2017 PGA Tour

cshea

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I’m guessing that he’s gonna play the Hero again this year and then go from there. Who knows how long this return attempt lasts.

Also, I’d like to know why the stinger ever went away. That thing was money for him.
 

LogansDad

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I say this every year, but man I would love to see him make a ridiculous comeback. The sport is more fun when he is playing competitively, in my opinion, though I get that not everyone feels that way.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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How much has the sport of golf advanced since Tiger's heyday as far as the field. Seems as though even if he were in his prime, he'd be facing tougher competition than when he was coming up and blowing away the tour. Would his length even put him in the top 25%?
 

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Koko the Monkey
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I’m guessing that he’s gonna play the Hero again this year and then go from there. Who knows how long this return attempt lasts.

Also, I’d like to know why the stinger ever went away. That thing was money for him.
The rest of the field is much longer than in 2002? I think the field is deeper/better overall too but I’m not sure I can’t back that up. Prime Tiger would still be #1 today but I’m not sure he wins quite as much.
 

Vegas Sox Fan

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The rest of the field is much longer than in 2002? I think the field is deeper/better overall too but I’m not sure I can’t back that up. Prime Tiger would still be #1 today but I’m not sure he wins quite as much.
This is an interesting exercise. I grabbed some stats from Tiger's most recent prolific year in 2005 and compared it to some modern players. My first thought was to look at Spieth's breakout in 2015. By results they are quite close. As we know though Spieth is not as long off the tee, but much more accurate. Tiger was surprisingly bad around the greens but was better basically everywhere else.

I also looked at Justin Thomas this year since he's longer off the tee. Tiger was still longer and only slightly less accurate. JT was pretty solid across the board but doesn't really touch what Jordan did in 2015 let alone peak Tiger. My conclusion is it would be close but peak Tiger would probably still be clear #1.

NameYearWins2nd2rdTop 10Top 25Made CutsCutsSG Off TeeSG AproachSG Around GreenSG PuttingSG Tee to GreenSG TotalDriving Dist.Driving Acc.GIR %
Jordan Spieth201554115192140.4940.6180.4710.5711.5832.154291.862.9167.87
Tiger Woods200564213171920.8960.86-0.0150.6591.7422.401316.154.5869.89
Justin Thomas201751012141960.3980.680.2520.2891.331.618309.755.0567.16
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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That's a great comparison, VSF. Also of note that Speith and JT played 20% more tournaments than Tiger for a similar number of wins, 2nds and Top 10s.

I found this website on driving distance. It appears players are much longer than 2002, but much of that was due to a 6.5 yard jump between 2002 to 2003 as a result of players using a larger driver head. From 2003-2015 there wasn't much variation in average driving distance.

[chart]
Year PGA Tour avg. driving distance PGA Tour leader (yards) Players avg. over 300 yards
2015 289.7 Dustin Johnson (317.7) 26
2014 288.8 Bubba Watson (314.3) 25
2013 287.2 Luke List (306.8) 13
2012 289.1 Bubba Watson (315.5) 21
2011 290.9 J.B Holmes (318.4) 21
2010 287.3 Robert Garrigus (315.5) 12
2009 287.3 Robert Garrigus (312) 13
2008 287.3 Bubba Watson (315.1) 13
2007 288.6 Bubba Watson (315.2) 18
2006 288.9 Bubba Watson (319.6) 20
2005 288.4 Scott Hend (318.9) 26
2004 286.5 Hank Kuehne (314.4) 15
2003 285.9 Hank Kuehne (321.4) 8
2002 279.5 John Daly (306.8) 1
2001 278.8 John Daly (306.7) 1
2000 272.8 John Daly (301.4) 1[/chart]
 

FL4WL3SS

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I think tiger still dominates. Yes there's a lot of talent now, but Tiger was the most mentally tough golfer that ever existed. You've never seen him fold like Spieth, Rory, DJ, et al.

Tiger in his prime still dominates in today's environment. People forget how good Duval was and I don't see any of the existing crop duplicating Mickelson's career. Ernie, VJ and even guys like Monty.
 

johnmd20

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I think tiger still dominates. Yes there's a lot of talent now, but Tiger was the most mentally tough golfer that ever existed. You've never seen him fold like Spieth, Rory, DJ, et al.

Tiger in his prime still dominates in today's environment. People forget how good Duval was and I don't see any of the existing crop duplicating Mickelson's career. Ernie, VJ and even guys like Monty.
That Tiger is gone, man. His mental edge weakened in 2009 when he lost to YE Yang in the PGA Championship and was obliterated by his scandal and subsequent injuries. If he can play golf for a month without getting hurt, it would be a huge win for him. The bar is pretty low.
 

FL4WL3SS

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That Tiger is gone, man. His mental edge weakened in 2009 when he lost to YE Yang in the PGA Championship and was obliterated by his scandal and subsequent injuries. If he can play golf for a month without getting hurt, it would be a huge win for him. The bar is pretty low.
No shit, I was talking about if the old Tiger would be as dominant in today's game and the answer is yes.
 

barbed wire Bob

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That Tiger is gone, man. His mental edge weakened in 2009 when he lost to YE Yang in the PGA Championship and was obliterated by his scandal and subsequent injuries. If he can play golf for a month without getting hurt, it would be a huge win for him. The bar is pretty low.
Fwiw, the PGA implemented their drug testing policy in July 2008. Based on his recent DUI, we know he has been taking Xanax which is used to treat anxiety and panic disorders, THC and Ambien. It's possible that the mental toughness he exhibited in his prime was due to better living through chemicals and the drug testing policy could have also contributed to his decline, although I think the injuries are the greatest factor.

The PGA anti-doping manual is here. Interestingly enough, I don't see Xanax listed.
 

barbed wire Bob

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Aside from the THC, the others were all legally prescribed, no?
They can be legally prescribed but still be not permissible unless an exemption from the PGA is obtained. Also, any prescribed med can't give you any advantage. The specific wording from the 2015 manual is quoted below.
THERAPEUTIC USE EXEMPTIONS (“TUEs”)
Players may obtain a TUE for the use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method where:
(1) The player would experience a significant impairment to health if the Prohibited Substance or
Prohibited Method were to be withheld in the course of treating an acute or chronic medical
condition (the use of any Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method to increase “low-normal”
levels of any Endogenous hormone is not considered an acceptable therapeutic intervention);
and
(2) The therapeutic use of the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method would produce no
additional enhancement of performance other than that which might be anticipated by a return
to a state of normal health following the treatment of a legitimate medical condition; and
(3) There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the otherwise Prohibited Substance
or Prohibited Method; and
(4) The necessity for the use of the otherwise Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is not
a consequence, wholly or in part, of a prior non-therapeutic use of any substance on the PGA
TOUR Prohibited List.
A TUE can only be granted if all four criteria are fulfilled.
I never heard of Tiger getting a TUE but that doesn't mean one wasn't issued. Also, it should be noted that I never heard of Tiger failing a drug test (although we all know how easy it would be to cheat) so there's that.

Edit: upon further reading of PGA anti-doping policy I found out that the anti-anxiety drugs Atarax, Ativan, Buspar, Librium, Valium, Vistaril and Xanax are all permitted.

So I guess I'm full of shit.
 
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BigMike

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Pretty epic meltdown by DJ yesterday. He could do nothing right. He started the round with a 6 shot lead. After 10 holes he was still 6 ahead of Rose, and Rose ends up winning by 2 strokes
 

The Needler

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If Casey Martin can be exempted to ride a cart, a prescription medication likely would be within the realm of possible, I would think.
Casey Martin was granted an exemption because the Supreme Court said it would violate the ADA not to do so. Since marijuana/THC cannot be "legally prescribed" under federal law, I don't think it's likely that acourt would say not allowing players to violate federal law is a violation of federal law.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Faxon reports that Tiger outdrove DJ about half of the time in the quick round they played with Trump. I’m pretty shocked if that is true. I just can’t imagine he’s healthy enough to go at it like that, but if he did that’s a real good sign. He needs his length to have any chance to ever win again.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Faxon reports that Tiger outdrove DJ about half of the time in the quick round they played with Trump. I’m pretty shocked if that is true. I just can’t imagine he’s healthy enough to go at it like that, but if he did that’s a real good sign. He needs his length to have any chance to ever win again.
He needs above average length to win, but I disagree if you're saying he needs elite length to win again. Tiger has always been one of the best short game players (if not the best all time). If his touch around the greens is back, he'll win again and probably pretty quickly. I don't think length is any precondition to winning for him, he could go out tomorrow and probably win at a place like Harbor Town if he had the short game magic working.
 

SoxJox

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I recall in his younger days, he worked with Butch Harmon to reduce his length to gain better control. On this, in his biography of Woods, John Strege says:

Harmon also taught him to reduce the speed of his swing to seventy-five to eighty-five percent of capacity, which gives him greater control. The only time he should attempt to reach one hundred percent, Harmon said, is when the situation requires that he take the risk to gain an additional thirty to forty yards.
 

cshea

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The quality isn’t great, but here’s Tiger swinging the driver yesterday at Albany. I guess Fowler has played with Tiger at Medalist a few times recently and has reported the same thing, Tiger keeping up with/driving it past him.


We’ll see how he looks this week, I’m definitely pumped. But I’m a fanboy and get sucked in every time he does this. Hope springs eternal I guess.
 
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PaulinMyrBch

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He needs above average length to win, but I disagree if you're saying he needs elite length to win again. Tiger has always been one of the best short game players (if not the best all time). If his touch around the greens is back, he'll win again and probably pretty quickly. I don't think length is any precondition to winning for him, he could go out tomorrow and probably win at a place like Harbor Town if he had the short game magic working.
I'm with you. But he can't be below average. I was remembering his last attempt at a comeback before this injury recovery. I saw a round before he had that flair up, not sure where he was playing, but he was in a group with DJ and another long hitter and it was clear on TV he wasn't anywhere near those guys off the tee. I remember thinking he's got no chance if he can't get his length back. And thinking about it, I agree with you, he doesn't need elite length, but I think he needs to be able to be out there in some similar spots because the amount of guys that hit it long now is greater than before. So he might be OK here and there depending on the course, but to have any consistency, he's going to need to be able to drive it. Mainly because on any given day, DJ, the Justins, Jordan, Rory, Jason Day, Rickie are going to be up there turning par 5's into 4's. He's got to be able to play the same course as those guys.

Again, its a good sign if his length is there. Means he's healthy and is finally able to go after it a bit. I'm hoping he stays healthy. A year of him in contention and playing all 4 majors would be huge and fun to watch.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Also, the swing in that vid is not what I expect when I hear he's driving it with DJ. It's a very short driver swing. Very restrictive. It's possible he's taking a bit off it to keep it low in the wind, but he's always had the stinger for that. So I'm curious to see how he looks this weekend.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Here's a better look from the same practice round. The swing looks very very balanced for the first time in years. He tends to start to go after it harder during tournament rounds, so we'll see if it still looks the same by Sunday, but really liking this swing.

First thing I noticed is the squat on the downswing is way less pronounced and almost gone. That might be the best thing that ever happened to him.

 

PaulinMyrBch

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Nice find. I hope that is the swing that is driving it out there with DJ. If he's generating length with that, he may have a nice year if health holds up.

Yea that dip is gone, looks much more balanced from a body/arms/hands chain. I bet he won't have as many issues where he's chasing his body and having to throw the wrists late to get clubhead in the zone. Should make for more consistent driving. Those days where he has to fight the big push and the wristy hook don't seem like an issue with that balance.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I want to see the swing on hole 10 on Thursday. If he's still swinging like that, then the sky is the limit for him. However, if he's trying to charge it up and fighting his swing, then he still has a lot of work to do.

He can win with that swing. Let's see how the rest of his game looks. He's always been the best (along with Jack) at managing and thinking his way around a golf course. If his game is steady, he'll always compete.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Here's why I think length is somewhat critical for him. Not that he can't win with a solid short game, but the amount of guys hitting it long is crazy. The "any given Sunday" theory is that one of those long hitters is actually accurate and putting well each weekend.

Length was always an advantage for him in relation to the field, those days are over due to the sheer number of guys hitting it long. But...they all can't putt like him when he's on, so its going to be interesting if he's truly healthy.

 

cshea

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Not to derail from Tiger, but sleaking of length, there’s been some chatter recently about the possibility of a reduced-distance golf ball. Apparently the R&A and USGA have started researching the affects of a reduced distance ball on the game. There was a back and forth last week between Mike Davis (USGA) and Wally Uihlein (Titleist). Davis’ stance is that added distance leads to longer courses and increasing costs for everyone. Uihlein contends that the course architects can be more creative to counter the improvement in technology and physical fitness, and that part of the reason for longer courses is developers wanting to line the fairways with houses. Interesting back and forth, but I don’t think there is much data out in public to support either stance.

I know Tiger has spoken in favor of a reduced distance golf ball for tour play. I think it’s an interesting idea.
 

FL4WL3SS

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The question I'd have to Uihlein is, where does it stop? At some point they need to set some hard parameters on the ball, just like every other sport. I'd have no problem with them taking today's ball and saying "this is it" and not allowing future iterations to exceed the characteristics of today's ball.

There's gotta be a tipping point.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Equipment has a lot to do with that.
No doubt. Tiger played a steel shaft driver years after other guys were bombing graphite. Equipment brought those guys up to him. But the big advantage he and Jack both had is they were substantially longer than anyone on tour when they were in their prime years. He was playing a different course than pretty much everyone, as was Jack. Now any number of guys in top 10 on Sunday aren’t giving away length to anyone, so its just a more even playing field. That is until DJ decides to take it over the lake in the playoff. Not many can do what he does when he wants to reach down and go get it.
 

Clears Cleaver

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Tiger’s issue the last two years was not his length but his short game. It was a mess. He had the yips chipping and his putting was mediocre.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Here's a better look from the same practice round. The swing looks very very balanced for the first time in years. He tends to start to go after it harder during tournament rounds, so we'll see if it still looks the same by Sunday, but really liking this swing.

First thing I noticed is the squat on the downswing is way less pronounced and almost gone. That might be the best thing that ever happened to him.

Brandel Chamblee was saying this on the ForePlay Podcast. He needs to eliminate the squat in his swing.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I don't think he needs to eliminate it, it's something that was built into his swing the same way that Furyk has the crazy backswing, but it had gotten more pronounced since leaving Haney and with the swing he was trying to do with Foley probably is what exacerbated his back issues.

If he can minimize it, which it looks like he has, then it should really help his long game.