2017 NBA Draft Thread

DannyDarwinism

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Did you watch the game, or any of the early tourney games? He was hitting long 2's with ease last night.
London's right though, you go under those screens every time against Fox, and if he beats you with long twos, you live with it. Especially with a guy like Ball who still has the length to contest after going under. You go over and Fox is going to get in the lane and wreak havoc all night.
 

sezwho

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Man this is a fun draft class to be following! You can really understand the desire for these bottom dwelling NBA teams to tank. For those that may have missed the Suns/Celtics game, Mike Gorman had a great stat that the Suns starters averaged younger than seven out of the eight teams that played on Thursday night's Sweet 16 round. Obviously Booker should be playing either way though. Wow
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Fox can't shoot. At all.
The fact Ucla can't defend a basic pick and roll is the issue.
Ball is a better off ball defender for me anyway but the one thing with ball in the pick and roll is to dare him to shoot the pull up. Ucla was going over (badly) every time! I have literally no idea why you would do that.
I don't know that gives you much insight as a result. Ball didn't adjust, but coaching? Fox still can't shoot.
Fox for me is barely top 10.
Fox just turned 19 years old. He doesn't have to be able to shoot yet although I feel you're overstating his ability right now. He's shooting FT at 73% and has solid mechanics to grow this area of his game. Fox has all the physicals and is only lacking the most easily learnable skill for a PG.
 

RedOctober3829

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Fox just turned 19 years old. He doesn't have to be able to shoot yet although I feel you're overstating his ability right now. He's shooting FT at 73% and has solid mechanics to grow this area of his game. Fox has all the physicals and is only lacking the most easily learnable skill for a PG.
Many future NBA PGs his age improved their shot from age 18-22 in college. The problem with phenoms today is that they have to do it while being in the NBA. Instead of honing their game for 4 years, taking 500 shots a day during the summer, and being on a college weight program they are having to do all this while on their rookie contract. It's a tough thing being a young player these days. The angst over players not being perfect in every sense of their game at 18 and 19 is absurd. Not directing this toward anyone in particular just a generalization.
 

DJnVa

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In the last month he's shooting 57% from field, 78% from line and 46% from 3.

Small sample of 8 games but it does encompass essentially 25% of the season, and the games are more important.
 

JakeRae

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Many future NBA PGs his age improved their shot from age 18-22 in college. The problem with phenoms today is that they have to do it while being in the NBA. Instead of honing their game for 4 years, taking 500 shots a day during the summer, and being on a college weight program they are having to do all this while on their rookie contract. It's a tough thing being a young player these days. The angst over players not being perfect in every sense of their game at 18 and 19 is absurd. Not directing this toward anyone in particular just a generalization.
I don't think there is "angst" over his ability to shoot or a denial of his potential to improve. There is a general concern that, as a top 5 pick, he has not yet shown that ability. It's a ridiculous straw man to say that this is a "tough thing" for a young player. It wasn't that long ago that these guys were coming to the league after high school. And, even ignoring that, no one is forcing these kids to leave after one year. They are doing it because it is better to get paid now, especially because it means that the flaws in your game can be discounted due to the ability to improve, than it is to play 4 years in college and develop your game against lesser competition. Finally, it's not exactly hard to get shooting reps in the D league.

To bring things back to my initial point though, there is nothing unfair about judging a potential top 5 pick on what he can do now as well as on his projection. He's not a failure, or a bad player, or a bad prospect because there are question marks about his shooting, but it legitimately is part of a conversation about how high be should be drafted. On the other hand, shooting concerns seem to be a common attribute of this year's draft class, and Fox doesn't seem to really be different from the other high lottery picks. While his 3 point percentage is much worse, his FT% is over 5 points better than any of the consensus top 3 picks. Note: Tatum and Monk both project well statistically as NBA shooters, so it's not like this draft class is devoid of easily projectable shooters at the top.
 

snowmanny

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Watching Monk - or perhaps watching how Monk was coached - last night was so frustrating. He basically never moved without the ball: he'd go whole time clock possessions standing in one spot with a man three feet off of him. Monk has a terrific shot, but Fox seems way more interested in participating in the entire game. I have no idea which one of those guys I'd take first.
 

chilidawg

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I'd take Fox. He has ideal size and athleticism for his position, so seems to be able to tick everything you want in a point, except maybe shooting. But his shooting form looks good and he's shot well of late, so I think that's going to come around.

Monk is great at the most important thing a SG needs to do, shoot, but doesn't bring much else, and given his undersized stature, isn't likely to, imo.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'd take Fox. He has ideal size and athleticism for his position, so seems to be able to tick everything you want in a point, except maybe shooting. But his shooting form looks good and he's shot well of late, so I think that's going to come around.
After Fultz, Fox seems the best athlete of the bunch when factoring in position. Yes, Jackson is a great athlete but is he really a top-5 wing in terms of athleticism?

Fox can get wherever he wants and contact doesn't seem to mean that much to him. PGs who can get where they want are going to succeed in the NBA, even if they don't shoot so well immediately.

For example, Fox seems like a stronger version of Elfrid Payton.
 

thehitcat

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After Fultz, Fox seems the best athlete of the bunch when factoring in position. Yes, Jackson is a great athlete but is he really a top-5 wing in terms of athleticism?

Fox can get wherever he wants and contact doesn't seem to mean that much to him. PGs who can get where they want are going to succeed in the NBA, even if they don't shoot so well immediately.

For example, Fox seems like a stronger version of Elfrid Payton.
I was thinking Rondo which I don't think works well in Brad's offense. I think you need shooting from your guard and wing spots and if they can drop off and dare you to shoot while limiting your penetration you are neutering the entire set. Just my opinion but as much as I like Rajon I don't think fit is here for Fox. If we don't get Fultz I'd probably go to Jackson of Kansas next and then probably Tatum (I don't like Ball's shot, the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to go both ways and his loud father.)
 

thehitcat

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And you gotta think that Fox is going to be a better shooter than Samrt.
I guess you and I disagree on the definition of "works." I guess you could say that Marcus "works" in this offense in a kind of hybrid big role. Most of his touches once he initiates and moves, come in the block or at the end of the clock for a heave. Fox isn't that guy, he's Rondo/E. Payton. He's ball dominant, a handler without a shot. Marcus also doesn't seem to have a shot but he doesn't require being ball dominant to be effective. I love Marcus for what he brings on the defensive end and for his tenacious rebounding, not for his offense.
 

HomeRunBaker

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TJ Leaf entering the draft, will sign with an agent, per Jeff Goodman.

EDIT: Same for Melo Trimble and Lauri Markkanen, per the Twitterverse.
Trimble will be taking a severe pay cut going from Syracuse to the D-League.
 

Ale Xander

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TJ Leaf entering the draft, will sign with an agent, per Jeff Goodman.

EDIT: Same for Melo Trimble and Lauri Markkanen, per the Twitterverse.
I like Lauri's game a lot, would be an improvement for the Amir spot
 

Drocca

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Probably not. Would you trade 1(or 2) to Philadelphia for 4 & 7?
In a cocaine heartbeat I would. The real muscle of this draft is the sheer depth of quality not necessarily a can't miss perennial all-star at the top.

Put another way, would you rather have Fultz or Fox and Lauri? Or Isaac and Tatum?
 

JakeRae

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There are these things called trades.
Fair. I suppose if we end up trading Bradley, he could net pick in that range. Of the teams drafting there, only Philly is really a roster fit though. Philly could be an ideal fit for Bradley if Simmons ends up playing point forward for them. Bradley could start at the 1 defensively and not need to run the point on offense, which is the ideal use of his skill set. Philly badly needs floor spacing, and the value is probably more or less correct. A trade like this might also free up enough cap space to sign a marquee FA without losing Olynyk. On the other hand, it would make for a team that is trying to compete breaking in 4 rookies next year. That doesn't seem desirable, so I'd think we're more likely, even if we are trading Bradley, to look for NBA talent back or picks further into the future.
 

amfox1

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Updated as of 4/6am

Declared for the draft, signing with an agent:

Dwayne Bacon, Florida State
Lonzo Ball, UCLA
Isaiah Briscoe, Kentucky
Juwan Evans, Oklahoma State
De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
Markelle Fultz, Washington
Harry Giles, Duke
Jonathan Isaac, Florida State
Luke Kennard, Duke
T.J. Leaf, UCLA
Tyler Lydon, Syracuse
Lauri Markkanen, Arizona
Malik Monk, Kentucky
Austin Nichols, Virginia
Justin Patton, Creighton
L.J. Peak, Georgetown
Ivan Rabb, California
Xavier Rathan-Mayes, Florida State
Kobi Simmons, Arizona
Dennis Smith, Jr., NC State
Edmond Sumner, Xavier
Jayson Tatum, Duke
Melo Trimble, Maryland

Declared but won't hire agent:

Bam Adebayo, Kentucky
Deng Adel, Louisville
Jashaun Agost, LIU Brooklyn
Jarrett Allen, Texas
Ike Anigbogu, UCLA
Trevon Bluiett, Xavier
Bennie Boatwright, USC
Tony Bradley, North Carolina
Rodney Bullock, Providence
Khadeen Carrington, Seton Hall
Jeffrey Carroll, Oklahoma State
Joseph Chartouny, Fordham
John Collins, Wake Forest
Angel Delgado, Seton Hall
Jon Elmore, Marshall
Drew Eubanks, Oregon State
Tacko Fall, Central Florida
B.J. Johnson, LaSalle
Jaylen Johnson, Louisville
Andrew Jones, Texas
Marcus Keene, Central Michigan
Kyle Kuzma, Utah
Eric Mika, BYU
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
Semi Ojeleye, SMU
Cameron Oliver, Nevada
Corey Sanders, Rutgers
Jaaron Simmons, Ohio
Fred Sims, Chicago State
Jaren Sina, George Washington
Caleb Swanigan, Purdue
Stephen Thompson, Oregon State
Trevor Thompson, Ohio State
Thomas Wilder, Western Michigan
Omer Yurtseven, NC State

Waiting to hear from, among others:

Josh Jackson, Kansas
Miles Bridges, Michigan State
Zach Collins, Gonzaga
OG Anunoby, Indiana
Thomas Bryant, Indiana
Grayson Allen, Duke
Justin Jackson, North Carolina
Dillon Brooks, Oregon
Nigel Williams-Goss, Gonzaga
 
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wibi

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Expectation out of Gonzaga is that NWG and Collins will both declare but not get agents
 

NoXInNixon

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What's the advantage of hiring an agent before the draft? If you're a sure lottery pick, I guess it doesn't matter. But otherwise I don't see the benefit, only risk.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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What's the advantage of hiring an agent before the draft? If you're a sure lottery pick, I guess it doesn't matter. But otherwise I don't see the benefit, only risk.
Maybe the agent has relationships with teams? Is able to get you private workouts or interviews? Imagine being a 20 year old kid, you have no idea how to do any of this stuff. And, if you hire an agent, you are most likely (save for the few knuckleheads that declare for no real reason every year) you are most likely playing ball next year, whether it's in the NBA, D - League or overseas.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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What's the advantage of hiring an agent before the draft? If you're a sure lottery pick, I guess it doesn't matter. But otherwise I don't see the benefit, only risk.
It's really complicated just setting up itineraries and accommodations and stiff like that for getting to the various workouts and agents do that for kids. Plus some of the training tuff these kids do are uber-expensive and the agents front the fees.

It's hard to pit your best foot forward without an agent helping out.
 

DJnVa

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And you don't need to be a surefire lottery guy to get a deal with an apparel company.

For instance, Kent Bazemore went undrafted, but had a small UA deal: http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2016/3/24/11295480/kent-bazemore-steph-curry-under-armour

The story begins with Bazemore as a rookie trying to make the Golden State team. His agent managed to convince Under Armour to sign him on two selling points. The first selling point was to sign a player in the West. The second selling point, two other players on the Golden State team had shoe contracts about to expire. So Under Armour signed Bazemore and sent him a ton of gear.
And that small deal with Bazemore helped them land Curry.
 

HomeRunBaker

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What's the advantage of hiring an agent before the draft? If you're a sure lottery pick, I guess it doesn't matter. But otherwise I don't see the benefit, only risk.
The agent is CRUCIAL for the large majority of prospects in arranging workouts, scheduling them properly and placing certain guidelines on them to protect his client.

* Nearly all (probably all) agents have business arrangements with world class training centers. They will send their clients there for weeks leading up to the combine and individual workouts to work specifically on the drills/activities that their client will be going through during these workouts to best prepare them.

* There are 30 teams looking to bring you in and you have like a 2-week (or less) window to schedule these workouts around travel and proper rest so your client can perform at an optimal level. We hear all the time about this player who "worked out bad" but what we don't know is that they may have been in LA on Tues, Memphis on Wed, Houston on Thurs, and Boston on Fri. It is the agents responsibility to best schedule these workouts and only with the teams in the mix or where you'd like to go. When you hear that "so and so refused to workout for the Celtics" it isn't necessarily that he hates the Celtics but that there were better fits for his client or teams that had greater chances to draft the player higher. The agent also places restrictions on the workouts so if his client is a good spot-up shooter but struggles off the dribble or shooting from the wing it is in his best interest to limit the shooting drills to catch-and-shoot as to not further expose his client to his weaknesses.

* The agent is the one working and shopping for guarantees and are the guys controlling player movement in the league. He has the relationships with the GM's to where he can sell his clients strengths to the team. He also knows which team has the most interest in his client and which doesn't.......which is tied in to the workout scheduling and workout restrictions as well.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think I would hire an agent, but our own Jaylen Brown seems to have done just fine.

Jaylen Brown could change how rookies enter the league - Boston.com
Yeah, Jaylen is one of the unique individuals who combine the intelligence that most 19-year old kids don't possess along with the advantage of only having a small handful of teams to focus on. I did state "large majority" as I never really understood why consensus #1 (or 2) picks wouldn't do this without paying the huge chunk of commission.

I think as time goes on we are going to see more and more of Jaylen doing great things off the court as well. He has a laser focus that few teenagers possess.....the stories of his 5am workouts because he wanted to emulate Kobe gives us an idea of where his head is at.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Miles Bridges, consensus lottery pick, leaning towards returning to MSU. I'm pretty surprised by this because given his lack of length for an NBA 4, I don't see much possibility that he plays his way into the top 5 next year, and if he struggles with his shot and doesn't show improvement as a playmaker, he could drop out of the lottery altogether. I do like his game though, and regardless of what Ainge thinks of him, it's good for the Celtics to have more top end talent in next year's draft.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Miles Bridges, consensus lottery pick, leaning towards returning to MSU. I'm pretty surprised by this because given his lack of length for an NBA 4, I don't see much possibility that he plays his way into the top 5 next year, and if he struggles with his shot and doesn't show improvement as a playmaker, he could drop out of the lottery altogether. I do like his game though, and regardless of what Ainge thinks of him, it's good for the Celtics to have more top end talent in next year's draft.
He's a 3, not a 4. He was forced into the 4 because MSU's front court depth got decimated on the first day of practice last year losing 2 bigs for the season. He will almost exclusively play the 3 next year. As a Spartan fan I'm thrilled to have him back a 2nd year.
 

Drocca

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As a college hoops fan Miles Bridges is my favorite non-Carolina player in a long, long time. (I also like DJ Wilson a lot as a college player so I've got some weird Michigan thing going on right now). So happy if he comes back and I'll be putting coin down on him winning the Naismith. I am in love with his game at the college level.
 

DannyDarwinism

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He's a 3, not a 4. He was forced into the 4 because MSU's front court depth got decimated on the first day of practice last year losing 2 bigs for the season. He will almost exclusively play the 3 next year. As a Spartan fan I'm thrilled to have him back a 2nd year.
Yeah, my point was, that since he doesn't have the length to play the the 4 consistently at the next level, his value is going to be capped. But this point, I think he'll pretty clearly play some minutes as a combo forward in the NBA, given the direction of the modern game. Unless he makes big strides in his ball-handling and general perimeter play, he gonna be a pretty unconventional 3, but add a inch or two of height and a couple of inches in length, and he'd be a great stretch 4 prospect. Given his young age for his class, some growth isn't entirely out of the question. I love his attitude and motor (in addition to his strength and athleticism), so hopefully he'll be able to fill the gaps in his game at the 3. As a casual MSU fan, I'd be happy to see him in East Lansing for another year.
 

nighthob

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Miles Bridges, consensus lottery pick, leaning towards returning to MSU. I'm pretty surprised by this because given his lack of length for an NBA 4, I don't see much possibility that he plays his way into the top 5 next year, and if he struggles with his shot and doesn't show improvement as a playmaker, he could drop out of the lottery altogether. I do like his game though, and regardless of what Ainge thinks of him, it's good for the Celtics to have more top end talent in next year's draft.
Apparently money doesn't mean a lot to him because I doubt his draft position improves at all. So all he's going to accomplish is delaying his second contract and playing a year at NCAA wages rather than late lottery pick wages.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Apparently money doesn't mean a lot to him because I doubt his draft position improves at all. So all he's going to accomplish is delaying his second contract and playing a year at NCAA wages rather than late lottery pick wages.
Not quite as surprising to me as Robert Williams, who was truly a shock given the relative weakness of this year's center class, but yeah, it's certainly rolling the dice financially. Apparently Bridges consulted Gary Harris about the decision. It's a bit refreshing to see an elite prospect actually think twice about making the jump. If he stays, I hope it works out for him. Another year learning from Izzo and being The Guy could benefit his long term development.
 

Kliq

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IIRC, Marcus Smart was in the discussion to be the number one overall pick if he came out after his freshmen season (the year Bennett went number one) and he decided to go back to Oklahoma State for an extra year. His draft stock fell a bit but that was more because the next year had much more elite talent. I'm not sure if that extra year helped him as a player, I know he said at the time he wanted to work on his outside shot and well, we know how that has gone.

Ivan Rabb stayed an extra year and has paid dearly for that one.
 

Drocca

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IIRC, Marcus Smart was in the discussion to be the number one overall pick if he came out after his freshmen season (the year Bennett went number one) and he decided to go back to Oklahoma State for an extra year. His draft stock fell a bit but that was more because the next year had much more elite talent. I'm not sure if that extra year helped him as a player, I know he said at the time he wanted to work on his outside shot and well, we know how that has gone.

Ivan Rabb stayed an extra year and has paid dearly for that one.
This could be an interesting discussion ---- what players have IMPROVED their financial outcomes by staying? I intentionally used "financial outcomes" instead of "draft slot" because there are plenty of guys that have improved their draft slot BUT did they do so enough to make up for a missing year of NBA salary? In fact, is it even mathematically possible to do so? I think you'd almost have to be considered "undrafted" to drafted to do it.

I follow UNC so looking back at their current pro players:

Harrison Barnes - probably picked in the same general area after two years as he would have after one. Cost him $$$.

Reggie Bullock - 25th overall pick after his first really strong season at UNC in his third year, but he was the 16th ranked recruit in that class, had great 3 point shooting percentage #'s and just wasn't receiving the ball a ton on a team not designed for 2 guards to thrive so I'll make a case that if he leaves after one or two years he gets drafted in the second round and ends up with the same NBA career.

Vince Carter - could have left after middle school

Ed Davis - cost himself money and ended up with a season ending injury in his second and final year.

Wayne Ellington - the #8 recruit in his class and #1 overall shooting guard. He was a great shooter but the NBA was not valuing that skill at the same level as they are today, at least as a stand alone skill. After one year he probably goes late second round or undrafted, instead after three years goes #28. Hard to say with this one.

Raymond Felton - could have come out sooner and would have been drafted maybe 5-10 spots lower but would have made up for it with an extra year of earnings.

Danny Green - We found one!!! But he was such a late bloomer that he actually didn't become an NBA player until he was in the midst of his NBA career. He didn't even have much of an option to come out early.

John Henson - same as Felton, would have slipped some but his size and potential would have him drafted in the late first after one or two years.

Brice Johnson - tough one. His senior year is when he makes the jump so I think we can place him in the "made money by staying" camp only because he might not have made an NBA roster without that senior year

James Michael McAdoo - famously cost himself money but has ringzzz

Tyler Zeller - not sure. I'm not even sure why he's an NBA player to be honest. So I'll say he could have come out one year earlier and been drafted in the second as opposed to 17th overall and made up for it in career money since apparently he works hard enough to be an NBA player.

That's only one school, obviously, but I only see two examples of players that potentially made themselves money by staying and in both cases you have to find guys that otherwise would not have made the league. If you can make a roster you almost certainly are costing yourself money by staying simply by how short a career you have to cash checks and a minimum of ~$500,000 is just SO much more than "$0*"

(*note - obviously this is school dependent as a rookie minimum salary would be a decrease in compensation at Kentucky).
 

DannyDarwinism

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This could be an interesting discussion ---- what players have IMPROVED their financial outcomes by staying? I intentionally used "financial outcomes" instead of "draft slot" because there are plenty of guys that have improved their draft slot BUT did they do so enough to make up for a missing year of NBA salary? In fact, is it even mathematically possible to do so? I think you'd almost have to be considered "undrafted" to drafted to do it.
Anyone remember where Blake Griffin was projected after his freshman year? I think he was a guy who surprised people by staying. I'm not sure what the rookie scale was back then, but under the current scale the #1 pick would make about 5.2 million more over his first three years than the #5 pick, who's first year salary would be $3,227,100. It matters more at the top of the draft- the differences in draft slot salary decrease as you move down the draft board.