronto is very formidable as is Boston if Kyrie, Jaylen, and Marcus are all healthy. But I’m taking LeBron in the proverbial “gun to my head” test. With that said, I think this is the most vulnerable he’s been since 2010.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
If Steph Curry posted a stat line like Lebron did tonight it leads sportscenter and gets the front page of ESPN.com. For Lebron it is just a random Tuesday night.


This is great -
 

Sam Ray Not

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If Steph Curry posted a stat line like Lebron did tonight it leads sportscenter and gets the front page of ESPN.com. For Lebron it is just a random Tuesday night.
Lol, poor ol' unheralded LeBron.

Fwiw: this season Curry has a similar ast/tov ratio to LeBron (2.03 to 2.09), with significantly higher scoring volume (29.5 to 26.5 pts per 36), much better scoring efficiency (.675 to .620 true shooting) and a much more positive on-court impact (net +11.1 points per 100 to -2.3).

Obviously, Iron Man James has crushed him terms of durability (2598 to 1605 total minutes played). But on a per minute basis, Curry's been the better player, imo.

That said, 35 pts, 17 dimes and 0 turnovers is totally insane. Definitely not just a random Tuesday night.
 
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jon abbey

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Also Curry has three teammates better than any of LeBron’s and that is even with Love back. CLE would be a 25 win team without him, GS would still win 50 with no Curry, I think.
 

BigSoxFan

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Also Curry has three teammates better than any of LeBron’s and that is even with Love back. CLE would be a 25 win team without him, GS would still win 50 with no Curry, I think.
Yeah, Curry is great but he can’t carry a team the way LeBron has.
 

TiredParent

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I am having difficulty understanding how this win is a significant step for Cleveland? They scored 132, shot over 60% from the field( and from 3),Lebron basically played a perfect game and they only won by 3 at home. If anything, it illustrated that their offense has to be perfect in order to eke out a win against a good team. They cannot stop anyone of defense, so the question remains, as it has been since early in the season, can they do this offensively for 12 games against some combination of Washington/Philly/Boston/Toronto? Everyone seems so focused on "Can xyz beat Lebron 4 times", but I think the really question is can his supporting staff historically over-perform enough to match Lebron.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I am having difficulty understanding how this win is a significant step for Cleveland? They scored 132, shot over 60% from the field( and from 3),Lebron basically played a perfect game and they only won by 3 at home. If anything, it illustrated that their offense has to be perfect in order to eke out a win against a good team. They cannot stop anyone of defense, so the question remains, as it has been since early in the season, can they do this offensively for 12 games against some combination of Washington/Philly/Boston/Toronto? Everyone seems so focused on "Can xyz beat Lebron 4 times", but I think the really question is can his supporting staff historically over-perform enough to match Lebron.
LeBron played a nearly perfect game due to him being a nightmare matchup problem for Toronto who used poor Pascal Siakam 26 minutes as their best option. The Cavs were also forced to start Calderon and Green, play them a combined 65 minutes, while also using Zizic and Holland in their rotation with Korver, Thompson, Hood, and Nance out of the lineup. Over the last 6 games covering two seasons the only time the Raptors have beaten Cleveland was when the Cavs sat LeBron, Kyrie and Love in the final game of last season and earlier this year when Isaiah was singlehandedly sabotaging the Cavs season. They did get stops defensively throughout the 2nd half and down the stretch so not being able to stop anyone isn't what occurred last night against the upcoming 1-seed.

The game was significant as it magnified the matchup problem that the Raptors continue to have with LeBron which positively affects the working environment of his teammates in getting them open looks, etc. particularly in the 4th quarter. Was this not apparent even with his lesser skilled role players on the floor last night?
 

kelpapa

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Ah, apologies, I was just repeating what they said on the game although admittedly it did sound wrong.
I didn't hear what they said, but he's the first player to have 35+ points, 15+ assists and 0 turnovers. That may have been what he was referring to.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Yeah, Curry is great but he can’t carry a team the way LeBron has.
Except for the part where the Warriors have been much worse without Curry, while the Cavs (this season) have weirdly been a bit better without LeBron. Yeah, Curry’s teammates rock, but none of them has had close to the impact of Curry (Thompson +3.5, Durant +0.2, Green +0.6, Iguodala +1.3).

I'd still probably agree with the premise due to LeBron's preternatural durability, but I don't think we've seen much evidence that, when healthy, "Curry can't carry a team the way LeBron has." Before KD came around, Curry carried a team to 171 wins (??) and a championship over two seasons. Yeah, you want to build a specific type of team around him (long, versatile defenders and playmakers), but you also want to build a specific type of team around LeBron (3 and D guys who can shoot lights out and like playing off ball).

Anyway, sounds like Curry may be the first of the Big 4 Wounded Warriors off the injured list starting tomorrow, so we may get to see for a few games how well he carries the team without KD, Klay, or Dray. I'm pretty confident he'll do so rather well. He's in the rare group of players whose efficiency seems to rise with increased usage, and at this point he's basically a data point all his own with respect to the historic usage/efficiency curve (or at worst 1a/1b with 2016 Steph Curry).

Of course, we're only talking about offense; the strongest argument for LeBron (or Durant or Kawhi or AD) over Curry is their ability to impact the game defensively. But I think that narrative doesn't fly as well this season (to date, anyway) given LeBron and the Cavs' consistently horrific defense. The question then becomes how much of that is age-related decline and how much of it is LeBron coasting on that end during the regular season, before flipping the switch in the playoffs and vaporizing everyone. I think people tend to underrate the age factor (when decline comes, I think it tends to show up on D before O) but I've also seen LeSwitch enough times that I'm not betting le farm that he won't make it back to the finals for the 8th straight season.
 
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BigSoxFan

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Except for the part where The Warriors have been much worse without Curry, while the Cavs (this season) have weirdly been a bit better without LeBron. Yeah, Curry’s teammates rock, but none of them has had close to the impact of Curry (Thompson +3.5, Durant +0.2, Green +0.6, Iguodala +1.3).

I'd still probably agree with the premise due to LeBron's preternatural durability, but I don't think we've seen much evidence that, when healthy, "Curry can't carry a team the way LeBron has." Before KD came around, Curry carried a team to 171 wins (??) and a championship over two seasons. Yeah, you want to build a specific type of team around him (long, versatile defenders and playmakers), but you also want to build a specific type of team around LeBron (3 and D guys who can shoot lights out and like playing off ball).

Anyway, sounds like Curry may be the first of the Big 4 Wounded Warriors off the injured list starting tomorrow, so we may get to see for a few games how well he carries the team without KD, Klay, or Dray. I'm pretty confident he'll do so rather well. He's in the rare group of players whose efficiency seems to rise with increased usage, and at this point he's basically a data point all his own with respect to the historic usage/efficiency curve (or at worst 1a/1b with 2016 Steph Curry).

Of course, we're only talking about offense; the strongest argument for LeBron (or Durant or Kawhi or AD) over Curry is their ability to impact the game defensively. But I think that narrative doesn't fly as well this season (to date, anyway) given LeBron and the Cavs' consistently horrific defense. The question then becomes how much of that is age-related decline and how much of it is LeBron coasting on that end during the regular season, before flipping the switch in the playoffs and vaporizing everyone. I think people tend to underrate the age factor (when decline comes, I think it tends to show up on D before O) but I've also seen LeSwitch enough times that I'm not betting le farm that he won't make it back to the finals for the 8th straight season.
I’m not trying to disparage Curry. He’s amazing. But LeBron is simply a better all around player and I don’t think any non-Dubs fans would dispute that. I would love to plop him on some shit team and see how he would handle it over the course of an 82 game season. I think Klay and Draymond would dispute that Curry carried them those years. Curry was clearly the Alpha but he had plenty of help. These kinds of arguments are obviously hard to resolve since they’re mostly speculative.

In the end, I don’t think LeBron and this Cavs team are anywhere near locks to make the Finals. But if I had to make a pick with my life depending on it, I’m taking LeBron vs. a Raptors team that has never proven squat in the playoffs and a Celtics team that will be without Hayward with other key guys at less than 100%. Nobody else in the East even registers for me.