Pedro Martinez: the Yoda of Pitching

SumnerH

Malt Liquor Picker
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,887
Alexandria, VA
cannonball 1729 said:
Probably because his calculator ran out of digits.  Many calculators only carry 14 digits.
That just raises more questions. What person who purports to do serious statistical analysis is using a calculator in 2014?
 

teddywingman

Looks like Zach Galifianakis
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2009
11,168
a basement on the hill
SumnerH said:
 
I've seen some arguments that though pitchers are throwing fewer innings now than in the 1960s, they're actually throwing about the same number of pitches (or more).  Batters are working much longer PAs than they used to.
 
 
The larger strike zone of the 60's is a also a huge factor. Gradually in the 80's umpires stopped calling higher strikes. By the time Pedro was pitching in the late 90's, anything above the belt was a ball. 
 
It seems the length of game problem has pressured umpires into calling letter-high strikes again in the last year--especially this year.
 

lambolt

http://b.globe.com/13BHr47
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 28, 2011
164
MentalDisabldLst said:
 
 
A few years ago, there was a great set of "Greatest Of All Time (GOAT)" threads where SoSH debated the various merits of every legend from every position, and slowly landed on its rotation of 5 GOAT starting pitchers.  I believe Pedro was #2 behind Walter Johnson (which I think is frankly a credit to this site, voting a pitcher from nearly 100 years ago as first, despite everyone's biases and huge mancrushes on Mr. Martinez).  
 
I'm not sure how much of a credit it is. If you compare the likely average skill and talent of players 100 years ago, I don't know how you can not have a huge asterisk including "yeah if we do that stupid thing where we kind of equalise for era", but actually Pedro is just orders of magnitude better than anyone from 100 years ago, because well, huh, he was pitching to a level of talent that dwarfs that from 100 years ago.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
YTF said:
I'd like to see Pedro Yoda up with Buchholz for a while and see if perhaps some Jedi magic he can work.
 
 
 

Big Papa Smurph

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 20, 2007
325
Boston

Jim Ed Rice in HOF

Red-headed Skrub child
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,248
Seacoast NH
 
 
 I had three pitches I could normally rely on, but they weren't always all there. On the days they were, it would be a shutout. Maybe it would be a one-hitter, something special.
Yes they were.
 
This article was not long enough. Of course if it had been a 100K word story it would still be too short.
 
I believe Pedro's book is going to be more about his life and career and not as focused on the art of pitching. If that's the case he really needs another book deal.
 

Jack Sox

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 27, 2005
3,375
Pedro is more eloquent in his second language than 99.9% of all athletes are in their first.
 

msilverman

Moderator
Moderator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
28
Jim Ed Rice in HOF said:
Yes they were.
 
This article was not long enough. Of course if it had been a 100K word story it would still be too short.
 
I believe Pedro's book is going to be more about his life and career and not as focused on the art of pitching. If that's the case he really needs another book deal.
That's not the case. He'll talk quite a bit about the art of pitching in the book. It's inseparable from his life and career. … And to chime in, David's interview was really good.
 

Jim Ed Rice in HOF

Red-headed Skrub child
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,248
Seacoast NH
msilverman said:
That's not the case. He'll talk quite a bit about the art of pitching in the book. It's inseparable from his life and career. … And to chime in, David's interview was really good.
That's great to hear. The publisher's initial snippet saying it will contain "lively, raw stories" about his career didn't make it sound that way. Don't get me wrong - I would be more than happy to read a book about that subject alone but his thoughts on pitching are tremendous.
 

timlinin8th

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2009
1,521
Jim Ed Rice in HOF said:
 
I believe Pedro's book is going to be more about his life and career and not as focused on the art of pitching. If that's the case he really needs another book deal.
He needs another book deal regardless of the first book. Pedro is to baseball what Sun Tzu was to warfare.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
A chance to meet Pedro this Thursday (6/26):
 
 
Join Pedro Martinez and Good Humor for Ice Cream
Former Red Sox player Pedro Martinez will celebrate the summer with Good Humor Ice Cream. Just steps outside the Prudential Building, Martinez will pose for pictures and serve up frozen treats to fans. NOON-2 p.m. 800 Boylston St.; facebook.com/goodhumor
 
http://bostoncommon-magazine.com/calendar/2014/6/26
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
26,993
Newton
Wasn’t sure where to put this but amidst a sea of hang-wringing complaints about baseball, I thought these comments from Pedro were great:

 

FinanceAdvice

New Member
Apr 1, 2008
167
Albany, NY
So glad to see a Pedro thread (could not reply to another thread as it was closed.) It's been widely reported that Sandy Koufax along with Walter Johnson, Bob Feller,Gibson et. al were the greatest pitchers of all-time. For me it; s Pedro. look at these cumulative all years head-to-head comparisons to the great Koufax. Pedro beat him in all categories, save one ,FIP and even that was razor close.
Winning %: Pedro .687 to .655
ERA+: Pedro 154 to 131
FIP: Koufax had 2,69 to Pedro's 2.91
K's/9: Pedro had 10.0 to 9.3
K's/BB: Pedro had 4.15 to2.93
WAR: Pedro 84 to 49
Source Baseball-reference.

I was fortunate enough to see Pedro pitch a gem at Fenway. A complete game v. Twins in in 2-1 Sox victory. A true joy to watch and admire!
 

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,072
Concord, NH
So glad to see a Pedro thread (could not reply to another thread as it was closed.) It's been widely reported that Sandy Koufax along with Walter Johnson, Bob Feller,Gibson et. al were the greatest pitchers of all-time. For me it; s Pedro. look at these cumulative all years head-to-head comparisons to the great Koufax. Pedro beat him in all categories, save one ,FIP and even that was razor close.
Winning %: Pedro .687 to .655
ERA+: Pedro 154 to 131
FIP: Koufax had 2,69 to Pedro's 2.91
K's/9: Pedro had 10.0 to 9.3
K's/BB: Pedro had 4.15 to2.93
WAR: Pedro 84 to 49
Source Baseball-reference.

I was fortunate enough to see Pedro pitch a gem at Fenway. A complete game v. Twins in in 2-1 Sox victory. A true joy to watch and admire!
I don't think you'll have to work that hard to convince everyone on this board of all that :)
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,344
I saw Pedro start 5 different times. He either got a No Decision or a shitty L. Never once got a victory.
Lost to Mussina twice... David Wells, I think Irabu and Toronto Clemens. I think the Sox scored a total of 4 runs in those 5 games. So annoying
 

drbretto

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 10, 2009
12,072
Concord, NH
Pedro was magical. If I were to draft and all-time all-star game with all players in their prime in a winner take all, single game situation, My starter is Pedro Jaime Martinez. Circa 1999 or 2000, take your pick.
 

brs3

sings praises of pinstripes
SoSH Member
May 20, 2008
5,200
Jackson Heights, NYC
I was at Pedro's last regular season Fenway start as a Red Sox vs the MFY in 2004. His night ended similar to the ALCS '03 game, left in til the 8th to similar results. It wasn't vintage Pedro, but I saw God live in person, so that's good enough for me!
 

FinanceAdvice

New Member
Apr 1, 2008
167
Albany, NY
I was at Pedro's last regular season Fenway start as a Red Sox vs the MFY in 2004. His night ended similar to the ALCS '03 game, left in til the 8th to similar results. It wasn't vintage Pedro, but I saw God live in person, so that's good enough for me!
I loved watching him pitch either a win or loss a true wizard to behold. Just like there will be another Ted Williams, there will never be another Pedro!
 

3_games_down

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2007
137
Coastal NC
I took my brother and father to Fenway. We were treated to Pedro striking out 13 MFY's over 8 scoreless frames back in 2001. He is the greatest statesman for the game in my book. If Pedro is speaking about antics, change up grips, of defensive shifts I'm listening intently.
 

santadevil

wears depends
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
6,472
Saskatchestan
I become a Red Sox fan because my Montreal Expos traded him here, he's my all-time favorite player

He's also starting to get a very round face to the point that he has no chin anymore, I hope he's taking care of himself
 

FinanceAdvice

New Member
Apr 1, 2008
167
Albany, NY
I should have been more s
That's it? Just on your starting five?

Prime Pedro was the best pitcher who has ever delivered a baseball.

Starting five?? He's the ace of the staff, regardless of who else you put on it.
I should have been more specific. #1 Pedro 2. Walter Johnson 3.koufax 4. Bob feller 5. Bob. Gibson.
 

joyofsox

empty, bleak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
7,552
Vancouver Island
Pedro Martinez had a 190 ERA+ during his Red Sox career.
Sandy Koufax had a career-best 190 ERA+ in 1966.
Code:
        ERA+     Year
Pedro   285      2000
Pedro   245      1999
Pedro   221      1997
Pedro   212      2003
Pedro   196      2002
Koufax  190      1966
Pedro   189      2001
Koufax  187      1964
Koufax  161      1963
Pedro   160      1998
Koufax  160      1965
 

Oil Can Dan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2003
8,014
0-3 to 4-3
I saw Pedro's first game at Fenway from behind a pole in the right field seats.

Best obstructed view I'll ever have.
I was there too. Couldn’t get over the electric atmosphere. Felt like Christmas morning, but with a ton of Dominican flags waving around the living room.
 

Soxfan in Fla

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2001
7,187
I saw a handful of his starts down here in Tampa. Saw the infamous Gerald Williams game and was in awe from about the 4th inning on once I realized what was going on. I was just amazed that he kept such laser sharp focus through all the distractions of Williams charging him and then the benches clearing every other inning when the Rays clown show tried to bean Dauber yet again. It was really an incredible performance.

I think the whole league learned a lesson that day. Don’t piss Pedro off to start a game because he will just ratchet it up another notch.
 

TFisNEXT

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
12,529
I saw Pedro start 5 different times. He either got a No Decision or a shitty L. Never once got a victory.
Lost to Mussina twice... David Wells, I think Irabu and Toronto Clemens. I think the Sox scored a total of 4 runs in those 5 games. So annoying
Funny, I also saw him pitch 5 times, but only once saw him lose. It was a 2-1 loss to Mussina in the old Toilet in May of 2001 where he K'd 12. Daubach hit a ground rule double with 2 outs that bounced into the stands in the 7th that would have tied it but they made the runner go back to 3rd. He would have scored easily standing up.

The other 4 times I saw him he got the W every time. Twice against TB, once each against Cleveland and Minnesota. The ballpark was a different place when he pitched. Every 2-stirke count was electric.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives

Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:

Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9

I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding. Other than innings, if you ranked these 14 pitchers in each category, Pedro is #1 in winning %, #6 in era, #4 in fip, #1 in era+, #2 in whip, and #2 in k/9. Nobody else has that many top 3 rankings.

I will say that Clayton Kershaw is putting together an all-time great resumé so far. His numbers are absolutely astounding, and so far absolutely rank him among the greatest pitchers ever. He's not Pedro though.

EDIT: And just to put this in perspective.... Chris Sale, as dominant as he's been, has had one season as a starter with an era+ of more than 175 (this year's 196, and that, of course, could change). Pedro's era+ over a full 7-year period was 213. Holy crap.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
10,103

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Funny, I also saw him pitch 5 times, but only once saw him lose. It was a 2-1 loss to Mussina in the old Toilet in May of 2001 where he K'd 12. Daubach hit a ground rule double with 2 outs that bounced into the stands in the 7th that would have tied it but they made the runner go back to 3rd. He would have scored easily standing up.

The other 4 times I saw him he got the W every time. Twice against TB, once each against Cleveland and Minnesota. The ballpark was a different place when he pitched. Every 2-stirke count was electric.
I was at that 2-1 loss in NY as well. Frustrating game to watch. Mussina always seemed to pitch well against Pedro. I also saw the Sox lose 2-1 to the Indians with Pedro on the mound. He pitched great as usual.


Yup, great as Kershaw is, Pedro is just on another level. I liked this piece from Kershaw’s 2014 run:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/pedro-martinez-letter-to-clayton-kershaw/
Hahaha that was awesome.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,867
San Andreas Fault
Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives

Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:

Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9

I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding. Other than innings, if you ranked these 14 pitchers in each category, Pedro is #1 in winning %, #6 in era, #4 in fip, #1 in era+, #2 in whip, and #2 in k/9. Nobody else has that many top 3 rankings.

I will say that Clayton Kershaw is putting together an all-time great resumé so far. His numbers are absolutely astounding, and so far absolutely rank him among the greatest pitchers ever. He's not Pedro though.

EDIT: And just to put this in perspective.... Chris Sale, as dominant as he's been, has had one season as a starter with an era+ of more than 175 (this year's 196, and that, of course, could change). Pedro's era+ over a full 7-year period was 213. Holy crap.
This subset of your great pitchers weren’t on a World Series winning team during their great run, although Pedro made it in 2004 of course.

Pedro
Kershaw
Clemens
Marichal
Walter Johnson

Kershaw is still searching for it.

Clemens made it with the Yankees in 1999 at age 36.

Marichal never won one.

Walter J. finally won a WS at the age of 36 in 1924 with the Washington Senators.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
My dad (grew up in NY as a Yankee fan) told me he wished I could have seen DiMaggio (his hero) and those guys play ball. I wish I could have seen it too. And I feel bad for kids today who have never seen Pedro pitch. So I like to point them to these links to see for themselves....



I'd include the 17k 1-hitter but that requires payment. Long story short, kids can at least watch Pedro pitch thanks to Youtube.
 

SumnerH

Malt Liquor Picker
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,887
Alexandria, VA
Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives

Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:

Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9

I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding.
That is amazing. Pedro does have by far the fewest IP (only Kershaw is close) during his peak, but the degree of dominance is staggering. Walter Johnsons's 2485.1 ip at 189 era+ stands out as the biggest contender for a superior combination. But his 6.2 k/9 is surprisingly low to me given the lore around his fastball.

Johan Santana for comparison:
Santana (2002-2008): 1413.1, 106-48 (.688), 2.86 era, 3.17 fip, 156 era+, 1.05 whip, 9.4 k/9
 

TFisNEXT

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
12,529
My dad (grew up in NY as a Yankee fan) told me he wished I could have seen DiMaggio (his hero) and those guys play ball. I wish I could have seen it too. And I feel bad for kids today who have never seen Pedro pitch. So I like to point them to these links to see for themselves....


I'd include the 17k 1-hitter but that requires payment. Long story short, kids can at least watch Pedro pitch thanks to Youtube.
I'll never forget the 1999 ALDS game 5 relief appearance against the Indians. He was clearly not 100% (which is why he didn't start to begin with) and yet he told Jimy Williams he had seen enough carnage after 3 innings and wanted to try throwing in the bullpen and get in the game if he thought he could manage it. 6 innings and 0 Cleveland hits later, his legend grew. That 1999 Cleveland lineup was about as scary as they come too.
 

SirPsychoSquints

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,013
Pittsburgh, PA
Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives

Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:

Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9

I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding. Other than innings, if you ranked these 14 pitchers in each category, Pedro is #1 in winning %, #6 in era, #4 in fip, #1 in era+, #2 in whip, and #2 in k/9. Nobody else has that many top 3 rankings.

I will say that Clayton Kershaw is putting together an all-time great resumé so far. His numbers are absolutely astounding, and so far absolutely rank him among the greatest pitchers ever. He's not Pedro though.

EDIT: And just to put this in perspective.... Chris Sale, as dominant as he's been, has had one season as a starter with an era+ of more than 175 (this year's 196, and that, of course, could change). Pedro's era+ over a full 7-year period was 213. Holy crap.
Any cumulative value item will serve Pedro worse, but sorting Starting Pitchers by the best 7 WAR years (not consecutive 7 years, excluding those who didn't pitch past 1910, Bold career ended after WW2)

  1. Walter Johnson 89.5
  2. Young 79.2
  3. Alexander 69.6
  4. Mathewson 68.5
  5. Clemens 66.0
  6. Grove 65.6
  7. Ed Walsh 62.3
  8. Randy 61.5
  9. Gibson 61.3
  10. Seaver 59.4
  11. Pedro 58.3
  12. Maddux 56.3
  13. Robin Roberts 54.9
  14. Wes Ferrell 54.9
  15. Phil Niekro 54.4
 

Dahabenzapple2

Mr. McGuire / Axl's Counter
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,926
Wayne, NJ
That is amazing. Pedro does have by far the fewest IP (only Kershaw is close) during his peak, but the degree of dominance is staggering. Walter Johnsons's 2485.1 ip at 189 era+ stands out as the biggest contender for a superior combination. But his 6.2 k/9 is surprisingly low to me given the lore around his fastball.

Johan Santana for comparison:
Santana (2002-2008): 1413.1, 106-48 (.688), 2.86 era, 3.17 fip, 156 era+, 1.05 whip, 9.4 k/9
I would think that Walter Johnson's 6.2 K/9 might be the best of his era so that number should be looked at as a strength and not a weakness.

Certainly there were many batters who rarely struck out and I imagine the K rate was way lower than the circa 15% that it was 15 to 20 years ago. As we know it is now well north of 20%.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,867
San Andreas Fault
I would think that Walter Johnson's 6.2 K/9 might be the best of his era so that number should be looked at as a strength and not a weakness.

Certainly there were many batters who rarely struck out and I imagine the K rate was way lower than the circa 15% that it was 15 to 20 years ago. As we know it is now well north of 20%.
That’s right. Some other top pitchers of the era’s K/9, regular season, were

CY Young 3.4
Christy Mathewson 4.7
Grover Cleveland Alexander 3.8
Eddie Plank 4.5

Jumping ahead a few years,
Lefty Grove 5.2
Carl Hubbell 4.2

Even Bob Feller only had 6.1. Could say that Nolan Ryan ushered in the strikeout era with his 9.5 K/9.
 

BuellMiller

New Member
Mar 25, 2015
449
Saw Pedro at Fenway twice. Got no-decisions in both. First time in early 2001, struck out 10 Twins in 7 IP, giving up 2 ER, but Rod Beck blew the game in the 9th with a little help from Troy O'Leary misplaying a flyball. The second one in 2004*, also went 7 IP, giving up 2 ER, and had 11 Ks, but left tied at 2-2, before the Red Sox rallied and won it for Embree. Thinking back, I don't remember him being very "dominant" as far as Pedro goes in either game (maybe it was just wishful thinking that Pedro would throw a perfect game or strikeout 21 when I was there) (or in the 2004 case, it was a month after the opening day debacle), but that just goes to show you how great he was if 7 IP, 2 ER, and double-digit Ks were "meh".

*This was also the game that Manny ran out onto the field with the American flag after getting citizenship earlier in the day.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,913
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
I was there too. Couldn’t get over the electric atmosphere. Felt like Christmas morning, but with a ton of Dominican flags waving around the living room.
That's literally all I remember is the Dominican flags and it being a sunny day in April. Although I do recall a ton of strikeouts too, something like 15.

We actually walked up to the gate and got tickets the day of, which is unheard of now.