2017 NBA offseason thread

slamminsammya

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I think he is one of the top 10-15 players in the NBA. I don't think there are 10-15 point guards in the league that are better than him.
Basketball is great because we can watch the same game and have such wildly different opinions about whos good and whats going on. Here is an oh what the hell sporcle style list of players I think are obviously better than Irving, even before appealing to fancy stats.

Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, Paul, Leonard, Westbrook, Butler, Davis, Cousins, Wall, Lillard, Giannis, McCollum.

I could keep going and that is 14 right there without much thought. Why do people like Kyrie so much? Is it all the fancy scoring and dribbling?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Basketball is great because we can watch the same game and have such wildly different opinions about whos good and whats going on. Here is an oh what the hell sporcle style list of players I think are obviously better than Irving, even before appealing to fancy stats.

Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, Paul, Leonard, Westbrook, Butler, Davis, Cousins, Wall, Lillard, Giannis, McCollum.

I could keep going and that is 14 right there without much thought. Why do people like Kyrie so much? Is it all the fancy scoring and dribbling?
They don't. That was one poster. Most people have him in the group with IT4. He's probably in the same group with McCollum and Lillard too.
 

DJnVa

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Woj writing on espn.com says James really shouldn't complain, Irving is simply following the blueprint James follows. If James is unwilling to commit to Cleveland, why should he? Use leverage when you have it.
 

BigSoxFan

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Woj writing on espn.com says James really shouldn't complain, Irving is simply following the blueprint James follows. If James is unwilling to commit to Cleveland, why should he? Use leverage when you have it.
Yup. Stars or even quasi-stars like Kyrie have an enormous amount of influence in today's game. I don't blame Kyrie for doing what it takes to land in a better situation once LeBron, as expected, bolts to go to LA next summer.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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One other thing that needs to be clarified. Irving is under control for only two more seasons. The last year of his contract is a player option and its almost a mortal lock that he will explore free agency then. So any team acquiring him needs to factor that in to their calculus in making an offer to the Cavs.
 

Tony C

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I'll say this....
Lebron's on the floor game is team oriented, and may be fun to play with.
Everything else about being in the same franchise as LeBron sounds awful. Especially with the way his business interests in Klutch sports and leveraging his constant threats to opt out and leave into signings of the guys he wants.
LeBron may be a dream on-court, but overall he's maybe the single most high maintenance, passive aggressive pain in the ass in the entire league. This isn't Tim Duncan we're talking about, it's completely reasonable to be pretty sick of him after a while, especially when it looks like another year of aggravation with a team that got worse from not being good enough to beat GS.
And you know all of this...how?

To me bashing either Kyrie or LeBron is besides the point. We have no idea who said what/did what and engaging in that game is silly.

In re basketball, though, I do disagree with one assumption in this thread. Yes, Irving rates poorly by defensive metrics and deservedly so based on my eyes. But he's not IT in that he has the physical skills to be better defensively and it seems to me during the playoffs we see him up his defensive game and demonstrate that. That's not ideal nor is it particularly admirable, but it does mean that in big moments -- which is what really matters for teams with high aspirations -- his defensive numbers don't really tell the tale To me, that's why he's more valuable than IT and why the Celtics would be better with Irving in his place.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Kyrie league ranking by RPM...

2016-17 #53 (+2.05)
2015-16 #186 (-0.60)
2014-15 #38 (+3.40)
2013-14 #231 (-1.40)

On the plus side: he's young, and coming off probably his best season.
On the minus side: he doesn't have a great track record of durability.

Overall: I'd guess he's one of the players in the league whose reputation most exceeds his actual effect on the court. He's got a an aesthetically pleasing, ESPN-friendly game, sweet jumpshot, amazing handles, etc., all of which he's been able to show off on the biggest stage. But to date, he has yet to translate those attributes into consistently winning basketball.

Superficially he's a poor man's Curry in terms of his crazy shotmaking ability (though Steph's .616 to .561 career edge in true shooting % is pretty significant) but I think he lacks a lot of the more subtle things Curry does really well: moving the ball unselfishly, moving off-ball, setting great screens for his teammates, putting in consistent effort on D and on the glass, e.g.

If I were the Cavs GM, he'd be pretty high on my list of guys I'd be open to trading, precisely because his perceived value so outstrips his actual production. I'd guesstimate he's one of the top 10-15 commodities in the league right now, and he really shouldn't be. If they could have kept his trade request quiet, I think they could have got an amazing haul for him, but even with that request now public, I think a smart GM could orchestrate a pretty great trade for him.

Basically, as a Ws fan (or if you're a Cs fan), I'm not celebrating the Cavs' demise just yet, entertaining as this Summer has been so far. :)
 
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bowiac

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In defense of Kyrie, I'll note that he does grade significantly better defensively in the playoffs, which is consistent with the "lack-of-effort" explanation. That's not an excuse, but it does probably make him more valuable for a team like the Celtics that is searching for a higher gear in the playoffs.
 

Ed Hillel

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Woj writing on espn.com says James really shouldn't complain, Irving is simply following the blueprint James follows. If James is unwilling to commit to Cleveland, why should he? Use leverage when you have it.
The problem for Irving is he's cost-controlled (at 19 mil lolNBA) the next three seasons. He has basically no leverage right now, unless he plans to sabotage the season.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The problem for Irving is he's cost-controlled (at 19 mil lolNBA) the next three seasons. He has basically no leverage right now, unless he plans to sabotage the season.
He is only cost controlled for two years. The third year is a player option and he will likely opt out.
 

mcpickl

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Man, lebron is kind of screwed if winning titles are primary goal. He's got maybe three years left of Prime dominance. I'm not sure I see a scenario where he can find a team that can beat GSW. Certainly not in a trade or w Cleveland ex kyrie. Unless he signs for way under value w the LAC?
San Antonio would be the spot. Popovich, Lebron, Kawhi and whatever ten dudes they scrape up would be the second best team in the league.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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I don't think LeBron owes Gilbert anything. Gilbert is a terrible owner.

I do think that LeBron is at all times looking out for LeBron above all things, and his teammates aren't a priority to him. LeBron doesn't just "use his leverage to get a good team" he uses his leverage to ensure that the players and coaching staff are precisely the players and coaching staff LEBRON wants.

Do we think Kyrie had any say in Tyronn Lue replacing David Blatt?

Do we think Kyrie (or any of LeBron's teammates) were thrilled that he forced the front office into giving Tristan Thompson an above market deal as an RFA that now has tax crippled them just because Tristan was a Klutch Sports client?

How about wasting roster space and money on James Jones instead of a younger player who could actually play?

I applaud LeBron's strategy of keeping owners on their toes by never signing long term deals. I also think that he's probably pretty unbearable to deal with as a teammate.

It's unclear if Kyrie really wants to be "the man" or if what he wants is to be in the room. In Miami, LeBron was "the man" but Wade had substantial pull, Bosh to an extent too, and LeBron included them, they were a group. In Cleveland, whether personality, age difference whatever, LeBron pushes ownership and the front office to do what he wants and Kyrie isn't even consulted. When the team struggles, LeBron starts making passive aggressive comments about his teammates, or coaches. Like most superstars, he's an asshole (MJ, Bird, Kobe, Shaq) and it wears on people.
Why does Kyrie deserve say in Lue's hiring? He was -- at the time -- a 23 year old who had led a couple of 19 win teams. LeBron's arguably the best player of all time. There are very few players in the NBA who earn the right to have input on coaching and personnel decisions. LeBron is one of them. Kyrie's not.

As for Thompson, that's another example of your bias being revealed. It was all the rage back when that deal was signed to blame it on GM LeBron and laugh at how big it was. Of course, the next year the cap jumped by 40% -- something the entire league saw coming -- and Thompson's "above market", "tax crippling" deal that was a favor to Klutch sports or whatever is now the 61st largest contract in the NBA. He's paid less than Greg Monroe, Enes Kanter, and Ryan Anderson. He's the 18th highest paid big man in the league. Oh, and he was a key part of their championship, he's a perfect big for the modern NBA, and is really, really good. The Cavs do not beat Golden State without Thompson's rare ability to corral guards in the pick and roll and protect the rim and rebound.

Which means that LeBron's worst issue as a "GM" is that he brought along his friend, James Jones, who is uniformly regarded as one of the best guys in the NBA. And if he'd kept open that roster spot, they'd have had a different 11th guy off the bench.
 

Cellar-Door

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Why does Kyrie deserve say in Lue's hiring? He was -- at the time -- a 23 year old who had led a couple of 19 win teams. LeBron's arguably the best player of all time. There are very few players in the NBA who earn the right to have input on coaching and personnel decisions. LeBron is one of them. Kyrie's not.

As for Thompson, that's another example of your bias being revealed. It was all the rage back when that deal was signed to blame it on GM LeBron and laugh at how big it was. Of course, the next year the cap jumped by 40% -- something the entire league saw coming -- and Thompson's "above market", "tax crippling" deal that was a favor to Klutch sports or whatever is now the 61st largest contract in the NBA. He's paid less than Greg Monroe, Enes Kanter, and Ryan Anderson. He's the 18th highest paid big man in the league. Oh, and he was a key part of their championship, he's a perfect big for the modern NBA, and is really, really good. The Cavs do not beat Golden State without Thompson's rare ability to corral guards in the pick and roll and protect the rim and rebound.

Which means that LeBron's worst issue as a "GM" is that he brought along his friend, James Jones, who is uniformly regarded as one of the best guys in the NBA. And if he'd kept open that roster spot, they'd have had a different 11th guy off the bench.
The Thompson deal is a disaster for CLE, he's basically unplayable against the only team that matters now (yes it was tough to predict that KD would go there, but the decline of the big who can't stretch or hit FTs was clear by then) and he's making 18+M, and on a team that has 3 max guys. Sure maybe another team wouldn't find that salary bad (though honestly it's not a positive contract, and with teams suddenly cap tight again this year and traditional bigs not getting cash it probably takes an asset to dump it).

Beyond that.... just because the cap goes up doesn't make it a good deal, he was an RFA and they paid him more than any team even considered offering him on an offer sheet. If they had let him shop and signed him for less they would have had considerably more flexibility to stay under the tax and still add talent.

As to the Lue thing, whether he deserves it is beside the point, Kyrie thought he should. He was coming off All-NBA, back to back All-Star appearances. Kyrie thinks, and many people agree that he's an All-NBA type player, those guys get a heads up when things are happening. They may not get a say, but they get consulted.

It seems clear that Kyrie got sick of having everything be about LeBron, especially when LeBron didn't clue him in as his All-Star teammate (earlier Kevin Love had a similar issue). Now, you clearly think that he should just be satisfied to let LeBron make the decisions for the franchise, but he clearly isn't and it's not a totally unreasonable thing for a guy entering his prime to feel about an aging guy who might not be around for the cleanup.

Now, if the Cavs had a better offseason, or there were less great teams coming up in the West maybe he sticks it out another year and sees what happens with LeBron. As is, he probably looks at this team, doesn't see a real shot they win the title and wants out before it's too late.
 

Kliq

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I think the point is that Cleveland has made numerous win now moves, from the Thompson and Smith contracts, to the numerous trading of draft picks, with the idea that the have to maximize their ability during LeBron's window. Whether or not LeBron had a role in making those moves or they were just done because management want to surround LeBron with talent and to make sure he is comfortable is largely irrelevant. LeBron's presence shifted Cleveland into an all-out, think about the short term philosophy. Kyrie now hears that James is going to leave after this year and he is going to leave Kyrie and Cleveland with expensive, veteran contracts and few draft picks; and that frustrates him. I'm not saying that is 100 percent what is motivating Irving right now, but I think it's logical that it is pissing him off.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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And the Cavs won Cleveland's first championship in 60 years by making win now moves.

When you have LeBron James, you try to win. That the standard for this team seems to have been that they had to win multiple championships AND set themselves up well for the future is crazy.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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The Thompson deal is a disaster for CLE, he's basically unplayable against the only team that matters now (yes it was tough to predict that KD would go there, but the decline of the big who can't stretch or hit FTs was clear by then) and he's making 18+M, and on a team that has 3 max guys. Sure maybe another team wouldn't find that salary bad (though honestly it's not a positive contract, and with teams suddenly cap tight again this year and traditional bigs not getting cash it probably takes an asset to dump it).

Beyond that.... just because the cap goes up doesn't make it a good deal, he was an RFA and they paid him more than any team even considered offering him on an offer sheet. If they had let him shop and signed him for less they would have had considerably more flexibility to stay under the tax and still add talent.

As to the Lue thing, whether he deserves it is beside the point, Kyrie thought he should. He was coming off All-NBA, back to back All-Star appearances. Kyrie thinks, and many people agree that he's an All-NBA type player, those guys get a heads up when things are happening. They may not get a say, but they get consulted.

It seems clear that Kyrie got sick of having everything be about LeBron, especially when LeBron didn't clue him in as his All-Star teammate (earlier Kevin Love had a similar issue). Now, you clearly think that he should just be satisfied to let LeBron make the decisions for the franchise, but he clearly isn't and it's not a totally unreasonable thing for a guy entering his prime to feel about an aging guy who might not be around for the cleanup.

Now, if the Cavs had a better offseason, or there were less great teams coming up in the West maybe he sticks it out another year and sees what happens with LeBron. As is, he probably looks at this team, doesn't see a real shot they win the title and wants out before it's too late.
We're just not going to agree on the Thompson deal. I think you're wrong on both your interpretation of his game and contract value. Not really worth a discussion given how far apart we are on that.

But that aside, I think you're holding the Cavs, and Thompson's game, to an absurd standard. He was a key member of their championship and is not on an above market deal. You can look at his contract in isolation all you want, but if they don't sign Thompson how do they replace his minutes? You yourself point out the cap issues created by James/Love/Irving. So what do they do to replace Thompson's minutes and contributions? Mid-level guy?

No offense man, but you're being ridiculous here. You're insisting that the Cavs should have been able to have their cake and eat it too, and not only insisting that a totally fine contract is a disaster (based on a single series against a historically great team) but you're also laying all the blame for that contract at the feet of LeBron. It's silly. Your argument for LeBron as the worst guy to play with in the league is that it's his fault the Cavs didn't save 4mil a year on Thompson's contract, and imagine the shitty end of the bench player they'd have signed with that money!
 

Kliq

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And the Cavs won Cleveland's first championship in 60 years by making win now moves.

When you have LeBron James, you try to win. That the standard for this team seems to have been that they had to win multiple championships AND set themselves up well for the future is crazy.
It's not sacrificing the future that is the big issue, it is LeBron not being in Cleveland for the long haul and leaving Kyrie and the franchise with nothing while presumably the championship window is still open (even if it is closing).
 

DJnVa

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And the Cavs won Cleveland's first championship in 60 years by making win now moves.

When you have LeBron James, you try to win. That the standard for this team seems to have been that they had to win multiple championships AND set themselves up well for the future is crazy.
I think we understand that. But that doesn't mean that Kyrie, only 25, wants to be a part of it after the window closes.
 

Cellar-Door

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We're just not going to agree on the Thompson deal. I think you're wrong on both your interpretation of his game and contract value. Not really worth a discussion given how far apart we are on that.

But that aside, I think you're holding the Cavs, and Thompson's game, to an absurd standard. He was a key member of their championship and is not on an above market deal. You can look at his contract in isolation all you want, but if they don't sign Thompson how do they replace his minutes? You yourself point out the cap issues created by James/Love/Irving. So what do they do to replace Thompson's minutes and contributions? Mid-level guy?

No offense man, but you're being ridiculous here. You're insisting that the Cavs should have been able to have their cake and eat it too, and not only insisting that a totally fine contract is a disaster (based on a single series against a historically great team) but you're also laying all the blame for that contract at the feet of LeBron. It's silly. Your argument for LeBron as the worst guy to play with in the league is that it's his fault the Cavs didn't save 4mil a year on Thompson's contract, and imagine the shitty end of the bench player they'd have signed with that money!
You're keying in on a very small part of the overall picture. Those were just minor examples of the bigger issue Kyrie has... LeBron is out for LeBron, and if Kyrie wants to be out for Kyrie he has to make sure he doesn't get stuck holding the bag when LeBron leaves. LeBron is difficult to be in a franchise with because unless you're part of his inner circle, he's going to expect you to cater to him completely. Now guys will do that for a while if it looks like there's a title in it for you, but once there's any doubt, any young All-Star caliber player is likely going to start pushing for more control or a move.
It's amusing to me that LeBron immediately leaks that he's "disappointed", "shocked" etc. to Windhorst, because Kyrie is following the LeBron playbook to a T. LeBron isn't consulting Kyrie about his camp leaking that he's thinking about LAL. If anything, the only way it would be more LeBron is if he started making cryptic Instagram posts that could be interpreted as taking shots at his teammates.
 

sezwho

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I think we understand that. But that doesn't mean that Kyrie, only 25, wants to be a part of it after the window closes.
And it can't be said enough here that Lebron closed that window himself by not committing to his own purpose built team in Cleveland.

He has gotten by with the King Of The World act, and rightfully so, but ruffled a lot of feathers and shown no loyalty along the way. Lets not forget bailing on first Cleveland then Wade with no heads up (which couldn't have happened to a bigger asshole, but still) on his move from Miami.

Kyrie can expect the 'its a business' line from Bron-Bron, just like Love, but since King Bron no longer brings a ring with him wherever he goes he could find his court emptying rapidly.
 

nighthob

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Kyrie can expect the 'its a business' line from Bron-Bron, just like Love, but since King Bron no longer brings a ring with him wherever he goes he could find his court emptying rapidly.
No single player ever brings a ring with them wherever they go. However he does still bring title contention with him wherever he goes.

Irving, by not letting the Cavs know his intentions sooner has screwed them (because a few weeks ago Irving for George would have been a no brainer, which would have made a Love deal a little easier), but it could still work out well for them because he doesn't have a no trade clause and despite his demands most teams will be willing to take a risk on having Irving for two years.

And there are going to be bunch of teams out there interested, so they're still going to get a good return. But the question is what direction the franchise is going, if they've decided that the party's over, there very well could be a yard sale on Irving and Love so as to convince James to waive his NTC to help out the team. It's going to be interesting for sure.
 

the moops

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Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, Paul, Leonard, Westbrook, Butler, Davis, Cousins, Wall, Lillard, Giannis, McCollum.

I could keep going and that is 14 right there without much thought. Why do people like Kyrie so much? Is it all the fancy scoring and dribbling?
You could keep going, but you probably should stop, because of that 14 you listed, you would see many people have arguments over at least a few of them.
 

jon abbey

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As a side note, its worth repeating that the NBA is in such a sweet spot right now.
I beg you to stop telling us this every few weeks, you said it all season, endlessly, and then the playoffs were absolute dogshit (I'd also argue that the regular season was way more boring than you thought, since the end was inevitable, but people can differ on that). You're super into the NBA right now, great. Personally the NBA has been my favorite league/sport since I was a kid, and I'd argue that the meaninglessness of most of the regular season (especially in the East the last few years) and the inevitability of the two Finalists (especially this past season) makes it in a way the dullest it's been in a while (despite having tons of exciting young players), but there's no need for me to say that except to counter this macro statement you keep making.

This isn't meant to be nearly as hostile as it might come off, it's a post I almost made 20 times this season but decided to let it play out. It's an attempt to be preemptive going into next season.
 

sezwho

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No single player ever brings a ring with them wherever they go. However he does still bring title contention with him wherever he goes.
I get your point that no man is an island, but Lebron pretty much did exactly that when his Decision(s) moved the center of the NBA universe to Miami then back to Cleveland. Now it bends inexorably to Oakland and lots of places have title contention, if that means losing to a healthy Warriors team or maybe beating them if they are broken enough.

The worm has turned for Lebron unless he pushes for a Horford plus picks trade to the Celtics (which works by the way). He would then shift the balance of power close to even, in my opinion.

Dumping Al would be bad PR of course, and perhaps even a betrayal on some level, but rings are rings and the NBA world would come around. For those who think much of Al Horford's contributions are hard to quantify, it would be ironic if his biggest contribution to the Celtics next championship never appeared on a scoreboard.
 

jon abbey

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And for the record, I think if the NBA would just bite the bullet and take the top 16 teams into the playoffs and seed them 1-16 (they've said they're not doing this yet but they may in the future), the league would instantly move a large step or two towards DeJesus' Utopia.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think this LeBron getting traded stuff is silly talk. All Cleveland needs to do is swap out Kyrie for other good players and they're right back to being the best team in the EC. I do agree that the timing sucks for them. They may have been able to trade Kyrie for George and Love for, say, Bledsoe and others. However, LeBron/Love/Tristan/whatever Kyrie brings is still the best team in the East by a decent margin.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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You're keying in on a very small part of the overall picture. Those were just minor examples of the bigger issue Kyrie has... LeBron is out for LeBron, and if Kyrie wants to be out for Kyrie he has to make sure he doesn't get stuck holding the bag when LeBron leaves. LeBron is difficult to be in a franchise with because unless you're part of his inner circle, he's going to expect you to cater to him completely. Now guys will do that for a while if it looks like there's a title in it for you, but once there's any doubt, any young All-Star caliber player is likely going to start pushing for more control or a move.
It's amusing to me that LeBron immediately leaks that he's "disappointed", "shocked" etc. to Windhorst, because Kyrie is following the LeBron playbook to a T. LeBron isn't consulting Kyrie about his camp leaking that he's thinking about LAL. If anything, the only way it would be more LeBron is if he started making cryptic Instagram posts that could be interpreted as taking shots at his teammates.
I'm focused on those examples because those are the examples you provided. I don't disagree at all that LeBron is out for LeBron -- I'm saying that LeBron should be out for LeBron, and that as a franchise, the Cavs should be as well. They should be looking to win right now, at all costs, because there may never be a time as a franchise where the odds of another championship will be higher. That means you shop Kevin Love if you think it improves the team. It means you re-sign JR Smith even though he has you over a barrel from a negotiating standpoint. It means you trade a pick for Kyle Korver. And if, in that process, you alienate your 25 year old PG, so be it.

To be clear, I have no issue with Kyrie wanting out. Of course he doesn't want to be there when LeBron leaves town. I'm sure Kevin Love doesn't either. But I disagree completely with this:

Everything else about being in the same franchise as LeBron sounds awful. Especially with the way his business interests in Klutch sports and leveraging his constant threats to opt out and leave into signings of the guys he wants.
LeBron may be a dream on-court, but overall he's maybe the single most high maintenance, passive aggressive pain in the ass in the entire league.
And the reason I disagree with it is because I don't understand, even a little bit, what the alternative should have been. You seem to feel that LeBron should have committed to Cleveland long-term, and take issue with his one and two year deals -- but in practice, what would signing a longterm deal have changed? It would mean only that Love, Irving, etc. were in a more stable place. But it wouldn't in any way improve the Cavs chances of winning. It wouldn't suddenly resolve their cap issues (nor would 4 million in annual savings on Thompson, or even not re-signing Smith at all). It would just lock them into second place for longer. LeBron's short contracts are a feature not a bug, and that's just as true for Irving as it is for LeBron.
 

nighthob

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The worm has turned for Lebron unless he pushes for a Horford plus picks trade to the Celtics (which works by the way). He would then shift the balance of power close to even, in my opinion.

Dumping Al would be bad PR of course, and perhaps even a betrayal on some level, but rings are rings and the NBA world would come around. For those who think much of Al Horford's contributions are hard to quantify, it would be ironic if his biggest contribution to the Celtics next championship never appeared on a scoreboard.
LeBron wouldn't request that trade, in fact, it would be the opposite. He'd want Horford here if he was going to come. And Boston would not send Horford into a rebuilding situation because that would burn bridges unnecessarily.

I do agree that joining forces with Horford and Hayward would put him in a prime position to give the Warriors a real run for their money (that front line would give the Warriors fits). But that's a move that's six months in the future if at all.
 

sezwho

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I think this LeBron getting traded stuff is silly talk. All Cleveland needs to do is swap out Kyrie for other good players and they're right back to being the best team in the EC. I do agree that the timing sucks for them. They may have been able to trade Kyrie for George and Love for, say, Bledsoe and others. However, LeBron/Love/Tristan/whatever Kyrie brings is still the best team in the East by a decent margin.
I'm going with surreal slightly edging out silly but you could be right. I'm also still going with Lebron being unwilling to 'waste' a year (defined as any time he doesn't feel like he will win it all). He needed the Cavs to get better this offseason, preferably much better, and they trading an NBA quarter for three nickels and a dime rarely works out. 25 year old stud PGs are hard to come by and equal value would be a surprise.

I definitely don't agree with the bolded and would pick the Cs over that team unless Kyrie's return were awesome and ready to hit the ground running. Maybe I'm both overrating the Celtics and Kyrie (not trying to put words in your mouth here BSF) but it seems like folks forget Kyrie was the second best player on a Championship team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Basketball is great because we can watch the same game and have such wildly different opinions about whos good and whats going on. Here is an oh what the hell sporcle style list of players I think are obviously better than Irving, even before appealing to fancy stats.

Lebron, Curry, Durant, Harden, Paul, Leonard, Westbrook, Butler, Davis, Cousins, Wall, Lillard, Giannis, McCollum.

I could keep going and that is 14 right there without much thought. Why do people like Kyrie so much? Is it all the fancy scoring and dribbling?
Kyrie is arguably the best below the rim finisher the game has ever seen while being in the conversation for having the best handle the game has ever seen. We've seen him utilize each of those skills to singlehandedly win multiple playoff games while making LeBron an afterthought in them. There are few players who can have the ball in their hands and be a better option than LeBron in playoff games.....Kyrie has been one of them.

His only real flaw is his motor, which affects him defensively during the regular season (his playoff defense is fine) and durability however on a team with championship aspirations like the Cavs those regular season games are simply exhibitions until the games that count begin.

The Cavs will receive a boatload in return for him as I feel he's much more highly thought of in the leagues inner circles than he is on opponents message boards.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm going with surreal slightly edging out silly but you could be right. I'm also still going with Lebron being unwilling to 'waste' a year (defined as any time he doesn't feel like he will win it all). He needed the Cavs to get better this offseason, preferably much better, and they trading an NBA quarter for three nickels and a dime rarely works out. 25 year old stud PGs are hard to come by and equal value would be a surprise.

I definitely don't agree with the bolded and would pick the Cs over that team unless Kyrie's return were awesome and ready to hit the ground running. Maybe I'm both overrating the Celtics and Kyrie (not trying to put words in your mouth here BSF) but it seems like folks forget Kyrie was the second best player on a Championship team.
I think Kyrie will bring back a pretty good return since he has 2 years of control left and the Celtics are certainly better on paper than they were last year but we still have no idea how much better they really are, particularly if Isaiah's injury reduces some of his effectiveness. Zizic, Tatum, Yabusele, and Brown are all green (no pun intended).

I don't think the gap will be as big next year as it was this year but I, nevertheless, still expect a decent gap. We'll obviously know more once this situation is resolved.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm focused on those examples because those are the examples you provided. I don't disagree at all that LeBron is out for LeBron -- I'm saying that LeBron should be out for LeBron, and that as a franchise, the Cavs should be as well. They should be looking to win right now, at all costs, because there may never be a time as a franchise where the odds of another championship will be higher. That means you shop Kevin Love if you think it improves the team. It means you re-sign JR Smith even though he has you over a barrel from a negotiating standpoint. It means you trade a pick for Kyle Korver. And if, in that process, you alienate your 25 year old PG, so be it.

To be clear, I have no issue with Kyrie wanting out. Of course he doesn't want to be there when LeBron leaves town. I'm sure Kevin Love doesn't either. But I disagree completely with this:



And the reason I disagree with it is because I don't understand, even a little bit, what the alternative should have been. You seem to feel that LeBron should have committed to Cleveland long-term, and take issue with his one and two year deals -- but in practice, what would signing a longterm deal have changed? It would mean only that Love, Irving, etc. were in a more stable place. But it wouldn't in any way improve the Cavs chances of winning. It wouldn't suddenly resolve their cap issues (nor would 4 million in annual savings on Thompson, or even not re-signing Smith at all). It would just lock them into second place for longer. LeBron's short contracts are a feature not a bug, and that's just as true for Irving as it is for LeBron.
See, I think you're arguing past me here. I'm not saying either LeBron or the Cavs necessarily shouldn't have done the things they did. I'm,saying that those things make for an incredibly frustrating position for a teammate like Kyrie, and is why LeBron is a difficult guy to be teammates with long-term.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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See, I think you're arguing past me here. I'm not saying either LeBron or the Cavs necessarily shouldn't have done the things they did. I'm,saying that those things make for an incredibly frustrating position for a teammate like Kyrie, and is why LeBron is a difficult guy to be teammates with long-term.
Maybe so. But they also come with three -- perhaps 4 -- straight finals appearances and a championship. Ultimately "those things" that make LeBron a difficult guy to be teammates with are the things that are necessary to remain a championship caliber team.

I mean, it's pretty telling that Kyrie supposedly expressed jealousy over Damian Lillard and John Wall's roles as centerpieces of their respective franchises; neither of those guys have ever advanced past the second round of the playoffs. Do you think Wall and Lillard would give up the control they currently have to have a championship and three finals appearances? I bet they would, which is why I think your critique of sharing a franchise with LeBron's overstated.
 

CreedBratton

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All I know is the things I saw Kyrie do in the finals against that warriors team was insane. Some of those shots and finishes were out of this world. Amazing. I'd give up a lot for him but the cavs are extremely limited until dec 15 when guys signed this year can start getting traded.
 

moly99

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All I know is the things I saw Kyrie do in the finals against that warriors team was insane. Some of those shots and finishes were out of this world. Amazing. I'd give up a lot for him but the cavs are extremely limited until dec 15 when guys signed this year can start getting traded.
These sorts of players tend to be most overrated in the NBA, since the best players are the ones who make the game look easy. Kevin Durant is a relatively effortless scorer that simply shoots over smaller dudes and beats larger dudes off the dribble. He creates lots of "boring" layups and threes.

Kyrie is a great natural scorer and can make circus shots with two guys in his face. But he does not do enough of the ordinary things to make him a top 5 (and maybe even a top 10) point guard. There is a reason hero ball is dying in the NBA.
 

JakeRae

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Anyone who thinks adding Lebron to the Celtics (in any manner that works under the cap) creates a team that can seriously challenge the Warriors is delusional. The Celtics are currently inferior to the Warriors at every position and most by a significant margin. They are a really good team but the Warriors are probably the best collection of talent the sport has ever seen. Adding Lebron and, say, losing Horford puts this team in maybe a slightly better position to last year's Cavs, in other words, still not close to good enough without a Warriors injury.

Nobody is talking about this, but Houston is the best positioned team to pitch Lebron on having a real shot against the Warriors. They could repeat what they did to land Paul next off-season and add Lebron for Anderson, another contract, and enough picks to make it worth it to Cleveland to take on Anderson's contract. Lebron, Paul, and Harden would give them a true big 3 that might hope to be able to compete with the Warriors. It's a little hard to see how those three fit together, but the talent is undeniable.
 

BigSoxFan

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Anyone who thinks adding Lebron to the Celtics (in any manner that works under the cap) creates a team that can seriously challenge the Warriors is delusional. The Celtics are currently inferior to the Warriors at every position and most by a significant margin. They are a really good team but the Warriors are probably the best collection of talent the sport has ever seen. Adding Lebron and, say, losing Horford puts this team in maybe a slightly better position to last year's Cavs, in other words, still not close to good enough without a Warriors injury.

Nobody is talking about this, but Houston is the best positioned team to pitch Lebron on having a real shot against the Warriors. They could repeat what they did to land Paul next off-season and add Lebron for Anderson, another contract, and enough picks to make it worth it to Cleveland to take on Anderson's contract. Lebron, Paul, and Harden would give them a true big 3 that might hope to be able to compete with the Warriors. It's a little hard to see how those three fit together, but the talent is undeniable.
Ryan Anderson and crappy picks starting in 2020 for LeBron? Now that's some real delusion.
 

Devizier

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Lebron isn't getting traded. Even if the Cavaliers were interested, he has a no-trade clause and contenders are capped out, meaning that any trade for Lebron requires serious talent going the other way. Irving, on the other hand; the Cavaliers could theoretically improve with a trade to a few teams. They could have even had a match with one of his preferred teams -- Minnesota -- if the Wolves had held off on trading Rubio.
 

BigSoxFan

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Lebron isn't getting traded. Even if the Cavaliers were interested, he has a no-trade clause and contenders are capped out, meaning that any trade for Lebron requires serious talent going the other way. Irving, on the other hand; the Cavaliers could theoretically improve with a trade to a few teams. They could have even had a match with one of his preferred teams -- Minnesota -- if the Wolves had held off on trading Rubio.
LeBron for Draymond/Klay works :)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Mo Speights to Orlando for the minimum? Wow. At this rate I think every contract signed is going to be a huge discount
Derrick Rose may even sign a minimum deal with Cleveland. Boy, when the money dries up the money really dries up.
 

sezwho

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Anyone who thinks adding Lebron to the Celtics (in any manner that works under the cap) creates a team that can seriously challenge the Warriors is delusional. The Celtics are currently inferior to the Warriors at every position and most by a significant margin. They are a really good team but the Warriors are probably the best collection of talent the sport has ever seen. Adding Lebron and, say, losing Horford puts this team in maybe a slightly better position to last year's Cavs.
Guess I'll just enjoy my delusion then.

Taking last years conference finals Celtics team and adding Hayward, Lebron, healthy IT, more mature JB, plus whatever Tatum can offer, and losing Horford (in my theoretical Al
Plus picks trade for Bron) moves the Cs into contention. Not favorites but real threat.

Feel free to throw in the towel though, it's almost August.
 

smastroyin

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The key to the LeBron Celtics and their chances against the Warriors would be how well Stevens could use him off the ball. It's interesting to think about. Without Horford I agree they would not be that close to the Warriors. But if you could manage to keep Horford, even if you lose IT you can run out a lineup of Horford-James-Crowder-Hayward-Smart which I think would be a Stevens wet dream in terms of creating ball movement and matchups. I mean, the bigger delusion than the Celtics competing with the Warriors is having James join the Celtics, so all of this is an exercise in hypotheticals and dreaming anyway.

I'm all for the Magic and Knicks to improve as much as they can, for obvious reasons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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With owners seemingly wising up and money drying up for non max players, is it possible we may actually see the max contract eliminated? Seems a lot of teams are building around giving 2-3 guys max deals and filling the rest of the roster out with guys on their rookie deals and vet minimums.

I hate the max contract.