2017 Patriots Defense
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And Branch, who's fallen of a cliff. Collins has been awful, so he wasn't the answer at 13 million a year. Hightower just looks hobbled and afraid of contact, but that has to be a long-term concern given age and history.
I think a solid case can be made for having re-signed Ryan and keeping the savings over Gilmore, but let's not forget two years ago that Ryan was considered awful around here, too. Also, I haven't watched, but Tennessee's defense isn't exactly stellar. Not sure if Ryan's played a part.
Agreed. It sounds so douchey to say that about a guy, but I think it's true. Which made me think - for every Hogan and Gillislee that you snatch away from a bad team, there are the other players that make up the elements of what constitutes poor play and poor results for that team. AKA, the guys that actually suck and thus contribute to what makes their teams suck. Gilmore's starting to feel like that player that wasn't "good talent surrounded by bad talent," but the actual bad talent that lessened the potential of good talent.
I'm not saying that definitively. I don't have a crystal ball. He could end up All-Pro through the rest of the year. But after four weeks it sure seems like he's the kind of guy that helped make the Bills the Bills over the last few years, and the FO made a mistake in signing him.
It just sucks that there's so much guaranteed money in his deal. I mean, there's really nothing we can do but try to make it work. It's kind of an unfamiliar position for this team.
So they lost Logan Ryan and now the defense is shit? I don’t buy it - clearly have the talent and have just played awful. Clean it up, work on communication and figure it out. You’d think they brought in a whole new defense reading this thread - they didn’t and we know they can get it done.
"New players" is not the issue. They integrate new players all the time.
They would be better off promoting someone from the practice squad with marginal physical talent who understood who he was supposed to be covering play-to-play than what they got today.
I refuse to believe things will remain this bad and chose to take comfort in a small sample size.
But if I'm wrong, the Gilmore signing was a catastrophe with a tail of several years that this year at least renders the team non-competitive in one of Brady's last years.
And the sad part will be that it was so uncharacteristic of how this team does business. With Adalius Thomas, at least, there was a genuine need. And BB certainly was not the only guy hoodwinked by a guy whose star shined brighter because he played next to Ray Lewis.
If Gilmore does not get squared away, this will be a massive self inflicted wound.
But if I'm wrong, the Gilmore signing was a catastrophe with a tail of several years that this year at least renders the team non-competitive in one of Brady's last years.
And the sad part will be that it was so uncharacteristic of how this team does business. With Adalius Thomas, at least, there was a genuine need. And BB certainly was not the only guy hoodwinked by a guy whose star shined brighter because he played next to Ray Lewis.
If Gilmore does not get squared away, this will be a massive self inflicted wound.
Has Gilmore made the pass rush bad, Alan Branch disappear, the linebacker play awful, Rowe tackle like a child, Chung and McCourty lose one on one battles, and Butler get burned repeatedly? There are a lot of issues that go beyond Gilmore.
Butler's been a bigger disappointment to me than Gilmore. Even that INT was a gigantic bit of luck, he left his man wide open.
Butler's been a bigger disappointment to me than Gilmore. Even that INT was a gigantic bit of luck, he left his man wide open.
The last time the Patriots had a defense this bad was at the battle of Charleston in 1780.
They are as bad as bad gets right now. We all play the W, L, W, W, L game when we look at the schedule and I guarantee you no sane Patriots fan had then at 2-2 after 4 games, yet here we are.
With Atlanta, Denver, Oakland and Pittsburg still looming on the horizon, this needs to get fixed asap.
Not sure you can fix stupid, which is the biggest problem with the defense.
They are as bad as bad gets right now. We all play the W, L, W, W, L game when we look at the schedule and I guarantee you no sane Patriots fan had then at 2-2 after 4 games, yet here we are.
With Atlanta, Denver, Oakland and Pittsburg still looming on the horizon, this needs to get fixed asap.
Not sure you can fix stupid, which is the biggest problem with the defense.
Yeah, agreed. Gilmore made the glaring error today. He hasn't been good, and the contract puts a glaring target on him. But its been pretty much hot garbage everywhere for a month. Replace Gilmore with an in his prime Revis and this would still have been a bad defense. 29 for 140 against on the ground today and they continue to have no idea how to defend any sort of option or misdirection plays.
When guys are wide open because he's missing assignments, then yes he is making guys worse. The front 7 needs time to get to the QB, at the end of the half Cam was able to just drop back and throw immediately to any one of the wide open receivers.
I will say, the defense started out pretty strong and then ended... not terrible. There's some good there, it's just not been enough or consistently.
They are two Jonathan Jones plays away from having given up at least 33 in every game. The Saints game looks like the aberration now.
Ryan, Sheard, Long, and Nink. Replaced by Gilmore, Guy, Butler, and Wise. Everyone else is the same (Flowers, Brown, Branch, Hightower, Van Noy, M Butler, McCourty, Harmon, Rowe, and Chung).
There's no freaking way that those four replacements turn the #1 scoring defense in the NFL into the worst defense of all time.
There's more going on here. I don't know whether that makes me optimistic or pessimistic that they can fix things.
I haven't had the availability to study every game, but I have watched them all. My takeaway about this defense is that all the bad starts with the fact that they can't stop the run. Too many 8, 9, 12, 14 yards runs. It means that they can't really set up "passing situations" because even 3rd and 8 is a makeable rushing first down.
It seems like the front 7 is having a lot of trouble maintaining any sort of gap discipline, including edge-settjng.
Do Your Job is not just a pithy bumper sticker; it's a key element to the success of this defensive scheme. In my mind, the emphasis in those three words is on YOUR not DO. If everyone does HIS job, and trusts the other guys to do theirs, there is less to worry about, less to try to cover for, less heroic play. Fill these gaps, and someone else will make the tackle. Go for the tackle instead and end up leaving a huge hole.
It seems like the front 7 is having a lot of trouble maintaining any sort of gap discipline, including edge-settjng.
Do Your Job is not just a pithy bumper sticker; it's a key element to the success of this defensive scheme. In my mind, the emphasis in those three words is on YOUR not DO. If everyone does HIS job, and trusts the other guys to do theirs, there is less to worry about, less to try to cover for, less heroic play. Fill these gaps, and someone else will make the tackle. Go for the tackle instead and end up leaving a huge hole.
The team has made a huge deal out of how important Hightower has been over the past couple of years setting the defense, and he has not been out there in that role since he went down early in the KC game. Having High back in his customary role may help.
Hightower misses games every year and they don't have these kinds of breakdowns. Moreover, I don't think Hightower has much to do with the secondary assignments we are seeing bungled.
I think like most things, it's a combination of factors.
One, I'm guessing they miss those three more than you are suggesting. All three were solid, though not spectacular, veteran players who did their jobs within the Pats system
Two, I'm guessing that the lack of Jamie Collins has come home to roost somewhat. They did just fine without him last year but he was still one of their better players on D and losing that eventually takes a toll. I'm not blaming Bill as I don't know how difficult it was to deal with Collins. At the same time, I think it matters.
Three, Gilmore was vastly overpaid and seems to have breakdowns every game. The money is what it is but the play on the field matters. Watching Seattle last night and seeing a team completely go away from Sherman's side of the field made me wonder why the Pats decided to ride Gilmore as that kind of player when he was never all that in Buffalo. He was a good corner, even a very good one. But he was never on the level of Revis or Sherman, and paying him as if he is does not make it so. Logan Ryan was so much better in this D.
Four, Butler is not as good this year and I have to wonder whether his pre-season prep was affected by all of the noise. Whatever the reason, he's not the same guy.
Five, does the loss of Justin Coleman matter? He looked good last night for Seattle.
Six, other than Flowers, they don't have any great players on that D right now. Hightower should be that but he is not making plays and is probably still hurt.
Butler and Rowe were getting torched in man, as has McCourty at times. Gilmore has nothing to do with that. Branch isn't even getting snaps and he's been near Pro-Bowl caliber the past couple years.
Some of this is all us speculating, so I look to Belichick at these times, because he knows what's wrong. Butler's been benched for poor play this season, not Gilmore. Maybe that changes moving forward, we'll see. But I don't instantly buy everything fell apart solely because Gilmore replaced Ryan. There's a lot more bad happening than that.
With the erosion of play by several players from last year, as well as the talk about poor communication and simplifying the playbook, I wonder if there's a broader motivation/attitude issue. Speculation, of course, but going from 2.5 years of white-hot "Us vs. The League and Everyone Else" stuff and not one but two (!) Super Bowl victories over that span to this year where there story lines basically amounted to "Patriots are awesome" must be a bit of a come down for some players. At the very least, it seems like it would be a challenge to the staff and team leaders to keep guys focused.
Communications issues comments from members of the secondary points directly at Gilmore. He's the new guy, he's already had several lapses where he's let a receiver go when he had no backing help. To me that's all on Gilmore. Hell we saw him to that last year in Buffalo (Hogan torches him for a TD when he let him go thinking he had over the top help). And 4 games into the season the issues are as bad as they've ever been in the 18 years Belichick's been here and I strongly suspect Gilmore's too stupid to figure this out.
The defense overall is crap, but Gilmore is the major problem IMO.
Gilmore's the problem here. He's playing poorly, he's not getting the defensive scheme, his comments after the game yesterday indicate he has no intention of changing anything. He's a huge issue. To address points above, it's not unfair to think he's too stupid to fit into this scheme; he has physical talents but not a lick of goddamn football sense. If the play is in front of him he's fine. Any other time he's, to quote Parcells, like a ball in tall grass.
It's a shame he got that idiotic contract because he's cut-worthy at this point.
The defense overall is crap, but Gilmore is the major problem IMO.
You're wrong. Gilmore got benched to start the second half yesterday (reported several times in today's Globe) but Rowe got hurt on the very first play of the second half so Gilmore had to go back in, just in time to play like shit and cost the Pats the game.
Gilmore's the problem here. He's playing poorly, he's not getting the defensive scheme, his comments after the game yesterday indicate he has no intention of changing anything. He's a huge issue. To address points above, it's not unfair to think he's too stupid to fit into this scheme; he has physical talents but not a lick of goddamn football sense. If the play is in front of him he's fine. Any other time he's, to quote Parcells, like a ball in tall grass.
It's a shame he got that idiotic contract because he's cut-worthy at this point.
I wonder what is going on in practice? If the defense is really this terrible (and the offense is as good as it appears to be) the offense should be absolutely torching the defense in practice. I know that information about what goes on at practice is a little hard to come by, but I don't recall any of the members of the Pats media contingent writing about the defense being a dumpster fire during training camp. Also I htink McCourty made some comment yesterday about practicing so hard and then not being able to have that translate into the game.
No, but Van Noy/Roberts do. The Whitaker TD was the clearest example of a communication breakdown combined with a recognition/assignment problem. The problems at the back end are somewhat - a small amount - the fault of the linebackers, and their awful play. Hightower's (and Branch's) problems seem to be physical, not mental.
Gilmore looks awful when asked to deviate from the presnap call. Roberts and Van Noy just look lost. Chung looks to have lost a step, an eye, a leg, and half his brain. Harmon seems to have been told to stay 30 yards downfield in case someone else blows an assignment like the Hill/KC game. I have no idea what is wrong with McCourty, but he hasn't looked this poor since he played himself out of a CB job.
I think Gilmore is probably gonna be inactive on Thursday and it'll be disciplinary but not announced as such. The penalties are just inexcusable and cannot continue. If Rowe is too injured to play, maybe Gilmore gets a reprieve but he's been so bad and there's so much time left on the contract that they almost have to do something drastic or risk seeing him Steve Martin the season.
I know Hightower is being listed as DE now instead of LB, but what's been the difference in his on field role? Maybe moving him back to what he was doing last year is a good start.
That might be Harmon's role now.. When the Pats D was bad in 2011 they just played zone defenses with Nate Dog Jones or Matt Slater playing 20 yards deep so at least the other team couldnt just hit long 70 yard TDs and might self-own somewhere before reaching the end zone.
Chung is also losing snaps. Probably worth noting that he was useless in the schemes the team had to run in 2011-2012.
That might be Harmon's role now.. When the Pats D was bad in 2011 they just played zone defenses with Nate Dog Jones or Matt Slater playing 20 yards deep so at least the other team couldnt just hit long 70 yard TDs and might self-own somewhere before reaching the end zone.
Chung is also losing snaps. Probably worth noting that he was useless in the schemes the team had to run in 2011-2012.
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The Panthers had the Patriots defenders in a tizzy reacting to motion and adjusting to their assignments accordingly. On the Whitaker TD, both McCourty and Gilmore followed McCaffrey. That's not on the linebackers - the play call is already in and communicated at that point - but rather the communication between the specific pass defenders who need to figure out who's got who based on the motion and communicate it. That broke down repeatedly yesterday, and seemed to involve only players in the secondary.
It kind of seems like they want him to be the new Ninkovich; I'm not sure that's a great use of his skills.
The communication thing has been a problem from day one.
There is something going on in that secondary (and even the linebackers) where this is the most I've seen this defense looking lost right up to the ball snapped as I've ever seen.
We are now 4 weeks in, and they still haven't figured it out.
There is something going on in that secondary (and even the linebackers) where this is the most I've seen this defense looking lost right up to the ball snapped as I've ever seen.
We are now 4 weeks in, and they still haven't figured it out.
Agreed, he needs to be in the middle of the field diagnosing plays and reacting. Van Noy is hit or miss and Roberts is too slow even if he hits. I mentioned this earlier this year, but I do wonder if part of the reason he was moved was to protect him from injuries, long-term. Maybe they think the closer to the line of scrimmage, the less impact on his shoulder?
Who didn’t do their job on the Butler INT? The man was doubled while Funchess (might be wrong) was left wide open. Newton forced it anyway but the fact was that someone was trying to be a hero instead of fulfilling their responsibility. Butler left his man but was he supposed to?
Does anyone have a screenshot of what I’m talking about?
Does anyone have a screenshot of what I’m talking about?
I think on the replay they clearly showed Butler leaving his man to run with the receiver running up the sideline who was Rowe's man.
And Gilmore just sat there on the other side of the field, letting it all happen.
Per patscap, looks like $8MM immediately added to this years cap and a $14.4MM cap hit next year. $18MM signing bonus and $13MM of salary this year and next year fully guaranteed. They could cut him after '18 and only eat a $10.2MM dead money charge. Unless he commits first degree murder, he's going to be on the team for the next two years. He may not be on the field, but he's not going anywhere.
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If he was cut before June 1 his dead money would be $22.5 million. If he was traded, the dead money would be $18 million.
Seems like the obvious answer here is a kidnapping and face transplant operation with AJ Bouye.
I like the Gilmore for Logan Ryan deal someone floated in the gamethread yesterday. But that's likely a non-starter
Sure, just need to find the other $5-$8MM or so of other cuts you are going to do to get the cap savings needed to cut him. What are your thoughts on who else to cut?
I guess something like Allen, Branch, Gillislee would probably work as a realistic package of cuts. Of course, then there's little carryover cap space and $16MM of dead money heading into next season, so about $18-$20MM down against the cap vs. where the Pats are in a usual season. But Gilmore would be off the roster.
It's not going to happen, sadly. They paid too much money for a terrible player, so they're stuck with him. I'd love for him to be gone tomorrow, but it won't happen.
If anything, they'll trade Butler during the bye week at the deadline for LB help.
If anything, they'll trade Butler during the bye week at the deadline for LB help.
Doug Kyed pointed out yesterday -- and the beat guys were all over Gilmore, so they've heard something internally -- that the Patriots broke their mold and signed Gilmore w/o him taking a visit with the team.
Adalius Thomas at least contributed his first season here, albeit at a lower level than originally expected.
This is worse. The problem is that defense is not glorified "kill the carrier", but instead is a highly coordinated act among all 11 players on the field, with each player having primary, secondary, and sometimes tertiary assignments. If someone is continually missing their assignments, then other players start missing theirs, and the effects snowball. Combine Gilmore's constantly missing his reads with what I believe may be subpar talent up front on the line, and you have the makings of a disaster.
Not clear this can be fixed in-season.
Louis Riddick and Ryan Clark seemed to think they can get it straightened out ... if there's buy-in from the players. They also suggested that they need one guy quarterbacking the d-backs; isn't McCourty thought to be the leader back there?
Players with four or more seasons have their base salaries guaranteed if they're on a roster Week 1, so cutting those guys isn't saving any money.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/31/refresher-on-the-vested-veteran-guarantee/
I don't know why I even bother to point that out, as no one thinks this can or will happen.
Thinking more on the Ryan-for-Gilmore swap, Ryan's role was always pretty underrated. He was a guy with meh physical tools, but he knew every position in the defense - outside CB, slot, he even got the odd rep at safety. He really helped stabilize the D last year, taking on a role where he played slot in nickel or outside in base, which is pretty tough sledding. Moreover, he came from the same Rutgers system as McCourty and Harmon, and he and Harmon were teammates for three years in college, and they played together professionally for years, so those guys were on the same page.
Not only have they replaced Ryan with Gilmore - who does not appear to know the defense or communicate well with the other DBs - from a roster perspective, it seems they've tried to slide Rowe into Ryan's slot duties and it hasn't paid off. On paper, it makes sense - Rowe is a big, agile guy who played some safety in college - but the slot is one of the most complex positions in NE's D (you basically have to know all the CB and all the LB assignments) and he doesn't seem to be getting it either. His tackling was a problem yesterday, too, which is a no-no inside. So now you have two guys who don't really know what they're doing and aren't on the same page, and McCourty is trying to do way too much to compensate and he's screwing up, too, and now no one trusts anyone and no one can just do their job.
Rowe's injury might be a blessing because he seems to be one of the problems. Fixing the slot CB issue will help both the pass and run D - maybe they put Jonathan Jones in there, or maybe Butler bumps inside in nickel, or maybe it's McCourty or Chung in the slot with the other S (Harmon and Richards I guess) taking on bigger roles. Or maybe they need a PS guy to step up. If they can nail down the slot, then Gilmore a) has a simplified role (outside CB) and b) is the only question mark in terms of communication, and then they can focus on fixing that. That's probably a more realistic recipe than benching the big money man.
My guess is they thought losing Butler this season was a real possibility so they signed Gilmore quickly, based on film and pre-draft evaluation they had of him years ago. Physically, they appear correct. He's not beaten often when he has the coverage down. Mentally, there have obviously been issues. If he doesn't have the mental capacity to pick up their systems, maybe they should just try putting him on an island.