2018 Draft Buildup

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Jul 15, 2005
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I realize we have a couple threads under "Wait, Who???", but thought this could be a place for general draft chatter leading up to the draft in a couple weeks.

Mods, please move if you think appropriate.

 

SMU_Sox

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The irony there is even if you didn’t like Brown as a GM there is no way he’d go for a QB like Allen. That being said even though I am very pessimistic on his long term chances to succeed Cleveland can sit him 1-2 years with Tyrod Taylor at the helm.
 

dcmissle

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Jason LaCanfora on DC radio. At least the first 5 minutes were spent on Pats — Gronk stuff and draft. Mayfield is our guy, he says. Doesn’t know the degree to which the Pats will chase. Everyone from owner down on the same page that QB must be addressed.
 

axx

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Kind of think the rumors that the Giants only like Darnold are true, and if the Browns do take him the Giants will trade the pick, maybe to Buffalo.
 

SMU_Sox

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Look, I don't have Josh Allen as a 1st round pick. I don't think he is ever going to pan out in the NFL and just going by the odds you could say that about anyone drafted at QB. But even more so him. That being said if you're going to draft him you need to have a guy you can develop him behind for a year or two. Can you get away with that in Cleveland? I am assuming that if you're taking Allen that high everyone in the organization would have to understand that and get behind it. So let's assume he has at least a year of development. They now have a competent but not spectacular starter in Tyrod Taylor. So as much as I would hate Allen at #1 Cleveland would be starting his ideal path to development the right way.
 

Super Nomario

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Look, I don't have Josh Allen as a 1st round pick. I don't think he is ever going to pan out in the NFL and just going by the odds you could say that about anyone drafted at QB. But even more so him. That being said if you're going to draft him you need to have a guy you can develop him behind for a year or two. Can you get away with that in Cleveland? I am assuming that if you're taking Allen that high everyone in the organization would have to understand that and get behind it. So let's assume he has at least a year of development. They now have a competent but not spectacular starter in Tyrod Taylor. So as much as I would hate Allen at #1 Cleveland would be starting his ideal path to development the right way.
On paper, I agree. I am skeptical we see things play out this way. The Browns are improved but still unlikely to be good, Hue has got to be feeling some pressure, and Taylor is a guy with limitations. Whoever goes 1.01 is probably starting by Week 6. We've seen this play out again and again.
 

Cellar-Door

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Look, I don't have Josh Allen as a 1st round pick. I don't think he is ever going to pan out in the NFL and just going by the odds you could say that about anyone drafted at QB. But even more so him. That being said if you're going to draft him you need to have a guy you can develop him behind for a year or two. Can you get away with that in Cleveland? I am assuming that if you're taking Allen that high everyone in the organization would have to understand that and get behind it. So let's assume he has at least a year of development. They now have a competent but not spectacular starter in Tyrod Taylor. So as much as I would hate Allen at #1 Cleveland would be starting his ideal path to development the right way.
If Hue Jackson has proven one thing during his time with the Browns it's that he has no clue how to handle QBs. Vet plays mediocre.... out he comes for the Rookie (usually mid-game) the rookie is awful SHOCKING, back to the vet (sometimes in the same game the vet was originally benched), lets take a look at the 3rd QB, he's a great athlete..... oh whoops he's bad at passing. Back to the best passer of the bunch.... nah not explosive enough, lets run through all 3 QBs in one game.

Hue Jackson is the worst QB managing head coach in the history of the National Football League, and it isn't close. I don't think it matters who they draft, his first season will be a disaster. Question is whether he has a Goff-like bounce back year 2 when they fire Hue and hire a real coach (unless they Browns it up and hire Jeff Fisher or Brian Schottenheimer).
 

Jed Zeppelin

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If Hue Jackson has proven one thing during his time with the Browns it's that he has no clue how to handle QBs. Vet plays mediocre.... out he comes for the Rookie (usually mid-game) the rookie is awful SHOCKING, back to the vet (sometimes in the same game the vet was originally benched), lets take a look at the 3rd QB, he's a great athlete..... oh whoops he's bad at passing. Back to the best passer of the bunch.... nah not explosive enough, lets run through all 3 QBs in one game.

Hue Jackson is the worst QB managing head coach in the history of the National Football League, and it isn't close. I don't think it matters who they draft, his first season will be a disaster. Question is whether he has a Goff-like bounce back year 2 when they fire Hue and hire a real coach (unless they Browns it up and hire Jeff Fisher or Brian Schottenheimer).
This is pretty much exactly my issue with the unstable Browns going with the guy who needs the most work. Hue Jackson has 1 win in two years, so how long will he be around? How much will Allen develop in that time? From there, how many different coaches and offenses will he have to learn during his time in Cleveland? Strikes me as a potentially disastrous pairing.
 

SMU_Sox

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On paper, I agree. I am skeptical we see things play out this way. The Browns are improved but still unlikely to be good, Hue has got to be feeling some pressure, and Taylor is a guy with limitations. Whoever goes 1.01 is probably starting by Week 6. We've seen this play out again and again.
If Hue Jackson has proven one thing during his time with the Browns it's that he has no clue how to handle QBs. Vet plays mediocre.... out he comes for the Rookie (usually mid-game) the rookie is awful SHOCKING, back to the vet (sometimes in the same game the vet was originally benched), lets take a look at the 3rd QB, he's a great athlete..... oh whoops he's bad at passing. Back to the best passer of the bunch.... nah not explosive enough, lets run through all 3 QBs in one game.

Hue Jackson is the worst QB managing head coach in the history of the National Football League, and it isn't close. I don't think it matters who they draft, his first season will be a disaster. Question is whether he has a Goff-like bounce back year 2 when they fire Hue and hire a real coach (unless they Browns it up and hire Jeff Fisher or Brian Schottenheimer).
This is pretty much exactly my issue with the unstable Browns going with the guy who needs the most work. Hue Jackson has 1 win in two years, so how long will he be around? How much will Allen develop in that time? From there, how many different coaches and offenses will he have to learn during his time in Cleveland? Strikes me as a potentially disastrous pairing.
And that's the sad part - this has disaster written all over it from day one if it occurs. That would be a shame for both the Browns and Josh Allen. Yeah sure, on paper, as you put it well, there is this sliver of hope. I followed the Browns a lot recently because I was so curious about how Sashi Brown would turn out. I ended up understanding why they let him go, but couldn't understand why they kept Hue Jackson. If they were going to fire Brown given how Jackson bungled Kizer why on earth did they keep him? Kizer is probably used to this by now - first Brian Kelly and then Hue Jackson. So yeah, I think this is whole experiment would be DOA, but certainly don't wish that on them and hope that sliver of hope would materialize should this scenario play out.
 

bakahump

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Is there any possibility that the Owners would sit Jackson down and "Forbid" him to play "Allen/#1 QB Pick"?
And if thats a possible/likely scenario, is it possible that at some point ("Game 6") Hue in the middle of a game trots him out there?

Whats the worse that could happen to Jackson? Fired the next day? Pretty much a given at this point he will be fired after this year anyway. Maybe he thinks "If Allen succeeds the owners will forgive me". He certainly wont be "burning a chance at another HC job". Maybe be black listed as even a Asst? Eh go coach in College or take the millions he has made and retire.

That would be totally Brownsian as well.

Weird situation. I would normally think someone in Jacksons place would follow any owners dictate, but on the flip side whats he got to lose? And if Allen succeeds he looks like a Genius and gains more job security. Plus he would have the "Owners didnt want me to play him, but I knew he was ready..." card to play if the rookie did somehow succeed.

Like many have said a huge possibility for a mess.

Probably should have fired Hue after last season and brought in a new guy and told him "look we have no expectations for 2018. Draft and groom a QB to be ready for 2019. We signed you as our HC for 5 years for a reason. Dont worry about job Security at all. Build for 19,20 and beyond".
 

bsj

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I happen to love Allen, and think, in the right system, he could peak as a top 10 NFL qb. But would have to be the right system. Good cast, good running game, good TE.
 

bakahump

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But what qb wouldn’t be top 15 In that situation? I know you said top 10 but that’s not really much value. If I could take a 3rd qb and be 15th best offense/qb why take a guy #5 to be 9th

And that’s not even considering that you would have the same conundrum the ravens had. Eventually you would be paying a slightly above avg qb 20+ million which makes surrounding him with your requirements difficult.
 

bsj

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I mean...Stafford, ryan, and cousins were the 8-10 guys last year. I think the browns would walk over broken glass.to have one of them
 

dcmissle

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I mean...Stafford, ryan, and cousins were the 8-10 guys last year. I think the browns would walk over broken glass.to have one of them
Last season Cousins played with second,third,fourth string o-line line, crap for WR other than Jamison Crowder, no tight end of real note (Reid hurt, as always) and crap for a running game. You really find out about guys when chips are down.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Move up for Roquan Smith? For a QB I would just rather see if Lamar Jackson falls to the Pats pick. If Smith begins to slide I would see what the cost is
 

dcmissle

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And this means what, that they have spoken with Rosen and/or his agent? The statement is so vague it’s almost meaningless.

I think it’s almost impossible to camouflage your interest in moving up. At some point, you have to call other teams. It’s not in their interest to have the fact of the calls kept confidential. The opposite.

But the identity of the target, good luck.
 

RedOctober3829

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And this means what, that they have spoken with Rosen and/or his agent? The statement is so vague it’s almost meaningless.

I think it’s almost impossible to camouflage your interest in moving up. At some point, you have to call other teams. It’s not in their interest to have the fact of the calls kept confidential. The opposite.

But the identity of the target, good luck.
It could be Rosen or some QB, Roquan Smith, Derwin James, or somebody else we aren't thinking of. These trade possibilities won't come to fruition until they see how the board plays out. They'll have some sort of idea of the compensation with whatever draft value chart the league uses now so it won't take long to work something out.
 

dcmissle

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It could be Rosen or some QB, Roquan Smith, Derwin James, or somebody else we aren't thinking of. These trade possibilities won't come to fruition until they see how the board plays out. They'll have some sort of idea of the compensation with whatever draft value chart the league uses now so it won't take long to work something out.
Right.

You do have the identify potential movers, and that’s what teams are doing right now, and by every indication the Pats are in the mix.
 

DJnVa

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I love these tweets. I’m sure Pats are “interested” in every 1st round talent.
I mean, of course they are. But Kyed is around the team, this is slightly more meaningful than usual I would think.
 

pappymojo

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Yep. Teams do their own mock draft scenarios sort of like "Choose Your Own Adventure". If such and such happens to Team X, Y, and Z and Player A, B, or C is available what do we do?
The butterfly effect.

I would be very interested to see a cascading series of mock drafts that could reflect the different timelines for each draft pick. Let's say, for example, that each draft pick represents a point in each draft sequence where the mock draft is split into three separate timelines.

Starting with the first pick, you mock three picks to the Browns (for example, Darnold, Allen and Mayfield) and these now represent three separate mock drafts or timelines going into the second pick:

(1) Darnold is not available
(2) Allen is not available
(3) Mayfield is not available

Then with the second pick, you mock three top picks for the Giants in each scenario:

At this point, maybe you have seven or eight timelines for the Jets at the third pick:

(1A) Darnold & Barkley are not available
(1B) Darnold & Mayfield are not available
(1C) Darnold & Chubb are not available
(2A) Allen & Darnold are not available
(2B) Allen & Barkley are not available
(2C) Allen & Mayfield are not available
(3A) eliminated - see (1B)
(3B) eliminated - see (2C)
(3C) Mayfield & Barkley are not available

Again, you would identify the top three picks for each scenario above.

Obviously, it would be a ton of work, but I think it would very interesting to identify points in the draft where a team's top three choices normalize across a majority of the separate timelines. It would also be interesting to attempt to identify probabilities for which players may be available at any given point of the draft. For example, what chance is there that Derwin James is available at 21?
 

Shelterdog

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If I were Rosen's agent I'd really, really spread the idea that BB loves Rosen--because that might help eliminate one of the big red flags about Rosen, namely that Rosen doesn't have the right mental makeup to be a QB.
 

bankshot1

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Rosen is not falling to the Pats, and I can't see the Pats going all in to move up. This is probably a pre-draft smoke screen or BB is screwing around and sending a postcard to Qatar.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
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Any of you going to be in Dallas for the draft? I am going to be there. I think for some of the day I will be doing some networking and job related things but if you are going shoot me a PM. Could be fun to meet up and/or grab food.
 

dcmissle

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If I were Rosen's agent I'd really, really spread the idea that BB loves Rosen--because that might help eliminate one of the big red flags about Rosen, namely that Rosen doesn't have the right mental makeup to be a QB.
Right. And while the Pats cannot hide an interest in moving up, if they have one, they certainly can lay a false trail on the intended target, so this may serve their interests too.

If it’s a QB they are hunting, if forced to bet between the two, I’d wager on the anti-Rosen, Lamar Jackson, before I’d lay money on Rosen. He’s now too obvious.
 

BaseballJones

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I really wonder about Jackson. He's like, completely different than either Brady or JG. Unbelievable, world-class athlete. Strong arm. Not super accurate. Explosive playmaker, but has some holes in his game that might be exposed big-time in the NFL.

But if they drafted him, could McDaniels coach him up in those things? Because if he could ever improve to the point where he became pretty accurate (doesn't have to have elite accuracy), he could be one of the NFL's most incredible weapons. Basically think about Cam Newton or Deshaun Watson, just smaller.

It just seems like not the guy the Patriots would go after, but I just wonder. Can he really succeed in the NFL?
 

E5 Yaz

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If Rosen is still available after the first three picks, where do these prognosticators think the Pats would have to move to to grab him? Particularly since Buffalo and Arizona need quarterbacks and Denver is sitting there at 5 and could easily take him themselves.

The 49ers trade talk seems silly to me: Rosen won't be there then. The only spot that makes any sense is 4 ... and the Browns would be foolish (which is always a possibility) to give up one of the four best players in this draft.

The Pats getting Rosen is all hat, no cattle.
 

reggiecleveland

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Quick question. I have read afew statistical analysis of the Mel Kuiper's picks, and there seems a consnesus that he does not do very well.

Do you think SOSh could beat him?
 

SMU_Sox

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For the sake of the argument let's take a look at what moving up would take at places where we have heard teams are looking to potentially trade back aside from #2.

Using the standard old draft value chart. It is highlighted for all the Patriots picks.

Here are what the Patriots picks are worth:

#23: 760
#31: 600
#43: 470
#63: 276
#95: 120
#198: 11.8
#210: 7
#219: 3.4
Total: 2,248.2


#4 Cleveland
Pick Worth: 1,800
Potential Trade:
NE Gets: #4 (1,800), #150 (31), 1,831 Total
CLE Gets: #23 (760), #31 (600), #43 (470), 1,830 Total

#9 SF:
Pick Worth: 1,350
Potential Trade:
NE Gets: #9 (1,350)
SF Gets: #23 (760), #31 (600), 1,360 Total

#13 Washington:
Pick Worth: 1,150
Potential Trade:
NE Gets: #13 (1,150), #109 (76), 1,226 Total
WAS Gets: #23 (760), #43 (470), 1,230 Total

#18 Seattle
Pick Worth: 900
Potential Trade:
NE Gets: #19 (900)
SEA Gets: #31 (600), #63 (276), 876 Total (Might need to throw a future pick in to get it to work).

Aside from trading up to #4 I don't mind any of these. You can still trade a first or second rounder down for additional picks in those scenarios too. This isn't just about QB, there are so many potential scenarios.
 

dcmissle

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FWIW, Elway has announced that pick # 5 is for sale. Sports flash 3:00 pm.

FWIW, Casserly pushed on local radio about Pats drafting a QB (which is really getting a lot of traction out here in the country):

“You won’t see it before the second round. They have many needs.”

Opinions like a-holes, but I do wonder if we are getting too caught up in this.
 

j-man

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Dec 19, 2012
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my 1-round mock
1 Cle QB J Allen
2 NYG DE B Chubb
3 NYJ QB J Rosen
4 cle RB Barkely
5 Den trades down to 8 5 Chi G Q Nelson
6 Indy trade down to 12 6 buff QB S Donald
7 tb S M Fitzpatick
8 Den qb b mayfield
9 sf cb J Jackson
10 oak M Migliney RT
11 Mia G Smith ILB
12 DEN D Ward CB indy gets denver 2019 1st denver gets the bears 2019 fisrt and J Howard RB
13 Wash v vea DT
14 GB C Sutton SMU
15 Zona D James s
16 balt C Williams Tex
17 SD L Jackson qb louis
18 indy trade from sea T Edwaeds ILB VT
19 Dal WR C Ridley
20 Det olb H landry
21 Ciny M Davenport
22 Indy from buffalo CB M Hugers
23 NE T K Miller UCLA
24 Car WR J Washington
25 ILB R Evans Tenn
26 atl dt m hurst
27 no LB L Vander Each
28 Pitt trades with sea sea I Wynn G
29 Jax WR D J Moore
30 minn will herzard g utep
31 ne te d gobaert
32 philly trades with chi Chi 32 D Guire RB
 

dcmissle

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Don’t be shocked if they use a first round pick on him. It’s the same story every year. Beginning in Feb, the QBs get picked to death. Come draft day, they are over drafted. Would not be surprised if 5 go if the first half of round 1.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
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Don’t be shocked if they use a first round pick on him. It’s the same story every year. Beginning in Feb, the QBs get picked to death. Come draft day, they are over drafted. Would not be surprised if 5 go if the first half of round 1.
I honestly wouldn't be opposed to it at 31 if they love him. Would mean an extra year of control