2017 Gronk: Mojo Gronk

johnmd20

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I think part of the confusion may be the need to go all in on skill vs attribute. Let's talk about me, for example because that's always an awesome subject.

I broke my nose about a dozen times boxing. Part of that was skill: early on my defense sucked and I'd get hit flush. Part of that was an attribute: some fighters have flat noses that never really break. I have the other kind.

I also had 3 hand surgeries. That was an attribute. On the third surgery, the dr. told me that my forearm bone (ulna or the other guy) was a fraction of a millimeter longer than normal so that when I turned over my punches and made contact it would fray the tendon or ligament. After he shaved the bone, I had far fewer issues.
This is the best example of what I was trying to talk about a few pages ago. Some bodies are made in a way that injuries happen more often, despite the same trauma. The best players in the world have the best physiology. What this means to me is that the way NFL football players' bodies move, a hit that isn't anything to them would literally put 98% of this board in the hospital, with either broken bones, muscle contusions, or torn ligaments. They are just made better and a good portion of that is training but a lot of it is the luck of the draw with their genes.

It is just the way they are made, the way their limbs stretch under stress, and the way they bounce back from, or off of, trauma. And some are prone to injury relative to their peers for the same hits.

This is not a knock on Gronk, he's a monster. But he's got some kind of flaw where these fluke things end up taking him off the field. Whereas, these fluke things don't effect Jason Witten, Tony Gonzalez, or Antonio Gates. Maybe they don't play as hard and they avoid all contact unless it's completely unavoidable.

But Gronk was a 2nd round pick because he was an injury question mark. And now he's 3 back surgeries deep. I'm worried for his health at this point, not whether or not he's going to play again.
 

lexrageorge

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I'm no expert in the area, but I would certainly agree that there are players that due to various physiological traits (or attributes) are more durable, resistant to various types of injuries, etc. We often see rookies that get hurt early in training camp and are never able to get themselves on the field often enough to become a useful player. I recall Adrian Klemm and Ras-I Dowling as 2 such examples. I'm not sure I would call those traits that allow a player to avoid injury a "skill", but that's a semantic point.

And there are likely players that put themselves at more risk from injury based on the way they play; that may be truly be a skill. I do recall Bobby Orr discussing how he skated a certain way that could have caused his knees to be more exposed to significant injury. But Orr had no interest in altering his playing style solely to lengthen his career, and presumably Gronk may feel the same way.

Where I think it gets trickier is determining whether a specific injury to a specific player is due to one of those physiological traits, or just due to bad luck resulting from so many hits. No matter the player, there are hits (or falls or other mishaps) that would essentially send any player to the injured reserve list. Plant your feet enough times while juking out a defender and the result is a Wes Welker style injury; get hit enough times throwing the ball and you have Tom Brady. And the answer to whether a specific injury is due to a trait or a skill or just bad luck will probably remain unknowable in many cases; I don't forsee any NFL players undergoing a clinical trial where they get hit in the knee the same way after catching a pass over the middle.

I generally agree with most of what has been posted here. I just think there's a tremendous amount of luck and randomness with these injuries as well, and that the hot takez folks in the media hate talking about luck and randomness because they don't even want to begin to understand what those terms mean. So I tend to sometimes overreact when I hear things like "avoiding injury in the NFL is a skill". As for Gronk, time will tell, and if he decides to hang them up in March I will not blame him in the slightest. But I do believe Volin was full of crap in his Sunday notes article (I'll avoid dumbing down the thread by giving any further description of what he wrote).
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I think part of the confusion may be the need to go all in on skill vs attribute. Let's talk about me, for example because that's always an awesome subject.

I broke my nose about a dozen times boxing. Part of that was skill: early on my defense sucked and I'd get hit flush. Part of that was an attribute: some fighters have flat noses that never really break. I have the other kind.

I also had 3 hand surgeries. That was an attribute. On the third surgery, the dr. told me that my forearm bone (ulna or the other guy) was a fraction of a millimeter longer than normal so that when I turned over my punches and made contact it would fray the tendon or ligament. After he shaved the bone, I had far fewer issues.
Wuss.
 

ifmanis5

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Young Gronk: http://wpri.com/2017/01/30/vetting-the-patriots-on-the-bus-ride-to-houston/

“So we’re playing a home game and we have 68 points – now it’s not a blowout, but it’s not a particularly close game either. So he [Gronkowski] gets fouled and goes to the free throw line. He hits the first one to get us to 69 and the place goes nuts because he’s playing into it. On his next free throw, he purposely chucks the ball off the backboard and misses so the score would stay at 69 and then runs back on defense pointing at the scoreboard.”
 

Leather

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It really sucks the game isn't a week later so he could probably play.
 

Van Everyman

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Watching the Seahawks Super Bowl on NFLN right now and Gronk was a big part of that last "championship" drive. [emoji22]
 

Blue Monkey

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It really sucks the game isn't a week later so he could probably play.
I hear ya. A little part of me is relieved that Gronk is out. The Patriots game plan won't need to figure out a way to work Gronk into the action. They've played without him for the last 2 months. Having him on the field may have bogged down the offense. They are pretty much peaking at the right time now, no need to mess with what's working.
 

BigSoxFan

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I hear ya. A little part of me is relieved that Gronk is out. The Patriots game plan won't need to figure out a way to work Gronk into the action. They've played without him for the last 2 months. Having him on the field may have bogged down the offense. They are pretty much peaking at the right time now, no need to mess with what's working.
His presence was probably a net negative in SB46 (although he did nearly catch the hail mary). The offense has successfully re-invented itself without him and I like how some of the guys have stepped up. Would certainly love a healthy Gronk but not sure a less-than-100% one helps us that much.
 

Leather

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I don't understand how this keeps coming up. Gronk is on IR, he was never going to play in the Super Bowl. That ship sailed the moment they activated Brissett in December.
This point does not necessarily refute mine.
 

JohnnyK

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As a non-native speaker I am somewhat uncomfortable arguing semantics with you guys, but that sentence definitely doesn't imply what you're saying it implies.

And does anyone really believe they would not have put him on IR if the game were a week later? I think they got a pretty good idea of the recovery period after the surgery and determined that there was no chance he would be ready.
 

johnmd20

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Full stop.

His point was if the game was even a week later it's possible they wouldn't have put him on IR.
Full stop, you think a week would have made a difference? It wouldn't. Gronk wasn't playing, unless they played the Super Bowl in August. He broke his back. Your first game back isn't the super bowl. He wouldn't have been ready.

edit - just to add, Gronk started his rehab January 9th. Less than a month ago. Yeah, if the Super Bowl was February 12th, I'm sure he would have been ready to play. But February 5th? Impossible.
 

Number45forever

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Just rest up and spend from now until training camp working with the TB12 crew on pliability. Gronk, that's all we ask. Then let's go 19-0 next season.
 

SumnerH

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Full stop, you think a week would have made a difference? It wouldn't. Gronk wasn't playing, unless they played the Super Bowl in August. He broke his back. Your first game back isn't the super bowl. He wouldn't have been ready.

edit - just to add, Gronk started his rehab January 9th. Less than a month ago. Yeah, if the Super Bowl was February 12th, I'm sure he would have been ready to play. But February 5th? Impossible.
At the time of the injury there was a lot of speculation about him maybe being back for the Super Bowl. That's probably dumb, but the idea that he wouldn't be back unless the game was in August is equally dumb; a few weeks would've made a return plausible.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/gronk-needs-back-surgery-out-8-weeks-12-1.6440/page-14#post-2036226
 

Reverend

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At the time of the injury there was a lot of speculation about him maybe being back for the Super Bowl. That's probably dumb, but the idea that he wouldn't be back unless the game was in August is equally dumb; a few weeks would've made a return plausible.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/gronk-needs-back-surgery-out-8-weeks-12-1.6440/page-14#post-2036226
I don't think Belichick would have made the decision for a roster spot for that many weeks on the margins.

August is certainly an exaggeration, but on this side of the debate, we're not even close to being within the error bar ranges that would have kept Billy from pulling the trigger on IR for Gronk, which I think is the real point here.
 

snowmanny

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I do like how Hightower gives Freeman a shove so as to alert him to the fact that something big is about to happen and he probably doesn't want to miss it.
 

Old Fart Tree

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I do like how Hightower gives Freeman a shove so as to alert him to the fact that something big is about to happen and he probably doesn't want to miss it.
Ha! That was a thing!! That was a thing that happened!!!

Even a month later I still just kinda marvel at it all.
 

hbk72777

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Same shit 30+ years later. People cried about Perry, Fralic and the rest being in the WM 2 Battle royal, they'll be crying tomrrow too
 

edmunddantes

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That makes me laugh too...after missing the block Freeman chases Hightower. Like the proverbial dog chasing the car, what was Freeman's plan should he actually catch up?
Try to recover the fumble he knew was probably going to happen because he f'ed up?

You know, a twisted version of "follow your shot", but even then he sort of half assed it like he did his block.
 

reggiecleveland

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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701342-mike-freemans-10-point-stance-players-see-double-standard-with-gronk?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

MIKE FREEMAN'S 10-POINT STANCE: PLAYERS SEE DOUBLE STANDARD WITH GRONK
What sets Gronk apart from other players is how he parties in a highly public manner. It isn't hard to find a long list of such moments.

That's great. I wish all players did this. They should be allowed to party as much as they want and be as public as they want.

However, I recently heard from four players, two from each conference, who all wondered if Gronkowski is held to a different standard than others in the league.

None wanted to be quoted, even on an off-the-record basis, but each made the point that they didn't think a player such as Cam Newton could do what Gronk does without public backlash.

My take is that it is a double edged sword. Gronk plays the lovable big dummie. I expect portrayal few players, especially black players would embrace that role. I mean a commercial with Vince Wolfork acting like an illiterate caveman would be seen as racist. Gronk has (unintentionally or other wise, but I believe intentionally) played into the stereotype of the ignorant middle america drunken fool. The article mentions he is one of the hardest workers, and his performance on the field does not show him a fool.
 

pokey_reese

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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701342-mike-freemans-10-point-stance-players-see-double-standard-with-gronk?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

MIKE FREEMAN'S 10-POINT STANCE: PLAYERS SEE DOUBLE STANDARD WITH GRONK


My take is that it is a double edged sword. Gronk plays the lovable big dummie. I expect portrayal few players, especially black players would embrace that role. I mean a commercial with Vince Wolfork acting like an illiterate caveman would be seen as racist. Gronk has (unintentionally or other wise, but I believe intentionally) played into the stereotype of the ignorant middle america drunken fool. The article mentions he is one of the hardest workers, and his performance on the field does not show him a fool.
I think the issue is that there are a number of cases where other players, who work just as hard as Gronk when they prepare and play, take flack for partying when they are 'off the clock' while Gronk generally doesn't? However, I do recall some criticism of him by the media when he was dancing while recovering from some surgeries, I think forearm?
 

reggiecleveland

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I agree, and as Pats fan,I am not crazy about the boozing. I do believe it is unfair that a good ol' white guy is a lovable party animal, but it comes with the "GRONK SMASH" idiot persona.

At any rate, it is all attached to him playing well. If he declines as a player the "GRONK" persona is less appealing.