2018 NFL Hall of Fame

Oppo

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2009
1,576

Didn't see this posted yesterday but 2018 Hall of Fame semifinalists announced.
Former Pats include Law, Seymour, and Moss. Also the IR-ed Holt.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Tough class; I’d probably go Lewis, Law, Hutchinson, Faneca, Owens and Moss if I were to just pick a top seven. I’m afraid we might live in a world where Hines Ward goes in ahead of Moss and Owens.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,193
San Francisco
Tough class; I’d probably go Lewis, Law, Hutchinson, Faneca, Owens and Moss if I were to just pick a top seven. I’m afraid we might live in a world where Hines Ward goes in ahead of Moss and Owens.
How is Ward ahead of either of them? Isnt Moss maybe the best wideout ever?
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,623
Tough class; I’d probably go Lewis, Law, Hutchinson, Faneca, Owens and Moss if I were to just pick a top seven. I’m afraid we might live in a world where Hines Ward goes in ahead of Moss and Owens.
Mawae dude, cmon.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
How is Ward ahead of either of them? Isnt Moss maybe the best wideout ever?
I’m just saying Moss and Owens were bypassed last year and they are arguably better than any WR in the Hall of Fame except Rice; plus Ward is the kind of guy old sportswriters love to overrate.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Mawae dude, cmon.
I actually meant to put Mawae down and originally thought your post was calling me out for including him; so I just spent a few minutes building a case for him, and then realizing I left him off the list. I’d have him over Faneca, Law and maybe Hutchinson. He might be the best Center ever.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,193
San Francisco
I’m just saying Moss and Owens were bypassed last year and they are arguably better than any WR in the Hall of Fame except Rice; plus Ward is the kind of guy old sportswriters love to overrate.
Yea I wasnt disagreeing, just shocked they didnt get in first ballot.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,623
I actually meant to put Mawae down and originally thought your post was calling me out for including him; so I just spent a few minutes building a case for him, and then realizing I left him off the list. I’d have him over Faneca, Law and maybe Hutchinson. He might be the best Center ever.

All is forgiven
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,913
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
In what world does Law make it in, but not Dawkins? I think Brian Dawkins is a borderline slam dunk.

Edit to clarify that I think Law is also a slam dunk and he's my all time favorite Patriot.
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,333
I’m not saying Chad Johnson is a HOFer, but he averaged 1374 yards for a five-year span. Hines Ward’s career high is 1329 and he never even hit 1200 again. Just blow the whole thing up if he gets in.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,827
Needham, MA
Will Ray Lewis do his murder dance if he gets elected?

Moss and Owens are the two best wide receivers not named Jerry Rice I have ever watched play. Both should be in, but if Hines Ward somehow gets elected before those two I'm out.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,312
Is this a particularly strong class? Seems like most guys here have a legit argument for inclusion.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
22,345
Philadelphia
Tough class. Lewis, Moss, Owens, Dawkins, Faneca, Mawae are my top six. Next is a toss up between Hutchinson and Urlacher, both of whom deserve induction eventually just maybe not this year.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,592
Here
I’m afraid we might live in a world where Hines Ward goes in ahead of Moss and Owens.
And Bruce. He was also better than Ward. If not for Moss and Owens, Bruce would be on my ballot. How does a guy with 15k receiving yards not make the Hall eventually?
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,333
My only issue with putting Dawkins in this year is that Rodney isn't in. If Dawkins deserves to be in, so does Rodney.
Comparing safeties quantitatively is pretty hard, but Dawkins had 140 career AV to Harrison’s 92. It’s tough to see how Harrison was definitively better.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,913
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
Comparing safeties quantitatively is pretty hard, but Dawkins had 140 career AV to Harrison’s 92. It’s tough to see how Harrison was definitively better.
Not saying Rodney was better, but feel he should also get in pretty easily. His counting starts are pretty impressive and he was a key player on 2 SB teams.

Dawkins is pretty clearly going to get in though.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
8,548
KPWT
How is Ward ahead of either of them? Isnt Moss maybe the best wideout ever?

Don't ever disrespect Jerry Rice like this again. The difference between Rice and any other receiver is enormous. Like, the difference between Randy Moss and Hines Ward enormous.

Moss and Lewis have to be first ballot guys, so my 7 would be

Lewis, Moss, Owens, Hutchinson, Mawae and Lynch for players.

Jimmah as a coach.

And it is bullshit that Tom Flores isn't close. If my 7 above get in, there will some craziness in Ohio next August with Lewis, Moss, Owens and Johnson all giving speeches, as well as a former Union Head and a current NFL GM*. I have to think the 49ers would be one of the teams playing against the Vikes or Ravens, since they wouldn't send the Cowboys in back to back years.

Here is some helpful HoF vote history:

 

Oil Can Dan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2003
8,015
0-3 to 4-3
Curious as to your justification of Lynch over Dawkins? There's a fairly significant gap between the two so far as basic statistics go. Lynch has a SB ring while Dawk does not, but that's about all I can see.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
8,548
KPWT
I don't have one, you are right, Dawkins over Lynch. For some reason I had it in my head that he was already in. Totally missed on that one.
 

Oil Can Dan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2003
8,015
0-3 to 4-3
Cool, no worries. Dawk's my favorite player of ever so I am a little sensitive when it comes to my binky.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
Moss & Lewis are locks. Bet the farm on their making it. They’re both Top 3 All-Time at their positions and have taken on prominent roles as NFL spokesmen and TV analysts.

Per our favorite Starbucks customer (did you know he lives in Manhattan?) whose broadly anti-stats and common wisdom laziness probably speak for most voters:

Ray Lewis and Randy Moss look like locks for election in 2018. There are no others. Lewis is easy. Some of you will say, Why is Moss a lock and Terrell Owens behind him? I’ll give you my thought—and keep in mind I’m just one voter of the 48 on the Hall panel. Randy Moss is the most consistently electric downfield threat in this wideout-dominating era of pro football. He’ll rightfully get dinged for occasionally dogging it, which is indefensible. But his talent over 14 seasons, and his 166 receiving TDs (regular season and playoffs), are undeniable. His 23-TD season with Tom Brady in 2007 may be the greatest season a wide receiver ever had. I have voted for Owens in the past, and will likely vote for him on the cut from 15 to 10. I think he belongs in the Hall, despite his disruptive team traits. I just like Moss more.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/11/22/pro-football-hall-fame-2018-voting-nfl-randy-moss-ray-lewis-peter-king-mmqb
 

ilol@u

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 2, 2009
4,231
Foxboro
I have a soft spot for Randy Moss since his Viking days, so watching that 2007 NFL Draft and seeing the Patriots trade a 4th rounder for Moss was almost a sports-life changing moment.

Randy Moss in my opinion is the greatest WR in NFL history. Sure, Jerry Rice had better volume numbers due to his long career - but that physical talent that Moss had was ridiculous. I think now a days with analytics and play calling you honestly don't see QBs just throw the ball up consistently to a WR and hope for the best. Maybe Stafford to Calvin Johnson. But Moss almost always came down with those balls. His speed, height, ability to jump at the peak and strong hands made watching him a joy as a football fan.

I always get sad knowing that Randy Moss and Junior Seau went to the Patriots and never won a ring in their career. They deserved it.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
I have a soft spot for Randy Moss since his Viking days, so watching that 2007 NFL Draft and seeing the Patriots trade a 4th rounder for Moss was almost a sports-life changing moment.

Randy Moss in my opinion is the greatest WR in NFL history. Sure, Jerry Rice had better volume numbers due to his long career - but that physical talent that Moss had was ridiculous. I think now a days with analytics and play calling you honestly don't see QBs just throw the ball up consistently to a WR and hope for the best. Maybe Stafford to Calvin Johnson. But Moss almost always came down with those balls. His speed, height, ability to jump at the peak and strong hands made watching him a joy as a football fan.

I always get sad knowing that Randy Moss and Junior Seau went to the Patriots and never won a ring in their career. They deserved it.
The bolded is an over-simplification. Rice had better volume numbers because of his long career, but also because he put up better numbers at his peak. He led the league in receiving yards six times - Moss never did. He led the league in touchdowns six times to Moss' five. Moss famously broke Rice's record with 23 touchdowns in a season, but Rice put up his 22 mark in only 12 games. Rice was more dominant statistically at his peak even before you consider playing most of his career in a less pass-happy era, effort / off-field issues, or his blocking.

I think the best case for Moss is that he did not play with the caliber of quarterback talent or coaching talent that Rice did, and his dominance made his quarterbacks look better. Randall Cunningham had the best season of his long career at the age of 35 in Moss' rookie campaign, then Jeff George probably had the best season of his career in his lone year with Moss. Then Daunte Culpepper was really good right away and completely cratered after Moss left at the age of 28. And of course Brady put up his best campaign in a HOF career with Moss. Cassel, too, put up either his best or second-best season with Moss. I guess if you take a really dim view of Culpepper you can make the case that Moss basically made his career, Moss never played with a good QB until Brady at the end, and Moss was the most impactful non-QB in recent history.

Rice has a stronger claim to that title, though, even before you weigh his longevity, durability, and off-field. His peak was nuts.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,388
By AV, here are their top 5 seasons:

Rice
1994: 112 rec, 1499 yds, 13.4 ypc, 13 td, 21 av
1993: 98 rec, 1503 yds, 15.3 ypc, 15 td, 20 av
1995: 122 rec, 1848 yds, 15.1 ypc, 15 td, 19 av
1989: 82 rec, 1483 yds, 18.1 ypc, 17 td, 18 av
1992: 84 rec, 1201 yds, 14.3 ypc, 10 td, 17 av

Heck, for Rice, his 1570, 15 td season isn't in the top 5. Nor is his 22 td season. Nor is his 100 rec, 1502 yd, 13 td season.

Moss
2007: 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 ypc, 23 td, 20 av
1998: 69 rec, 1313 yds, 19.0 ypc, 17 td, 17 av
2000: 77 rec, 1437 yds, 18.7 ypc, 15 td, 17 av
2003: 111 rec, 1632 yds, 14.7 ypc, 17 td, 17 av
1999: 80 rec, 1413 yds, 17.7 ypc, 11 td, 15 av

Both were insanely good football players and wide receivers. Rice gets higher AV numbers presumably because it became more of a passing league when Moss was in his prime.

Here's one amazing thing to consider. In 2002, Moss was a 25 year old stud. Rice was a 40 year old guy. In that season:

Moss: 106 rec, 1347 yds, 12.7 ypc, 7 td, 13 av
Rice: 92 rec, 1211 yds, 13.2 ypc, 7 td, 12 av

Remarkable what Jerry Rice was able to do. Now where do we include the part about Rice admitting to having used stickum illegally? :)
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
I think the usage of stickum is huge (legality aside) for Rice's numbers - though I think modern gloves close the artificial aid gap. Moss played under ever restrictive rules governing defensive coverage and rules that kept his QB upright.

I think the biggest factor in my mind was that Rice always seemed to be on a loaded offensive team which meant limited defensive resources to be allocated to him.

If I were starting a BB coached team today and was drafting either one I'd want Moss. If the coach were anyone else I'd want Rice... Which I guess means I favor Rice. I really dislike Rice's hypocritical personality too - it pains me to speak of him in a positive way.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,827
Needham, MA
As much as I loved Randy both before he became a Patriot and then (obviously) during his years here, I can't agree with that take. Randy Moss may have been more physically talented than Rice, I don't think there is another receiver who had his combination of hands, speed and height. But Rice was an absolute clinician in terms of running routes, and his work ethic is beyond legendary. Rice would have been the perfect receiver to compliment Brady in BB's system, because he's the ultimate "do your job" receiver who ever lived, who also happened to have elite speed, hands and durability.

Moss was more of a "throw it up and I'll get it'' player, which worked incredibly in New England for a couple of years, but it is telling that as soon as Gronk and Hernandez arrived BB recognized that the team would be better off without Moss and traded him. Moss was also an enigmatic guy who spent not-insignificant chunks of his prime not really giving a shit, which, as much as I love him, has to count against him in a head-to-head comparison.

Still think Moss is the 2nd greatest modern era WR ever, but Rice is in a category all to himself.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
As much as I loved Randy both before he became a Patriot and then (obviously) during his years here, I can't agree with that take. Randy Moss may have been more physically talented than Rice, I don't think there is another receiver who had his combination of hands, speed and height. But Rice was an absolute clinician in terms of running routes, and his work ethic is beyond legendary. Rice would have been the perfect receiver to compliment Brady in BB's system, because he's the ultimate "do your job" receiver who ever lived, who also happened to have elite speed, hands and durability.

Moss was more of a "throw it up and I'll get it'' player, which worked incredibly in New England for a couple of years, but it is telling that as soon as Gronk and Hernandez arrived BB recognized that the team would be better off without Moss and traded him. Moss was also an enigmatic guy who spent not-insignificant chunks of his prime not really giving a shit, which, as much as I love him, has to count against him in a head-to-head comparison.

Still think Moss is the 2nd greatest modern era WR ever, but Rice is in a category all to himself.

Agree with this entirely. Moss as a WR was more capable of performing the spectacular than pretty much any wideout ever; and he put up some big seasons and deserves almost every accolade he receives. I find it really hard to believe Moss would be a better long term option for the Patriots than Rice.

Moss was in New England and was great for two seasons, before unceremoniously bristling his way of town. I imagine Rice would have stuck around a lot longer. Rice in this offense would be something like the league has never seen before. From a skill standpoint; we can consider Edelman a homeless man’s Rice, and Edelman has been a beast playing for the Pats. Put Rice in this offense and he might pull down 130 passes a year for 15 years.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,049
Rice also prided himself on intentionally trying to wear defenders down with his game the better to beat them with his conditioning late in games.

That’s something beyond just beating guys on highlight reel plays and can pay dividends across the offense, and as much as I love Randy, I don’t see that as having been part of his game.
 

Sportsbstn

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 8, 2004
8,794
I’m not sure beyond Randy’s rookie season and patriots first season that he played with a full out effort. His combination of size and speed was never seen before in the NFL. He wasn’t anywhere near the route runner that rice was and rice wasn’t anywhere close to as fast as Moss. In the end though, Rice get max effort all the time while Moss was famous for taking plays off. Moss could have been so much better than he ended up being, which is scary.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,770
Pittsburgh, PA
I’m just saying Moss and Owens were bypassed last year and they are arguably better than any WR in the Hall of Fame except Rice; plus Ward is the kind of guy old sportswriters love to overrate.
I thought it was Owens who was bypassed last year; isn't this the first year Moss is eligible?

And yeah, with apologies to Posnanski: the purpose of having a hall of fame is so you can put players like Moss, Owens and Dawkins in it.

Fun fact from the 2018 ballot: As a passer, in his career Randy Moss was 4-for-8 for 106 yards, with 2 TD and 1 INT.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,770
Pittsburgh, PA
While I'm at it, two clips for you guys. The latter might be a preview of the sort of decisive conversations that will happen behind closed doors.


 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,777
Rotten Apple
Randy Moss, too. Full list: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000902168/article/pro-football-hall-of-fame-class-of-2018-announced

Ray Lewis, LB - 1996-2012 Baltimore Ravens

Brian Urlacher, LB - 2000-2012 Chicago Bears

Edgerrin James, RB - 1999-2005 Indianapolis Colts, 2006-08 Arizona Cardinals, 2009 Seattle Seahawks

Randy Moss, WR - 1998-2004, 2010 Minnesota Vikings, 2005-06 Oakland Raiders, 2007-2010 New England Patriots, 2010 Tennessee Titans, 2012 San Francisco 49ers

Terrell Owens, WR - 1996-2003 San Francisco 49ers, 2004-05 Philadelphia Eagles, 2006-08 Dallas Cowboys, 2009 Buffalo Bills, 2010 Cincinnati Bengals

Isaac Bruce, WR - 1994-2007 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 2008-09 San Francisco 49ers

John Lynch, FS - 1993-2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 2004-07 Denver Broncos

Brian Dawkins, S - 1996-2008 Philadelphia Eagles, 2009-2011 Denver Broncos

Everson Walls, CB - 1981-89 Dallas Cowboys, 1990-92 New York Giants, 1992-93 Cleveland Browns

Ty Law, CB - 1995-2004 New England Patriots, 2005, 2008 New York Jets, 2006-07 Kansas City Chiefs, 2009 Denver Broncos

Tony Boselli, T - 1995-2001 Jacksonville Jaguars, 2002 Houston Texans (injured reserve)

Kevin Mawae, C/G - 1994-97 Seattle Seahawks, 1998-2005 New York Jets, 2006-09 Tennessee Titans

Joe Jacoby, T - 1981-1993 Washington Redskins

Steve Hutchinson, G - 2001-05 Seattle Seahawks, 2006-2011 Minnesota Vikings, 2012 Tennessee Titans

Alan Faneca, G - 1998-2007 Pittsburgh Steelers, 2008-09 New York Jets, 2010 Arizona Cardinals
 

NortheasternPJ

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2004
19,272
I'm shocked that Hines Ward didn't make it even as a finalist. I don't think he deserves to be, but I'm shocked he didn't make it with all his hustle and determination.
 

Hoya81

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 3, 2010
8,458
It's really a ridiculously gifted list. What is the limit on how many they could vote for?
I think it is 5 modern candidates and 2 senior candidates.

5 is too low, they should go up to at least 10.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,846
It's really a ridiculously gifted list. What is the limit on how many they could vote for?
5.

My five: Lewis, Moss, Faneca, Hutchinson, Owens. Next two out: Urlacher, Dawkins. The top seven are all no-doubters who should be in eventually. Then there's a whole bunch of borderline guys with interesting cases who could get in in the right year (James, Bruce, Law, Boselli, Lynch, Mawae). But this is not that year.

The backlog is the result of the committee screwing up the previous years. Owens, Faneca, and Dawkins should all have been first-year guys. Instead they've voted in a bunch of marginal cases the last few years (Andre Reed, Jerome Bettis, Morten Anderson).

Next year adds Tony Gonzalez, Ed Reed, and Champ Bailey, who should all go in on the first ballot.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,069
Hingham, MA
5.

My five: Lewis, Moss, Faneca, Hutchinson, Owens. Next two out: Urlacher, Dawkins. The top seven are all no-doubters who should be in eventually. Then there's a whole bunch of borderline guys with interesting cases who could get in in the right year (James, Bruce, Law, Boselli, Lynch, Mawae). But this is not that year.

The backlog is the result of the committee screwing up the previous years. Owens, Faneca, and Dawkins should all have been first-year guys. Instead they've voted in a bunch of marginal cases the last few years (Andre Reed, Jerome Bettis, Morten Anderson).

Next year adds Tony Gonzalez, Ed Reed, and Champ Bailey, who should all go in on the first ballot.
I fully agree with your list of 5 and next 2 out.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
72,567
Ale Xander ballot

Moss
Faneca
Law
Dawkins
Urlacher

Next 2 out
Hutchinson
Owens

F Lewis
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,909
San Andreas Fault
Jerry Kramer just getting in now? I guess being the spokesman for an old great team doesn’t automatically get you in, but 11 years and 5 first team all pro seasons. Wow. It’s like so many of the old Celtics are in the basketball HOF, why not Kramer years ago?