2017-18 NBA Regular Season Game/Observation Thread

Cesar Crespo

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Asik should help out NO a bit now that he has returned. They really don't have any bigs outside of Davis and Cousins and they don't have much in the way of wings either. Miller has been nice and Cunnigham is meh. Without Davis, they are really small.
 

benhogan

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I said "looked like," not "is." Obviously he's a very good player most of the time, and often totally dominant. That wasn't the case last night. There's always a ton of flukiness in single-game plus-minus, but when you're talking +22 in the 16 minutes he sat and a -32 in the 32 minutes he played (net -54), I think it's an extreme enough result to look for possible causes. Anecdotally, the Pelicans offense flowed beautifully with Holiday and Rondo initiating and flying around, the ball whipping around to open cutters and shooters, and Asik in there just to rebound, play D, and clean up garbage. When Boogie was in, it was a whole lot more dribble-dribble-dribble while everyone stands around, then force a shot (7-15 fg) or cough the ball up (7 turnovers).

Strongly doubt it was just about the Ws happening to "drain a barrage of threes" when Boogie was on the floor. (And to the extent that that did happen, maybe on defense he could have flashed out onto the perimeter a bit more often?)

Meanwhile, KD was bad in similar ways: lots of ball stopping, forcing shots, bad fouls, dumb turnovers. Not to mention all the histrionics with Boogie and the refs. Just a bad night for two normally elite players.
Two things SRN,
1. Don't ever question statistical darling Boogie Cousins, the quant patrol will claim he is a top 10-20 player.
2. Don't ever bring up his W/L record as a player, its everyone else's fault.

Otherwise, carry on...
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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The Ringer had an interesting article on the Raptors, who have quietly stockpiling all of these long, bouncy athletes as they try to change from an iso team to something more, well, "modern." Here's the conclusion:

The Raptors have spent the past few years seemingly running in place. Like everyone else in the East, they have been playing in LeBron’s shadow, and they didn’t have the star power or perimeter athleticism to threaten him in a playoff series. Under the surface, though, they have been quietly retooling. They stole Anunoby, Siakam, and Powell in the draft, building an entirely different team around Lowry and DeRozan in the process. This is simultaneously the best and youngest group they have had in the past five seasons. Their transformation has just begun
 

Cesar Crespo

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Two things SRN,

2. Don't ever bring up his W/L record as a player, its everyone else's fault.

Otherwise, carry on...
What does that say about Anthony Davis or KAT? You clearly have it out for Cousins if you think the W/L record actually is his fault. Up until the NO trade, the best player he's played alongside is probably a young IT4 or Tyreke Evans. I also don't see anyone calling him a top 10-20 player, but whatever floats your boat.

edit: He's always been the trade target everyone wanted but that's because he was always available.
 

benhogan

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What does that say about Anthony Davis or KAT? You clearly have it out for Cousins if you think the W/L record actually is his fault. Up until the NO trade, the best player he's played alongside is probably a young IT4 or Tyreke Evans. I also don't see anyone calling him a top 10-20 player, but whatever floats your boat.

edit: He's always been the trade target everyone wanted but that's because he was always available.
I don't care either way about Boogie Cousins.

But you proved my point. thanks
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't care either way about Boogie Cousins.

But you proved my point. thanks
You were complaining about him a week ago too, claiming the same thing that no one else has claimed.

edit: AD is playing alongside him. If they don't make the playoffs, it looks just as bad on AD as it does Cousins.
 

bowiac

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Two things SRN,
1. Don't ever question statistical darling Boogie Cousins, the quant patrol will claim he is a top 10-20 player.
2. Don't ever bring up his W/L record as a player, its everyone else's fault.

Otherwise, carry on...
Don't bring the quant patrol into this; Boogie is as polarizing there as anywhere else.
 

benhogan

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You were complaining about him a week ago too, claiming the same thing that no one else has claimed.

edit: AD is playing alongside him. If they don't make the playoffs, it looks just as bad on AD as it does Cousins.
Oy, I made a game observation during the Jazz game.

He was playing crappy defense, which was true.

I also said he was a stat stud, which is true.

and he'll probably not make the playoffs, which he has never done.

Nothing earth-shattering.

I wasn't opposing anyone's opinion around here, not sure what your issue is...
 

Cesar Crespo

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Oy, I made a game observation during the Jazz game.

He was playing crappy defense, which was true.

I also said he was a stat stud, which is true.

and he'll probably not make the playoffs, which he has never done.

Nothing earth-shattering.

I wasn't opposing anyone's opinion around here, not sure what your issue is...

It's not really an issue. But if they don't make the playoffs, is it really all his fault? You'd also have to start questioning Anthony Davis, although he made the playoffs that one year. I don't see anyone questioning Davis, maybe we should start? They definitely take some of the blame if NO fails to make the playoffs but that team is also constructed poorly and the West is stacked.

It's probably more a league thing. It's stacked with bigs who haven't really won anything but they are also really young so who knows.
 

Kliq

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https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2017/11/17/16671164/top-20-nba-players-bill-simmons

go to minute 22.

Agreed, Boogie is a complete lightning rod. When I said quant patrol I was thinking The Ringer and 538.

Joe House has him at #8, Bill Simmons just outside the top 10.
Granted the point of that podcast was to talk about the top 20 players at that very moment and considering Cousins has put up Hakeem-like numbers so far this season and New Orleans looks like a playoff team, I don’t think that is an overstatement and I’ve never claimed to be a big Boogie fan.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm guessing people's top 10 lists differ a lot more now than in recent years, especially 6-10. There is so much talent in the league.

edit: I'd also guess the first 5 are pretty much all the same in some order of Harden, Leonard, Durant, Curry and James.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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My 6-10 would be Giannis, Kyrie, AD, Porzingis and Westbrook. The latter may fall off if his performance continues but if Kawhi is in my top 5 when he hasn't played a game this season, I think I have to have Westbrook in there.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'll play...

#1-5: LeBron, Harden, Curry, KD, Kawhi
#6-10: Giannis, Kyrie, AD, Draymond, Horford
No argument with anyone on this list but its very progressive. Horford gets a lot of love here in this forum for all the right reasons but outside of a Boston board, you probably see more votes for Westbrook and Embiid amongst others.

I suspect that many NBA fans would scoff at Draymond but I agree with your placement. Curry being injured is a problem for Golden State. Durant going down (with all the others staying healthy) is also a problem. However I believe they could make it back to the finals without one or the other. Golden State does not make the finals without Draymond Green. He is the not-so-secret MVP of that team. That said, I suspect his histrionics, trash talking and otherwise polarizing behavior cause people to underrate him or simply forget how versatile the guy is. He is essentially the basketball equivalent of Winston Wolfe.
 

bowiac

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I suspect that many NBA fans would scoff at Draymond but I agree with your placement. Curry being injured is a problem for Golden State. Durant going down (with all the others staying healthy) is also a problem. However I believe they could make it back to the finals without one or the other. Golden State does not make the finals without Draymond Green. He is the not-so-secret MVP of that team. That said, I suspect his histrionics, trash talking and otherwise polarizing behavior cause people to underrate him or simply forget how versatile the guy is. He is essentially the basketball equivalent of Winston Wolfe.
Agree on Draymond.

He's not the first guy I'd take to start a team, but if I already had one elite shot creator (e.g., Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis, Kyrie, etc...), he'd be my second pick even if someone else on that list was still available. There's nobody else like him the league. Probably the closest approximation is Horford actually.
 

the moops

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2 months ago Kyrie wasn't a Top 10 point guard around here
I think this is taking the Kyrie skepticism a bit too far. The general thinking was that he was maybe a top 15 player, some argued he fell out of the top 20. And in thse rankings, there were several PGs for sure, but Kyrie was still for sure considered a top 5'ish PG
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think this is taking the Kyrie skepticism a bit too far. The general thinking was that he was maybe a top 15 player, some argued he fell out of the top 20. And in thse rankings, there were several PGs for sure, but Kyrie was still for sure considered a top 5'ish PG
I already gave my mea culpa in the Celtics season thread but the reality is, prior to this season and outside of small sample sizes (playoff games last year and the finals), he hadn't consistently performed at a level that earned him a top-performer status.

Now, I know some people had the vision and belief to see that he would thrive in Boston under Stevens, however others - and let's face it, many C's fans really only watched Irving play against Boston and in the finals - were simply going on his admittedly amazing Sportscenter clips (to be clear, I am not directing this at anyone here). If you simply saw Kyrie's highlights, you would absolutely think he was one of the best players in the league.

There has never been any question about Irving's offensive skills. The guy was always considered an elite ball-handler, scorer and finisher. What has changed is that he now plays in a system that maximizes his strengths and doesn't ask him to be something he isn't. Furthermore, he is actually playing very good defense (for him). Kudos to him for adapting to that system and evolving his game.

In short, we now have more information and a data-set outside of Cleveland to evaluate where Irving ranks. I prefer that to "I was right, you were stupid" arguments but, for me at least, that applies too.
 

Cesar Crespo

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A bunch of people were comparing Kryie in overall ability to IT4. People were laughing at the notion of him being top 10 but iirc, most had him in the top 30.

Before the season started, he wasn't top 10 though. Neither was Giannis. Things change quickly.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I haven't been very impressed with OKC this year. It probably doesn't help that George and Anthony are shooting career lows, although they are both hitting enough of their 3s that it hasn't affected their effectiveness much. Westbrook is having his worse shooting season since his rookie year, and isn't making up for it with the 3. It seems a lot of guys are having off years from 3 on that team, and they didn't have many shooters to begin with. They probably make the playoffs but it wouldn't shock me if they didn't.

Also, Devin Booker struggled badly in the first half but he's starting to do Devin Booker like things in the 3rd quarter. Kid can flat out score the ball if nothing else.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Utah's ball movement is pretty great. I echo the Kliq and others here who have given props to Snyder. He has done a great job with this squad and bringing along a kid like Mitchell.

On another note, Carmelo Anthony continues to look like garbage in terms of the eye test (his offensive stats aren't too off his career norms). I agree with bosox79 - I wouldn't be shocked if OKC somehow misses the playoffs.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Gobert is back sooner than expected and they went 7-4 without him, including 5 straight to finish it out. A win vs OKC at Oklahoma would make it 7 straight. They look like a playoff team.
 

Manzivino

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Toronto is very quietly wrecking teams, the playoffs in the East have a chance to be epic barring injuries: Boston/Toronto/Cleveland plus Detroit/Washington/Philly and even the last few seeds are going to have superstars that can potentially carry a playoff series Paul George style (Giannis, Porzingis, Oladipo if his leap is real)

Booker carried off the court in Toronto, looked like a bad groin injury. They’re saying strained adductor but we’ll see, they’re not going to risk the franchise and any time he misses makes it less likely they finish above the Lakers.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I love his game. He's an alpha male. Zero hesitation to shoot.
Its not just that. The kid finishes at the rim like a seasoned vet. If he gets a lane, veteran NBA defenders are whiffing on him. Yet he can score, even when they contact him. Really impressive.
 

JakeRae

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I have an easy time picking a Top 9 right now but struggle with choosing a tenth. My 6-9 are Draymond, Paul, Jokic, and Giannis (not an ordered list). 10 is hard because you can make a case for lots of guys who are very different. Butler, Kyrie, Gobert, Davis, Lowry, Westbrook, Cousins, and George all have viable claims to that last spot, in my mind. I think, my choice is Davis because he's just coming into his own and because he is the player I think probably jumps the most on a properly constructed team.

Lowry gets hurt by his health issues and the fact that he has historically disappeared in the playoffs (he's usually been hurt, so this might just be a health thing). Kyrie is playing like a borderline top 10 player but has only done it for a quarter season now. He has the most upside after Davis, though. Kyrie and Gobert also get hit with a coaching penalty (kind of the opposite of Davis) because they are borderline despite playing for amazing coaches. Butler and George get hurt by not having top 5 potential. Boogie and Westbrook get hurt because of the baggage each brings.

Guys like Simmons, Porzingas, and Embiid just aren't in this space yet. Simmons is impressively close for a rookie. But, for all of them, I think whether they are top 20 players is a more interesting question than top 10. Does anyone really think Simmons helps a team win more, right now, than Butler or George? That Porzingas does v. Davis? Embiid v. Boogie and Gobert? I don't think it takes anything away from them to recognize they aren't at that level yet. Young players almost never are.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Utah has a problem in that they simply don't have much dependable scoring outside of a rookie in Mitchell. Andre Roberson was a terror defensively tonight. That said, they are on the back-half of back-to-back so its understandable they ran out of gas.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I have an easy time picking a Top 9 right now but struggle with choosing a tenth. My 6-9 are Draymond, Paul, Jokic, and Giannis (not an ordered list). 10 is hard because you can make a case for lots of guys who are very different. Butler, Kyrie, Gobert, Davis, Lowry, Westbrook, Cousins, and George all have viable claims to that last spot, in my mind. I think, my choice is Davis because he's just coming into his own and because he is the player I think probably jumps the most on a properly constructed team.

Lowry gets hurt by his health issues and the fact that he has historically disappeared in the playoffs (he's usually been hurt, so this might just be a health thing). Kyrie is playing like a borderline top 10 player but has only done it for a quarter season now. He has the most upside after Davis, though. Kyrie and Gobert also get hit with a coaching penalty (kind of the opposite of Davis) because they are borderline despite playing for amazing coaches. Butler and George get hurt by not having top 5 potential. Boogie and Westbrook get hurt because of the baggage each brings.

Guys like Simmons, Porzingas, and Embiid just aren't in this space yet. Simmons is impressively close for a rookie. But, for all of them, I think whether they are top 20 players is a more interesting question than top 10. Does anyone really think Simmons helps a team win more, right now, than Butler or George? That Porzingas does v. Davis? Embiid v. Boogie and Gobert? I don't think it takes anything away from them to recognize they aren't at that level yet. Young players almost never are.
The Knicks are a pretty bad team but they are 11-8 when Porzingis plays. They are 0-4 without. I agree you can make a case for a lot of guys though.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Utah has a problem in that they simply don't have much dependable scoring outside of a rookie in Mitchell. Andre Roberson was a terror defensively tonight. That said, they are on the back-half of back-to-back so its understandable they ran out of gas.
They have Rodney Hood and he'll be back soon. Point still stands but he'll help a bit.
 

BigSoxFan

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Toronto is very quietly wrecking teams, the playoffs in the East have a chance to be epic barring injuries: Boston/Toronto/Cleveland plus Detroit/Washington/Philly and even the last few seeds are going to have superstars that can potentially carry a playoff series Paul George style (Giannis, Porzingis, Oladipo if his leap is real)

Booker carried off the court in Toronto, looked like a bad groin injury. They’re saying strained adductor but we’ll see, they’re not going to risk the franchise and any time he misses makes it less likely they finish above the Lakers.
Spurs are also quietly 16-8 and the 3 seed without Kawhi or Parker. Likely going to set up a 2nd round playoff rematch with either Golden State or Houston.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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First Jazz rookie in 37 years (Darrell Griffith) to go for 20+ in 4 straight games.
What is fascinating is that Snyder is essentially running the Jazz offense through him in key minutes and Mitchell is responding. At the end of the game tonight, Rubio was off the floor and it was Mitchell taking the ball up the court.
 

Sam Ray Not

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A cool 51 for Beal. Needed em too, since Wall's still out and Porter, Gortat, and Morris combined for 4-24.

After losing to the Jazz by 47, Wiz wax the Blazers in Portland, 106-92.
 

Nick Kaufman

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I think this is taking the Kyrie skepticism a bit too far. The general thinking was that he was maybe a top 15 player, some argued he fell out of the top 20. And in thse rankings, there were several PGs for sure, but Kyrie was still for sure considered a top 5'ish PG
No I remember this as well. There were people (person? ) arguing that Kyrie wasn't even a top 10 point guard.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Steve Clifford taking an indefinite leave from coaching Charlotte due to health reasons. Was reportedly too sick to go on Monday. This doesn't sound good at all for this New England (Maine) native.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Ugh. Get well soon, coach Clifford. Fingers crossed that it's nothing too serious.

Hornets interim coach will be Stephen Silas — 44 y.o. Boston native, Brown grad, and former Warriors assistant who was one of the finalists (with Mike Brown) to take over Luke Walton's job (which weirdly also would have entailed filling in for an ailing head coach named Steve). Super cool and smart guy, from everything I've seen. I'd guess he's on the fast track for a head coaching gig somewhere.

Stephen Silas and Steve Kerr converge in Charlotte tonight, with Steve Clifford and Charlotte's own Stephen Curry (out two weeks at least with the ankle sprain) on the shelf.
 

slamminsammya

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No I remember this as well. There were people (person? ) arguing that Kyrie wasn't even a top 10 point guard.
This was me, or if it wasn't I would have agreed. I absolutely stand by that assessment given what he had done throughout his career up to that point. His offense this season is basically his career average. But the defense going from very bad to maybe even above average makes a huge difference.

Top 10 is an arbitrary cutoff. I clearer way to think is that in my mind Curry, Westbrook, and Paul in their own elite echelon, and then you have a big ish group of point who are a bit harder to distinguish but certainly a cut below the first group (in no order, Wall, Lowry, Walker, Lillard, Irving, Dragic, Conley etc. etc.)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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No I remember this as well. There were people (person? ) arguing that Kyrie wasn't even a top 10 point guard.
I went back through the thread quickly and I didn't really find anyone who said he wasn't a top 10 PG. There was one post that said 4 guys were clearly ahead of him (Curry, Paul, Westbrook, Harden) and in the PG category, he was probably in the same level as Conley, Lowry, Lillard, Wall, Walker (just look up what he's been doing), and Thomas, but that's a bit different than saying he's not top-10.
 

Kliq

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The Thunder are a really interesting team right now. I think it is safe to say that the main concern heading into the season was that there offense was going to pile up points, but there defense was going to be a big question mark considering they were starting two below-average defenders (Anthony and Westbrook). So far the opposite has been true, their defense has been very good (3rd in defensive rating so far) and their offense has been poor (21st in offensive rating). Despite adding two "elite" offensive players to the squad, OKC is worse offensively than they were last season (108 Ortg compared to 105 Ortg this season).

They are 11-12 right, but their expected W-L is 14-9 and so maybe it is just bad luck. What I have seen though from the eye test is on offense this team lacks a lot of things, mainly fluidity and they play very slow (24th in pace in the league) which is something you probably don't want to have when your best player is Russell Westbrook. Last year they ranked 9th in pace which I think helped get less-skilled offensive players (Roberson, Jerami Grant, etc.) more involved and on the board. Moving into the half-court might benefit George and Anthony (it definitely benefits Anthony) but it marginalizes some of the other role players.

The other major issue, one that dates back to last year, is that they once again SUCK from beyond the arc. Last season they were the worst team in the NBA from three and this year they are 27th, shooting a combined 34 percent from three. That number is really buoyed by George, who has been terrific shooting 40 percent on 7.5 attempts per game. Besides him everyone else on the team is shooting below the league average of 36 percent. Westbrook is at 32 percent and Anthony is at 34 percent.

Speaking of Anthony, I think so far he has been VERY bad for the team. His on/off stats are pretty neutral, but I'm not sure how good of an indicator that is considering OKC has only played 31 total minutes with Westbrook and George in the game and Anthony is on the bench. As far as the eye test goes, Anthony imo has not really bought into how a winning basketball team plays games. He appears to be a ball-stopper on offense and despite playing with his best supporting cast in years, he is averaging career-lows in assists per game and assist percentage. Westbrook, George and Anthony are respectively averaging 19,17 and 16 fga per game. That isn't that bad, but when you consider that Westbrook and George are scoring in transition and Anthony is almost a non-factor in that regard, it means that Anthony is controlling a disproportionate amount of the offense in the half-court. In addition, the team is playing much slower than in recent years, most likely to suit Anthony who grew accustomed to playing in a slow offense in NY.

Lastly, they lost Kanter and Gibson in the off-season which has hurt their rebounding. Last season they led the league in rpg per 100 possessions and this year they rank 12th. I think they will be better than they are right now, but I think the big issue that needs to be addressed is their crappy outside shooting and whether or not Anthony is a plus or a minus for them going forward.
 

cheech13

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I've heard it argued that it is easier to integrate a PG to a new team and system (a la Kyrie in Boston) than it is to keep a PG in an existing system but change the players around him (Westbrook in OKC). I have no idea if that's true or not or how you would prove it empirically, but it's worth thinking about in regards to OKC's early struggles.
 

Kliq

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There was a lot of talk about just the psyche Russ would have after last season, when OKC gleefully shoveled the entire offensive burden onto him and how he would respond to being more passive on the offensive end and playing in a system where other people would get ISOs. He’s shooting about 7 less fga per game per 100 possessions and his usage rate is back down closer to his career average. His FG percentage is down which logically seems odd because you would think since he has more options on offense and he isn’t being asked to take as many difficult shots he would be able to make a higher percentage of shots.

I don’t think he or the Thunder have found a healthy balance the way Kyrie and the Celtics have. Westbrook will have games he scores 12 points followed by games he scores 35. If you watch sometimes you see last seasons Russ starting to creep out and other times you seen him being overly passive.
 

lovegtm

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I don’t think he or the Thunder have found a healthy balance the way Kyrie and the Celtics have. Westbrook will have games he scores 12 points followed by games he scores 35. If you watch sometimes you see last seasons Russ starting to creep out and other times you seen him being overly passive.
It's almost as if Brad Stevens is a better coach than Billy Donovan.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I have an easy time picking a Top 9 right now but struggle with choosing a tenth. My 6-9 are Draymond, Paul, Jokic, and Giannis (not an ordered list). 10 is hard because you can make a case for lots of guys who are very different. Butler, Kyrie, Gobert, Davis, Lowry, Westbrook, Cousins, and George all have viable claims to that last spot, in my mind. I think, my choice is Davis because he's just coming into his own and because he is the player I think probably jumps the most on a properly constructed team.

Lowry gets hurt by his health issues and the fact that he has historically disappeared in the playoffs (he's usually been hurt, so this might just be a health thing). Kyrie is playing like a borderline top 10 player but has only done it for a quarter season now. He has the most upside after Davis, though. Kyrie and Gobert also get hit with a coaching penalty (kind of the opposite of Davis) because they are borderline despite playing for amazing coaches. Butler and George get hurt by not having top 5 potential. Boogie and Westbrook get hurt because of the baggage each brings.

Guys like Simmons, Porzingas, and Embiid just aren't in this space yet. Simmons is impressively close for a rookie. But, for all of them, I think whether they are top 20 players is a more interesting question than top 10. Does anyone really think Simmons helps a team win more, right now, than Butler or George? That Porzingas does v. Davis? Embiid v. Boogie and Gobert? I don't think it takes anything away from them to recognize they aren't at that level yet. Young players almost never are.
Where does KAT land on your list?

I also want to point out that a lot of folks giving a ton of credit to Draymond for what he means to Golden State, but for my money, the unsung hero of that team is Klay Thompson. Guy is an assassin from deep, and he may very well be the best defender in the NBA. If I already had a Curry or a Durant or Giannis, and had to pick a #2 outside the top 15-20 players in the league, Klay would be very, very high on that list, if not at the top.

Edit: I also want to add that I think folks are a little high on Chris Paul. If this discussion was taking place about 2 years ago, I think the opinions are dead on, but I just don't know if he's the same guy right now offensively or defensively. I admittedly haven't seen a lot of his play since he came back, but just looking at the numbers, he seems to have taken a step back, and I think Kyrie is heading in the other direction very quickly.
 

bowiac

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I don't get the Klay Thompson love. He looks like just-another-guy on defense to me (and the metrics think he's worse than that).