2017 Cowboys: NoMo' Romo (or playoffs)

Mooch

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Adam Schefter‏Verified account @AdamSchefter 53s53 seconds ago
Cowboys' owner Jerry Jones is said to be furious with NFL decision, per one source. Furious.
Fuck Jerry Jones. Back in 2015, he said this about the Brady suspension:

"He's got obviously a very tough job," Jones said. "Now I see some people doing that, that's that old violin that's not feeling too sorry for him because that's why you pay the big bucks is to deal with the big problems. But he's doing an outstanding job. I can tell you firsthand that in his spot you have to with people that you are counting on to help build and to help excel as far as the National Football League, I'm talking about the owners, you have to know that you're going to make some decisions that are very unpopular with that particular group. This is the case."
 

21st Century Sox

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Yep. Serial abusers of women should probably get more than a 6 game vacation.
100%. I would have no problem with kicking abusers out of the game....forever.

That said, there HAS to be clear evidence. It can't be he said/she said....The NFL needs to act on police arrests, convictions, etc. To just "decide" something happened, (and I am not saying it did or did not, I have no idea) is awful. It absolutely exposes all its players to blackmail, etc.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
I'd like to see the evidence and the league's full explanation. (If its out there, I won't have time until later). But I'm curious if the league is getting any better at this whole investigation/discipline game. Obviously the Rice, Brady, Brown (+ other cases) have shown some serious issues with the league on these matters. Hoping when we see the full picture on this, its dead on punishment for what the facts support. That would at least be a good sign going forward.
 

Ed Hillel

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100%. I would have no problem with kicking abusers out of the game....forever.

That said, there HAS to be clear evidence. It can't be he said/she said....The NFL needs to act on police arrests, convictions, etc. To just "decide" something happened, (and I am not saying it did or did not, I have no idea) is awful. It absolutely exposes all its players to blackmail, etc.
I think this is generally fair, but in domestic abuse cases the witness often doesn't cooperate for any number of reasons, even if abuse occurred. This is especially true where the abusers are rich and powerful. If the NFL feels there is sufficient evidence the abuse occurred, I think it's ok to act. Not everyone will agree, but my thoughts.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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100%. I would have no problem with kicking abusers out of the game....forever.

That said, there HAS to be clear evidence. It can't be he said/she said....The NFL needs to act on police arrests, convictions, etc. To just "decide" something happened, (and I am not saying it did or did not, I have no idea) is awful. It absolutely exposes all its players to blackmail, etc.
Problem with that is so much of arrest>>convictions is inconsistent from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So to rely on prosecutors and court systems as as whole is going to set some bad precedents. Plus you've got diversion programs and a bunch of things that contribute to punishment at that level. I think the internal investigation done correctly is a good approach, but the NFL has to get consistent on how they arrive at results and consistent in investigation and enforcement. I'm hoping they get to that in the future.
 

dcmissle

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Fuck Jerry Jones. Back in 2015, he said this about the Brady suspension:

"He's got obviously a very tough job," Jones said. "Now I see some people doing that, that's that old violin that's not feeling too sorry for him because that's why you pay the big bucks is to deal with the big problems. But he's doing an outstanding job. I can tell you firsthand that in his spot you have to with people that you are counting on to help build and to help excel as far as the National Football League, I'm talking about the owners, you have to know that you're going to make some decisions that are very unpopular with that particular group. This is the case."
Jerry now has to eat those words. And there is the Roethlisberger precedent. I think we're looking at 4 games.

Speaking of Ben .... I'd be surprised if the Rooneys were not among those owners who reportedly lobbied hard on this one.
 

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I'd like to see the evidence and the league's full explanation. (If its out there, I won't have time until later). But I'm curious if the league is getting any better at this whole investigation/discipline game. Obviously the Rice, Brady, Brown (+ other cases) have shown some serious issues with the league on these matters. Hoping when we see the full picture on this, its dead on punishment for what the facts support. That would at least be a good sign going forward.
This is where I'm at. If there's proof he did this, I'm all for the suspension. Otherwise, color me skeptical.
 

dcmissle

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First they came for the Patriots, and I did not speak out because I was not a Patriot...
Kraft has unclean hands on this issue too.

Bunch of smart wealthy guys, yet they are surprised when they are fucked.

Wake up fellas.
 

Captaincoop

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Kraft has unclean hands on this issue too.

Bunch of smart wealthy guys, yet they are surprised when they are fucked.

Wake up fellas.
I'm just not feeling any need to empathize with any other NFL team or player getting screwed by arbitrary NFL "justice" at this point. This is the regime they all wanted, let them have it.
 

Ed Hillel

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Jerry now has to eat those words. And there is the Roethlisberger precedent. I think we're looking at 4 games.

Speaking of Ben .... I'd be surprised if the Rooneys were not among those owners who reportedly lobbied hard on this one.
Ben was before the actual policy, though. Is there anything specific within this policy that dictates how appeals works?

It's probably "Roger is king," like everything else. So, yeah, 3-4 games.
 

Bosoxen

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Couldn't the same have been said of Deflategate?
Jesus fucking Christ, will you give it a rest already? I have and did say the same thing about DFG. Feel free to search the vast archives of that clusterfuck if you don't believe me.
 

InstaFace

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Problem with that is so much of arrest>>convictions is inconsistent from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So to rely on prosecutors and court systems as as whole is going to set some bad precedents. Plus you've got diversion programs and a bunch of things that contribute to punishment at that level. I think the internal investigation done correctly is a good approach, but the NFL has to get consistent on how they arrive at results and consistent in investigation and enforcement. I'm hoping they get to that in the future.
Wait, you want to substitute, for our system of police investigation and open, adversarial prosecution, the whims and judgment of Roger Goodell? Are you mad? Yeah, the justice system lets some people who are probably guilty go free, and does so inconsistently. Many times, prosecutorial discretion and limited resources forcing a focus on certain priorities are features, not bugs.

The answer here is that employers shouldn't be in the justice-system game, and if you lead the public to believe that you should be, and that it makes sense for you as an employer to be doing that, you end up with a far bigger PR liability than if you start with a firm line of "we suspend when they receive a conviction or accept a plea".
 

tims4wins

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Jesus fucking Christ, will you give it a rest already? I have and did say the same thing about DFG. Feel free to search the vast archives of that clusterfuck if you don't believe me.
Sorry I didn't mean to set you off, honestly was not trolling or whatever with that comment. The NFL is horrible. I hate it. Love football but just hate the league. I want nothing but bad things to happen to the league office.
 

tims4wins

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I'm just not feeling any need to empathize with any other NFL team or player getting screwed by arbitrary NFL "justice" at this point. This is the regime they all wanted, let them have it.
This is where I am too. If Jerry Jones wasn't "furious" about Brady then he has no right to be "furious" over this. Hope all teams get to experience Sheriff Rog and his wrath
 

NickEsasky

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Jesus fucking Christ, will you give it a rest already? I have and did say the same thing about DFG. Feel free to search the vast archives of that clusterfuck if you don't believe me.
Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This is where I am too. If Jerry Jones wasn't "furious" about Brady then he has no right to be "furious" over this. Hope all teams get to experience Sheriff Rog and his wrath
Agreed, though to be fair I hope Kraft comes out in support of changing the process when asked about this suspension, as we know he will be asked. He's no less a hypocrite than JJ if he does otherwise.
 

dcmissle

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I'm just not feeling any need to empathize with any other NFL team or player getting screwed by arbitrary NFL "justice" at this point. This is the regime they all wanted, let them have it.
Feelings have nothing to do with it.

I'm persuaded the League wants no more of messing with TB. I'm not persuaded it's done with the NEP -- not by a damn sight.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Wait, you want to substitute, for our system of police investigation and open, adversarial prosecution, the whims and judgment of Roger Goodell? Are you mad? Yeah, the justice system lets some people who are probably guilty go free, and does so inconsistently. Many times, prosecutorial discretion and limited resources forcing a focus on certain priorities are features, not bugs.

The answer here is that employers shouldn't be in the justice-system game, and if you lead the public to believe that you should be, and that it makes sense for you as an employer to be doing that, you end up with a far bigger PR liability than if you start with a firm line of "we suspend when they receive a conviction or accept a plea".
No I said substitute for internal "done correctly". Not what the NFL has a history of to date.

I'm not talking about guilty people going innocent, slipping by in one place where they might serve time in another. I'm talking about inconsistency that is real. Some prosecutors are elected, some appointed. Some treat non-public cases more lenient than they do celebrities. All crimes aren't the same. There are good jurisdictions and lots of bad ones when it comes to investigation and process. A DUI in this county might take 18 months to get to court, the next county over might have a trial next week.

I think a "good" process under the NFL public conduct policy is needed for consistency, and if they've done this right (which I'm hoping they have), it means they've learned some things from the past and it might get better going forward. But I think the inconsistencies that exist in the real world would not be good for a policy where if the court does something, then the NFL will. Lots of reasons cases don't make it to court, cutting female victims a big check would be high on the list.
 

Greg29fan

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There are only like 57 running backs in the league who could put up massive rushing numbers behind that offensive line. It's going to be tough to replace Elliott.
FWIW they are breaking in a new RT (La'el Collins), don't have a starting LG determined, and Tyron Smith's back is nagging him. There's some chance the line isn't as dominant this season.
 

Bosoxen

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Sorry I didn't mean to set you off, honestly was not trolling or whatever with that comment. The NFL is horrible. I hate it. Love football but just hate the league. I want nothing but bad things to happen to the league office.
Fair enough and I apologize for the outburst. I just really don't feel like we need to re-litigate that, least of all in this thread at this point in time.
 

Bosoxen

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There are only like 57 running backs in the league who could put up massive rushing numbers behind that offensive line. It's going to be tough to replace Elliott.
Sure. But how many of them would have come within a mouse fart of the rookie rushing record, despite a terrible debut and essentially punting the last game and a half?

I'm sympathetic to the idea that just about anyone could have run for 1,000 yards behind that line but I've come around to the notion that there's a vast difference between that and making 1,600 yards look so easy.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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FWIW they are breaking in a new RT (La'el Collins), don't have a starting LG determined, and Tyron Smith's back is nagging him. There's some chance the line isn't as dominant this season.
This is so important to note. Consider the amount of luck, work, and skill that go into a player staying dominant and healthy. Then multiply in by 5 for an offensive line. Other then the Broncos and maybe Chiefs, these high class lines last a few years and then free agency, injuries, and decline in play strike.

I enjoy the throw-back style the Cowboys represent, so I hope this isn't the start of that decline.
 

Greg29fan

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Looks like Dallas might need an RB. I know a team that has a lot of RB's. Get it done, Theo.
They have D McFadden and Alfred Morris and are pretty high on Rod Smith as well, although he's more of a FB. Can't see them acquiring someone else.
 

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Thanks for this--I wasn't sure where to go looking.

Well, looks like they learned to actually consult women and stuff, so that's good.

The way the letter is written is a bit off-putting at first; I spent of the time reading it sorta aghast that it seemed like they were going to put the St. Patrick's Day incident on equal footing with the documented physical abuse of that other woman, which would have been just so NFL.
 

TFisNEXT

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What are the odds the suspension gets reduced?

6 games seems like a lot for such a flimsy case against Elliot. Maybe reduced to 3 or 4?
 

Curt S Loew

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What are the odds the suspension gets reduced?

6 games seems like a lot for such a flimsy case against Elliot. Maybe reduced to 3 or 4?
I doubt it gets reduced, now that the courts have agreed that the players agreed that the league can do whatever it wants.
 

nattysez

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What are the odds the suspension gets reduced?

6 games seems like a lot for such a flimsy case against Elliot. Maybe reduced to 3 or 4?
If he bends the knee, shows contrition to Goodell, and agrees to do community service and anti-domestic violence training, I'll bet it gets knocked down to 4.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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What are the odds the suspension gets reduced?

6 games seems like a lot for such a flimsy case against Elliot. Maybe reduced to 3 or 4?
I don't know how you reduce it in a principled way. The league has put out a letter that says it conducted an investigation, and based on corroborated evidence, has concluded that on more that one occasion the guy physically assaulted and injured an intimate partner.

To reduce it, you would need some kind of mitigation. What mitigation could Elliott offer at an appeal? He's pretty much locked in to the it-didn't-happen, these-witnesses-are-not-credible defense. If he prevails on that defense, the suspension should be knocked down to nothing and he should be exonerated. If he doesn't, it's hard to come up with a principled basis for reducing the penalty.

What do you say? "Elliott in his appeal raised more doubts about whether this really happened, so now we're not as sure, so just in case it didn't happen, we reduce it to 4." You can't do that.

Nor can you say, "well maybe 6 is too much for this kind of domestic violence, 4 is better." Then you get everyone on earth writing the story that say, "well, I guess domestic violence isn't as bad as that football bullshit." I don't think the league is all that up for seeing that story, which is probably why it has now decided that 6 is the right number for this kind of domestic violence.

To make a mitigation argument that would permit a principled reduction, it would have to involve some kind of extenuating circumstances, or maybe he could show that only one of the occurrences is genuine, and he could plead for mercy for an isolated incident. Nothing else really would seem to justify any result other than a binary one -- either it happened or it didn't.

That said, there's the Jerry Jones element, and "principled" and the NFL don't really go together. So, in the end, I agree -- I fully expect it to be reduced to 4 games.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I found this ESPN explanation of the suspension to be helpful. It is very much a guilty-until-proven-innocent standard - we've seen pictures of her bruises, prove that you didn't cause them! - which I find nearly as appalling as beating up women.
I don't think that's fair. The NFL bases its conclusion on a number of factors: (1) the pictures, (2) medical examiner testimony stating that the pictures are consistent with her description of what happened physically, (3) forensic evidence (appearing to be mostly texts and e-mail) that the injuries were sustained at the times she says they were sustained, (4) the absence of any dispute that Elliott and the victim were together on the days she was injured, and (5) no evidence of another assailant, other than Elliott's attempt to show bruising pre-dating the time he was with the victim, which the NFL rejected.

Now, don't get me wrong -- this all could be bullshit. It could be the NFL's version of seeing what it wants to see and the supposed science could be as bullshit as the Exponent science. There are usually not videotapes of domestic violence. I can see this being not quite enough for a prosecutor to go after a famous person and face a no reasonable doubt standard. Especially if the victim might have things in her life that would expose her to difficult cross examination. But, in a context where there is a lower burden of proof, I don't have any problem with basing discipline on this kind of corroboration in a he-said/she-said.

Put another way, I am mistrustful of the NFL, because I believe they are big fat fucking liars who lie, and deflategate tells me I should be skeptical that they are big fat fucking liars who lie here. But, if the evidence they have cited is accurately portrayed, I think this is more than a presumption of guilt. They've built a decent case.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I found this ESPN explanation of the suspension to be helpful. It is very much a guilty-until-proven-innocent standard - we've seen pictures of her bruises, prove that you didn't cause them! - which I find nearly as appalling as beating up women.
Nearly? Really? In one instance you have someone who is being judged by their employer for an alleged misdeed. In the other, you have a weaker party being subjected to physical abuse at the hands of someone with whom they are in an intimate relationship. Even considering the power dynamic, I don't see those two things as comparable under any circumstances.

While I agree that the NFL has done nothing to date to earn the benefit of the doubt when conducting their investigations, the reality is that many employers like them can and do suspend or even terminate employees who are suspected of violating codes of conduct - even absent definitive proof. And if the NFL is going to err on the Draconian punishment side of the spectrum when it comes to domestic abuse, that's a good thing given the league's recent history with this issue.

Furthermore, as was mentioned upthread, the legal system often fails these cases for a variety of reasons spelled out by others. As such, waiting for that process to resolve itself isn't ideal.

One last point, punishment is all well and good but its only half the solution. Per this Deadspin article by Diana Moskovitz (which has been posted on this site before), sports leagues need to provide some form of treatment/counseling resources for those involved. Otherwise, this is just papering over a problem rather than trying to help the victims as well as the abusers.
 

InstaFace

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I place a high value on the integrity of a justice system, which is what this purports to be (though we know it's really about PR rather than, say, ensuring a safe workplace). Others are free to evaluate it differently, this isn't the place for that conversation. I included that merely to explain my interest in the workings of this process, if it can be called that.

Completely agree on the need for counseling, anger management, CBT or whatever else they think will help. It's a practice borne ultimately of longstanding cultural acceptance (in the socioeconomic realms most NFL players hail from) and poor emotional control. Both are fixable.

I don't think that's fair. The NFL bases its conclusion on a number of factors: <snip>, if the evidence they have cited is accurately portrayed, I think this is more than a presumption of guilt. They've built a decent case.
Would it sustain a civil verdict for a plaintiff?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Would it sustain a civil verdict for a plaintiff?
Yeah, I think so -- especially if it's true its undisputed that they were in an intimate relationship.

Woman in a relationship with a guy gets beat up on three separate occasions when he's with her for part of the day, says he did it, and medical evidence is consistent with how she describes the assault? If a jury found for her, it would completely stand. Of course, it's a different question because she would have testify under oath, and so would he, and that changes everything. Is he going to perjure himself? Is she? Is the jury going to analyze their credibility?

The NFL can't put people under oath. So, in this case, they had to use a substitute for credibility -- they say that the prosecutor said he believed the woman.
 

Reverend

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What are the odds the suspension gets reduced?

6 games seems like a lot for such a flimsy case against Elliot. Maybe reduced to 3 or 4?
As per DDB's posts, this letter looks pretty tight. Which makes a lot of sense: They got the court ruling they wanted in Brady v. Righteousness, so now it makes sense to play it by the book, cross every i and dot every t to maintain that status quo going into the next CBA bargaining session.

If the players want to change discipline, they're going to have to pay for it. The Shield sucks at punishment because they don't give a shit about justice. This is about negotiations over money; they're not likely to fuck this up the same way.

I would expect any legal moves to be as much about, if not more, the union and the league trying to find some purchase and position for the above.
 

RG33

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Jesus fucking Christ, will you give it a rest already? I have and did say the same thing about DFG. Feel free to search the vast archives of that clusterfuck if you don't believe me.
Hyper-sensitive DFG Post Alert! Hyper-sensitive DFG Post Alert!

Seriously, the faux-venom towards any mention of DFG has officially replaced the actual stupid non-funny references to DGF posts. Enough already.

The letter makes it seem like they have some pretty good goods on Elliott. I would be surprised with more than a 1 game reduction.

And, oh yeah, Fuck Jerrah Jones and his condescending holier-than-thou support of RG in 2016. Suck it buddy.
 

mauidano

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Gonna cost Zeke some serious dough. Six games salary, incentive bonuses and he has to pay back some the signing bonus money.

Looks like the NFL did their homework and fuck this guy if this is true. He's a jerk and so is anyone defending him so he can play....football for their favorite team.
 

dcmissle

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Hyper-sensitive DFG Post Alert! Hyper-sensitive DFG Post Alert!

Seriously, the faux-venom towards any mention of DFG has officially replaced the actual stupid non-funny references to DGF posts. Enough already.

The letter makes it seem like they have some pretty good goods on Elliott. I would be surprised with more than a 1 game reduction.

And, oh yeah, Fuck Jerrah Jones and his condescending holier-than-thou support of RG in 2016. Suck it buddy.
Except, in context, the DFG reference was an unnecessary log on the fire. All Bo said was the punishment was appropriate if the alleged conduct occurred, but color him skeptical. My recollection is that he found the DFG punishment and process unjust, and I recall no Dallas fan here rallying to the Commissioner, or Jerry's defense of him, when this played out.