2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

[tims4wins]

As a point of reference, Hightower made $7.724M on the first four years of his rookie deal.

Butler, if he plays 2017 at the $3.91M tender, will have made $5.440M in his first four years - plus he has earned performance based incentives. I am guessing that gets him to around $6M total for his first four years.

Hightower then made $7.751M with his 5th year option. That totals $15.475M in his first 5 years.

Butler will be a UFA for his 5th year. The franchise tag is somewhere $14-15M. But even if he "only" got Logan Ryan money - $10M - he would make roughly the same as Hightower his first 5 years in the league.

Hightower was a first round pick. Butler was an undrafted free agent.

Just thought this was interesting context. And further proof that nothing about his situation is "unfair".

 

[LaszloKovacks]

Gangs? Is it a reference to Aaron Hernandez??

No. It's a picture of him all swagged out on a private jet. He's saying that even though he's got a bunch of money now, he's still the same guy. Whether or not his personal wealth includes a new contract remains to be seen.

 

[InstaFace]

But his shirt is dark purple! That must mean he signed with the Ravens! OH GOD

 

[doc]

On that instagram post if you zoom in to the reflection on his sun glasses on his left eye, I see a Lombardi Trophy

 

[Reverend]

I'm really hoping we're not seeing some totally over-wrought narrative of the humble kid makes good gets drawn into the biz "changes" even though he thinks he's keeping it real cuts ties flies too close to the sun kinda narrative.

We need some new story lines.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I'm really hoping we're not seeing some totally over-wrought narrative of the humble kid makes good gets drawn into the biz "changes" even though he thinks he's keeping it real cuts ties flies too close to the sun kinda narrative.

We need some new story lines.

What if we give him super powers?

 

[Reverend]

What if we give him super powers?

I think, traditionally in this story-line, he gets super powers if he renounces his own ego and demand for worldly, material things, under the theory that this return to classical virtue is demonstrably good without reference to its role in upholding the existing status quo of power relations in the society. If he tries to cash in on his expected super powers, though, they will seem to be there but then fail him when he needs them most, they not being a function of the authentic virtue required to maintain (i.e. "power") them.

As such, this fall I hope the Patriots field Super Butler.

 

[SMU_Sox]

There's always the Kenny Powers narrative. You're fucking out, New England!

 

[esfr]

It's not a private jet a) first class cabin divider behind his head and b) windows are too big

 

[Koufax]

Maybe its the Trump 474 and he's flying alone with Melania (except that Robert Kraft is in the cockpit).

 

[ilol@u]

He looks hungry. Is he going back to Popeye's?

 

[nattysez]

Saints cleared $4mm in cap room through a contract restructure. Twitter is speculating that this is to clear room for Butler, but...

Even with the Saints starting free agency with more than $27 million, this alteration with Armstead's contract seemed like a logical step to make to give the team more money to spend for 2017. The Saints will need about $7 million in cap space to sign their draft picks, and they already had less than that much with the new deals from the past two weeks.

 

[Koufax]

They can free up the money earmarked for their draft picks by giving them all to the Pats.

 

[Carmine Hose]

It would be amusing if the Saints are doing all kinds of maneuvering to sign Butler to an offer sheet, and then BB just matches it.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think the cap space number for rookies is considerably lower than $7 million for the Saints. I think that number comes from someone who does not understand the rule of 51. Only the top 51 cap players count. Number 51 usually makes around $500k. So, a third round rookie contract that is $600k only costs you about $100k in cap space because you add $600k in your top 51, but your number 51 player's $500k drops to 52.

The Saints probably need about $4.5 to $5 million to sign all their draft picks, and this number goes down considerably if they trade or lose one of their first round picks.

They do need cap space to make an offer to an RFA, but obviously, they don't have any rookies to sign yet so they would have plenty of time to get the room to sign them.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

I think the cap space number for rookies is considerably lower than $7 million for the Saints. I think that number comes from someone who does not understand the rule of 51. Only the top 51 cap players count. Number 51 usually makes around $500k. So, a third round rookie contract that is $600k only costs you about $100k in cap space because you add $600k in your top 51, but your number 51 player's $500k drops to 52.

The Saints probably need about $4.5 to $5 million to sign all their draft picks, and this number goes down considerably if they trade or lose one of their first round picks.

They do need cap space to make an offer to an RFA, but obviously, they don't have any rookies to sign yet so they would have plenty of time to get the room to sign them.

Id be willing to bet 11 and 32 alone are more than 4.5 mil. Never mind 42 as well.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

They certainly are. Last year, #11 got $14.2M and #32, well there wasn't a #32 in the first round, but #31 got $8.3M, both on four year deals.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2016/04/2016_nfl_draft_how_much_each_f.html

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Hargreaves (#11) cap hit his rookie year was 2.57M
Ifidi's (#31) cap hit his rookie year was 1.50M
So 4.07M total.

When you consider the fact that they bump 2 guys off the top-51, that's roughly 3M new cap space needed. I'd say 4.5-5M like Denny said is about right.

 

[DJnVa]

Saints cleared $4mm in cap room through a contract restructure. Twitter is speculating that this is to clear room for Butler, but..

Even with the Saints starting free agency with more than $27 million, this alteration with Armstead's contract seemed like a logical step to make to give the team more money to spend for 2017. The Saints will need about $7 million in cap space to sign their draft picks, and they already had less than that much with the new deals from the past two weeks.

.

If the Saints had less than $7 million available (and now about $11 million) exactly how were they going to structure a deal for Butler? Backload it????

 

[E5 Yaz]

The Saints will also get more than $7 million in cap space when Jairus Byrd comes off the books on June 2. The safety was cut earlier this month with a June 1 designation, which allows New Orleans to spread his dead money over two seasons.

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/sports/saints/article_b0468d8c-0fd3-11e7-9ace-575bf1610395.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Saints too

And Vanderbilt. Maybe he's going back to school?

 

[Rough Carrigan]

The Saints will also get more than $7 million in cap space when Jairus Byrd comes off the books on June 2. The safety was cut earlier this month with a June 1 designation, which allows New Orleans to spread his dead money over two seasons.

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/sports/saints/article_b0468d8c-0fd3-11e7-9ace-575bf1610395.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

If the Pats trade him to New Orleans after the draft then the Saints had better be picking the guy the Pats want with that pick or those picks.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Id be willing to bet 11 and 32 alone are more than 4.5 mil. Never mind 42 as well.

They certainly are. Last year, #11 got $14.2M and #32, well there wasn't a #32 in the first round, but #31 got $8.3M, both on four year deals.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2016/04/2016_nfl_draft_how_much_each_f.html

Guys -- you don't pay the entire contract value towards the cap in the first year.

Here are the 2017 cap hits for the rookie contracts for the Saints current draft picks:

11 $2,778,000

32 $1,600,000

42 $1,130,000

76 $679,000

After that, the cap hit of rookies is negligible, since it offsets due to the rule of 51.

So, the cap hit for the Saints first four draft picks (even if they keep their two first rounders) is, rounding up, $6.2 million

The 51st man on their roster is currently making $540,000.

So, to sign those top 4 rookies, they will take a cap hit of $6,200,000, but $2,160,000 will drop off the cap, because 4 players making that amount will drop below the top 51.

Bottom line: Even if they keep every single pick, the Saints need about $4,040,000 in cap space.

 

[bakahump]

And Vanderbilt. Maybe he's going back to school?

BLACK KNIGHTS!

He has signed up and is now going to West Point!

 

[H78]

I find it so weird that the Saints are so infatuated with Butler. It just seems like they're a long ways away from being truly competitive, they're cap-strapped, they have an aging QB, yet they're deadset on landing this particular CB.

 

[tims4wins]

I find it so weird that the Saints are so infatuated with Butler. It just seems like they're a long ways away from being truly competitive, they're cap-strapped, they have an aging QB, yet they're deadset on landing this particular CB.

Yeah if they are going to give him big bucks plus trade a pick, why not just sign Gilmore to a bit of a higher contract? It's really weird.

(or sign Ryan. Or Bouye. etc.)

 

[E5 Yaz]

I find it so weird that the Saints are so infatuated with Butler. It just seems like they're a long ways away from being truly competitive, they're cap-strapped, they have an aging QB, yet they're deadset on landing this particular CB.

Where's the evidence of infatuation? Payton praised his ability. Other than that, there no evidence of obsessive need to make this deal

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Is there any evidence they didn't make offers to those guys?

Maybe they just misjudged the cost of CBs and are scrambling.

 

[tims4wins]

Where's the evidence of infatuation? Payton praised his ability. Other than that, there no evidence of obsessive need to make this deal

Infatuation may be the wrong word, but why even target this player at all? If he is going to get a discounted contract from Gilmore, then the Pats likely would have offered the same thing. If he gets something in Gilmore territory, why not just sign Gilmore instead of giving up a pick? It's weird

 

[H78]

Yeah if they are going to give him big bucks plus trade a pick, why not just sign Gilmore to a bit of a higher contract? It's really weird.

(or sign Ryan. Or Bouye. etc.)

That Gilmore thought is the exact one I had. They wouldn't have had to give up a high pick and they'd pick up perhaps a slightly lesser CB, but one that is still very good and probably in the top-10 in his position in the NFL. And he'd probably cost less than Butler.

Something just seems weird about this whole thing.

 

[tims4wins]

Is there any evidence they didn't make offers to those guys?

Maybe they just misjudged the cost of CBs and are scrambling.

Fair point, they may have missed the boat

 

[E5 Yaz]

The Saints are working to fit Butler under the cap. How were they going to sign Gilmore for what he got?

 

[H78]

Where's the evidence of infatuation? Payton praised his ability. Other than that, there no evidence of obsessive need to make this deal

Other than haggling with the Pats for weeks over this player while other quality CBs sign elsewhere?

 

[tims4wins]

The Saints are working to fit Butler under the cap. How were they going to sign Gilmore for what he got?

If Butler is being signed at a discount, wouldn't the Pats just sign him at said discount?

 

[H78]

The Saints are working to fit Butler under the cap. How were they going to sign Gilmore for what he got?

By making similar cap-saving moves as the ones they're making now?

 

[steveluck7]

I would guess it's similar to Bill's feelings towards Cooks. The joint practices could have led to some of this binky-ism on both sides

 

[E5 Yaz]

Other than haggling with the Pats for weeks over this player while other quality CBs sign elsewhere?

How do you know they haven't been in on other corners?

 

[E5 Yaz]

By making similar cap-saving moves as the ones they're making now?

They would have had to make those moves prior to free agency. Gilmore was one of the first deals made.

 

[tims4wins]

They would have had to make those moves prior to free agency. Gilmore was one of the first deals made.

It's not like they didn't know Butler was a pending RFA. Either way they should have been making those moves, no?

 

[H78]

How do you know they haven't been in on other corners?

I don't. Look, you asked why I think it's strange. I explained why I think so. They're clearing space to pay top-dollar to Butler. It appears he's not going to settle for anything less. If they sign him for more than Gilmore, the question becomes why not sign Gilmore and save your pick?

It just seems like there's some back-room agreement between BB and SP about this deal. On the surface, it's pretty confusing considering all the hoops NO is jumping through between clearing space and trading a/several high pick(s).

It just feels like NO is giving up a lot when somewhat comparable players could likely - when the dust settles - have been had for less.

 

[E5 Yaz]

It's not like they didn't know Butler was a pending RFA. Either way they should have been making those moves, no?

So, your stance is that because of these roster moves for cap space, the Saints are weirdly obsessed with Butler?

 

[H78]

It's not like they didn't know Butler was a pending RFA. Either way they should have been making those moves, no?

Exactly.

I don't know why Yaz is digging his heels in over this; it seems pretty fair to wonder why they're seemingly stuck on Butler and only Butler given other players that were available for what will likely amount to much less overall.

 

[H78]

So, your stance is that because of these roster moves for cap space, the Saints are weirdly obsessed with Butler?

AND the fact that they have to trade a pick.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I don't know why Yaz is digging his heels in over this; it seems pretty fair to wonder why they're seemingly stuck on Butler and only Butler given other players that were available for what will likely amount to much less overall.

Again, prove they haven't been in contact with other players or teams. You're basing your entire train of thought on what we have learned through the media about only their talks with the Patriots.

 

[tims4wins]

So, your stance is that because of these roster moves for cap space, the Saints are weirdly obsessed with Butler?

Again, I didn't use the term infatuated. I don't think they are "obsessed". I do think it is odd that they would trade a pick and give a guy top dollar when there appeared to be other options out there that would have only cost money and not draft capital.

Edit: and I think the two ideas brought up here - that either they missed the boat on the UFA CBs, or fell in love with Butler during joint practices - could have some merit

 

[H78]

Again, prove they haven't been in contact with other players or teams. You're basing your entire train of thought on what we have learned through the media about only their talks with the Patriots.

99.9% of this board can't "prove" what discussions are going on behind closed doors in the NFL. All we can really rely on are media reports.

I mean - are you trolling, here? Because you're not really making sense.

 

[E5 Yaz]

99.9% of this board can't "prove" what discussions are going on behind closed doors in the NFL. All we can really rely on are media reports.

I mean - are you trolling, here? Because you're not really making sense.

I'm asking you to give credence to your hypotheses that a) the Saints have been focused solely on Butler and b) that there must be some sort of backdoor deal involved with the Pats.

That's not trolling; that's simply not accepting statements made without supporting evidence

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

99.9% of this board can't "prove" what discussions are going on behind closed doors in the NFL. All we can really rely on are media reports.

I mean - are you trolling, here? Because you're not really making sense.

His point is valid though - your entire argument is that they're only talking to Butler, and have only been talking to Butler. There's simply no reason to believe that's true.

 

[tims4wins]

99.9% of this board can't "prove" what discussions are going on behind closed doors in the NFL. All we can really rely on are media reports.

I mean - are you trolling, here? Because you're not really making sense.

Fake news.

 

[DJnVa]

His point is valid though - your entire argument is that they're only talking to Butler, and have only been talking to Butler. There's simply no reason to believe that's true.

I'm really only responding because I'm bored, but we've heard a lot about the Saints offseason BEFORE moves happened--they've talked to Butler, we heard that they were dealing Cooks before it happened, but are you also saying they targeted all these other CBs and no one heard about it?