Are The Yankees Really This Good?

patoaflac

Member
SoSH Member
May 6, 2016
2,115
Mexico City
To me pro sports is great when the Yanks, Lakers, Habs, Cowboys, Dolphins(I'm old school) stink!!!
I add Steelers to the list.
Yes the MFY have won the same amount of WS than Marlins, Royals, D-Backs, White Sox and Phillies. In this century there are two excellent teams: Sox and Giants and a very good one Cardinals. That´s why I hate to see the MFY getting close.
 

Orel Miraculous

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2006
1,710
Mostly Airports and Hotels
Everyone step off the ledge:

Gardner .778 (2nd)
Judge 1.049 (1st)
Didi .796 (1st)
Sanchez .876 (2nd)
Bird .710 (n/a)
Castro .792 (1st)
Hicks .847 (1st)
Frazier .788 (4th)
Headley .758 (3rd)

Yes, the Yankees are good. Yes, they will add a marquee free agent or two. NO, they will not continue to get career or near-career years from 78% of their lineup.
 

jaytftwofive

New Member
Jan 20, 2013
1,182
Drexel Hill Pa.
I add Steelers to the list.
Yes the MFY have won the same amount of WS than Marlins, Royals, D-Backs, White Sox and Phillies. In this century there are two excellent teams: Sox and Giants and a very good one Cardinals. That´s why I hate to see the MFY getting close.
Yes Steeler fans are getting arrogant like Yankee and Cowboy fans bragging how many Super Bowls have your team won? That's what they say to Eagles fans here in Philly. They get a lot fans here in the sports bars and it annoys the always friendly Eagles fans, lol. I just flash 4-1 at them. That's the Pats record vs. the Steelers in the playoffs.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
None of those things means "After your insistence that we should give up on Hanley due to his advanced age of 33," but I'm not the least bit surprised you're still arguing against something that wasn't said. It seems to be the only page in your playbook.
I didn't say he was injury prone because he was old, I said he was injury prone, period. He is. That is not an opinion. It is an objective assessment based on the fact that he can't stay on the field. Again, about 121 games per season. That's not a healthy player. That's not someone you count on to avoid injury and play to his full potential.
But again, that's fine. You can platoon him if you want to mitigate that risk, which, again, is not the same as giving up on him.
He averages about 121 games per season. How many games he played last year (while hurt enough to be a mediocre hitter, by the way... he shouldn't have been on the field all year) does not trump the last 7 years.
So Tanaka's a crappy pitcher because he struggled outside of August, but his performance in the post season is... what?
My point is that his post season performance isn't really the outlier. It's the struggles he had this year. He's been a very good pitcher in the previous two years, and was downright nasty his rookie year. What ever caused his struggles (lost his mechanics, injury, tipping pitches, etc) doesn't appear to be bothering him now, so his success shouldn't be all that surprising. And I'd currently take him over every pitcher on the Astros except for Verlander.
Yes, because that's the same thing. You've established that you aren't worth the effort of replying to at this point, so I'm not just done with this conversation. I'm done with you.
Have fun continuing to vomit all over the board.
You asked for proof, I provided it.

I pointed out he's less likely to miss time as a DH, and yet you continue to ignore the fact that he played SS in 2014 and LF in 2015, the latter resulting in a wall-related injury.

Looking back at the past 4 seasons, guess who has missed 26 more games than Hanley? None other than Pedroia. So why aren't you saying the same thing about him? Have you been calling for the Sox to trade Pedroia too, because he's "not a healthy player"? Where does the insanity end?

What is the cause of your tendency to leap to false conclusions based on nothing involving reality? I never said Tanaka is a crappy pitcher, not even close. What I said was his regular season was so poor that his postseason performance has come out of nowhere. And actually this all started because I simply said the Yankees have been beating better teams in the postseason because of Tanaka and Sabathia. The fact that you took exception to my comment is mind boggling to say the least. The Yankees have scored ONE RUN OR LESS in 5 of the 11 games against Cleveland and Houston, so clearly the offense has not been their driving force in this playoff run.

You're saying a 30-game regular season is an "outlier" for Tanaka, but the 3 postseason games in which he pitched like Koufax is not? Seriously? An ERA of 0.90 with a WHIP of 0.61 against two of the best lineups in MLB is NOT an outlier? So you think that's the norm for Tanaka? Really? Do you even realize Tanaka's SO9 this year in the regular season was the highest of his MLB career?

And of course you end your post with a personal insult, so classy. I'm glad you won't be responding to me any more though. Because I'm here to talk baseball, not deal with someone who has anger issues and can't remain focused on the subject without getting personal.
 

Apisith

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2007
3,216
Bangkok
Everyone step off the ledge:

Gardner .778 (2nd)
Judge 1.049 (1st)
Didi .796 (1st)
Sanchez .876 (2nd)
Bird .710 (n/a)
Castro .792 (1st)
Hicks .847 (1st)
Frazier .788 (4th)
Headley .758 (3rd)

Yes, the Yankees are good. Yes, they will add a marquee free agent or two. NO, they will not continue to get career or near-career years from 78% of their lineup.
Gardner may be worse next year, true. But they’ll also have Frazier up. Long term, it’s a worry for us.

Judge and Didi broke out this year but their batted ball stats all support the results. It’s not a fluke.

Sanchez is pretty much a rookie, and in fact his batted ball data would project better results. He’s a masher.

Abbey has a major hard on for Bird but I don’t see why he’s not a .850 OPS guy for the next 3-5 years, health permitting. He’s shown an ability to get on base and hit for power in the minors and majors. This spot will be a huge improvement.

Hicks, I agree with. This was a great year for him and some regression is likely.

Headley will become Torres. Long term, it’s not good for us.

And this is not even considering the mountain of payroll space that they’ll have considering all but 1 of their lineup will be cost controlled. It is a legitimate concern.

Their rotation has some holes and that’s another story but I don’t see how they’re not locked into 3-5 years of an extremely good and powerful offense.
 

streeter88

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 2, 2006
1,807
Melbourne, Australia
Just watched yet another highlight from the ALCS where Sanchez yet again dropped a throw where the runner would have been out. Up thread I have not seen anyone call out suspect defense when comparing him to the Sox catchers. Why not?
 

Apisith

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2007
3,216
Bangkok
He’s a top 10 defensive catcher because he throws well and frames well. The weakness in blocking and dropping a few throws don’t come close to negating his strengths.
 

Apisith

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2007
3,216
Bangkok
Probably because the difference in their defense is <10 runs a year while Sanchez is the best offensive catcher in the game.
 

Murderer's Crow

Dragon Wangler 216
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,544
Garden City

iayork

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 6, 2006
639
Probably because the difference in their defense is <10 runs a year while Sanchez is the best offensive catcher in the game.
Close enough. I have Sánchez as just about neutral for framing (contributing 0.31 extra strikes per game compared to league average - virtually identical to Sandy León), while Vázquez was 6th-best in baseball at 1.36 extra strikes per game. Over the season, Sánchez contributed 28.9 extra strikes, Vázquez 112.8. Each extra strike is worth 0.13-0.14 extra runs; that means Vázquez contributed the equivalent of about 11-12 extra runs over the season from his framing. Of course, Sánchez made up about four times that much from his offense.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
They are just as good or better than the Redsox now with a much better farm system. Who knows how that plays out. They are going to have to make a lot of moves in the next few years to keep everyone on the 40 man. They'll probably have their own 5 prospects for 1 player trade in the next year or two and that takes a huge toll on a farm system.
 

BigMike

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 26, 2000
23,250
They are just as good or better than the Redsox now with a much better farm system. Who knows how that plays out. They are going to have to make a lot of moves in the next few years to keep everyone on the 40 man. They'll probably have their own 5 prospects for 1 player trade in the next year or two and that takes a huge toll on a farm system.
Sure they may. They made a couple of deals this season where they unloaded a group of prospects for big time improvements on the field, and even though they gave away a few guys who had ranked in the top 100 prospects at times this year is barely even dented their system.
 

tonyarmasjr

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2010
1,120
Close enough. I have Sánchez as just about neutral for framing (contributing 0.31 extra strikes per game compared to league average - virtually identical to Sandy León), while Vázquez was 6th-best in baseball at 1.36 extra strikes per game. Over the season, Sánchez contributed 28.9 extra strikes, Vázquez 112.8. Each extra strike is worth 0.13-0.14 extra runs; that means Vázquez contributed the equivalent of about 11-12 extra runs over the season from his framing. Of course, Sánchez made up about four times that much from his offense.
Is Sanchez expected to stick at catcher? He's pretty big for a C, no? And I know the movement behind the plate is weaker than his arm, but I haven't researched scouts' take on him. Do they expect him to be behind the plate for the majority of his career, or is it something where he'll have to move out in 2-3 years?
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,230
Portland
Close enough. I have Sánchez as just about neutral for framing (contributing 0.31 extra strikes per game compared to league average - virtually identical to Sandy León), while Vázquez was 6th-best in baseball at 1.36 extra strikes per game. Over the season, Sánchez contributed 28.9 extra strikes, Vázquez 112.8. Each extra strike is worth 0.13-0.14 extra runs; that means Vázquez contributed the equivalent of about 11-12 extra runs over the season from his framing. Of course, Sánchez made up about four times that much from his offense.
Have you looked at the impact of pitch framing over time? Is the gap narrowing between the best and worst now that this is becoming more of a mainstream stat. I'm wondering if perhaps umpires are wising up to the best framers and trying to be more careful, and the impact will lessen.
 

iayork

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 6, 2006
639
Have you looked at the impact of pitch framing over time? Is the gap narrowing between the best and worst now that this is becoming more of a mainstream stat. I'm wondering if perhaps umpires are wising up to the best framers and trying to be more careful, and the impact will lessen.
You'd think so, but I don't see it. It's all normalized to league average, so I can't tell if the average is getting better, but the range stays roughly constant, with the best and worst about the same distance from the mean each year.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Sure they may. They made a couple of deals this season where they unloaded a group of prospects for big time improvements on the field, and even though they gave away a few guys who had ranked in the top 100 prospects at times this year is barely even dented their system.
None to the level of Sale or Kimbrell. It's not really a may either, they only have 25 and 40 roster spots to work with. There is going to be too much talent to protect.

It doesn't mean they are going to be a juggernaut either though. There will be regression, there will be prospects who fail, there will be injuries. They are set up to win 90+ games for awhile now, however. They are in a better position than the Redsox due to the shape of their farm, but the Redsox position is still pretty good. People probably overstate how much of an advantage that farm system gives the Yankees, but it is an advantage and it's not insignificant. It's just far harder to go from 91 wins to 95 than 81 to 85. Depth only helps if it's in play.
 

ConigsCorner

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2001
557
Denver, CO
While debates like this are an interesting intellectual exercise, there are too many future unknowns and variables to make accurate predictions. See the 1990's Braves, the 1995-2000 Indians, and the 2001-2008 Yanees. Those teams won exactly one World Series championship.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
While debates like this are an interesting intellectual exercise, there are too many future unknowns and variables to make accurate predictions. See the 1990's Braves, the 1995-2000 Indians, and the 2001-2008 Yanees. Those teams won exactly one World Series championship.
100% correct. And there are so many other examples too. A team has some success due mostly to anomalies (ie: Tanaka & Sabathia pitching like Koufax), then people start hyping the team as the one to beat THIS year, and before you know it the bandwagoners are adjusting their opinions yet again based on what just happened rather than all the other factors that they seem to have forgotten.

What's telling is the Yankees scored one run or less in HALF of the games against Cleveland and Houston. They weren't anywhere near the offensive juggernaut that some people claimed. Maybe they will be a year from now, but tonight they are just another overhyped and overanalyzed bunch of guys with Judge doing his best Dave Kingman impersonation, wilting when it mattered the most.

One more example, the 2016 Mets were supposed to dominate for several years because of this "super-rotation", how did that work out for them?

 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,494
Not here
Pissing and moaning about which team is better is generally the province of the team that loses so what's say we don't discuss this ever again eh?
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
100% correct. And there are so many other examples too. A team has some success due mostly to anomalies (ie: Tanaka & Sabathia pitching like Koufax), then people start hyping the team as the one to beat THIS year, and before you know it the bandwagoners are adjusting their opinions yet again based on what just happened rather than all the other factors that they seem to have forgotten.

What's telling is the Yankees scored one run or less in HALF of the games against Cleveland and Houston. They weren't anywhere near the offensive juggernaut that some people claimed. Maybe they will be a year from now, but tonight they are just another overhyped and overanalyzed bunch of guys with Judge doing his best Dave Kingman impersonation, wilting when it mattered the most.

One more example, the 2016 Mets were supposed to dominate for several years because of this "super-rotation", how did that work out for them?
I don't think the Yankees are some super team but I don't know what you have against people adjusting their opinion when a years worth of new data becomes available. I'm guessing you think much higher of Judge now than you did last year. It's ok to change your opinion.

Also worth noting that a team with Judge, Sanchez and 7 league average bats is one of the best offensive teams in baseball. As Redsox fans, we should know first hand how much a bat like David Ortiz can impact the offense. Replace Hanley with Aaron Judge (giving Judge the same amount of PA) and the Redsox overall line goes from .258/.329/.407 to .261/.343/.422. That's one player and 553 PA moving the Redsox total line from a .736 OPS to a .765. OPS is flawed, but using OPS alone, they'd go from 9th worst to 9th best.
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
5,863
Northern Colorado
Wasn't it this time last year the world thought the Cubs were the next juggernaut/dynasty?
The Sox were in the mix, too, with all of their young positional talent and adding Sale. The Nats have been a dynasty in the making the past few years. And who can forget the Mets and their insane, young pitching staff? What about all of Cleveland's talent? And now we can add Houston and the Dodgers to the mix. Hell, Minnesota, Colorado, and Arizona had great years and are stacked with young talent.

Point being, the mfy are good and will be competitive in the coming years, no doubt, but the odds of them winning one title, let alone several, are still long.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
I don't think the Yankees are some super team but I don't know what you have against people adjusting their opinion when a years worth of new data becomes available. I'm guessing you think much higher of Judge now than you did last year. It's ok to change your opinion.

Also worth noting that a team with Judge, Sanchez and 7 league average bats is one of the best offensive teams in baseball. As Redsox fans, we should know first hand how much a bat like David Ortiz can impact the offense. Replace Hanley with Aaron Judge (giving Judge the same amount of PA) and the Redsox overall line goes from .258/.329/.407 to .261/.343/.422. That's one player and 553 PA moving the Redsox total line from a .736 OPS to a .765. OPS is flawed, but using OPS alone, they'd go from 9th worst to 9th best.
I don't have anything against anyone, as everyone is entitled to their opinions and how they choose to arrive at them. It's just hard for me to respect some opinions when they change mid-series based on how momentum swings a certain way. I respect those who can observe and form logical opinions before a series starts, not those who Rosie Ruiz it. And I especially respect those who provide solid reasons to believe victory is still possible even though a team appears to be finished.

Judge is a great example, I'm glad you brought him up. I didn't think he would continue to be as bad as he was last year. And I didn't think he would continue to put up the numbers he had put up in the first half of this year. And I didn't think he'd continue to suck as bad as he did to start the second half of this year. What we saw in the postseason from him is pretty much what I expected, a guy who will crush bad pitches over the plate but who will struggle mightily against quality pitchers when they are on. He'll get his walks and homeruns in the postseason, but I don't see him hitting much for average and he'll probably continue to strikeout at historic levels. But again, here's the thing .... I don't "change my opinion" based on how good or bad he's doing over a short period of time. There's nothing intuitive or horn-tooting-worthy by jumping on bandwagons. I prefer to be proactive, not reactive.

Sure the Yankees offense is good, and will likely get better. But as others have pointed out, stuff happens. Players can come up with chronic nagging injuries, pitchers can exploit a hole in their swing that the hitter is unable to fix, or maybe they just lose their confidence. After a certain number of "can't miss" kids come and go, you tend to take all the hyping and adulation with a grain of salt. If you don't believe me, look up "Phil Plantier" or "Kevin Maas" or "Joe Charboneau".

And actually, I think swapping Judge for Hanley would have increased the Sox OPS even more than what you said. Why? Because the surrounding players in the lineup would also benefit from such an upgrade. Whomever bats in front of him will see better pitches.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I don't have anything against anyone, as everyone is entitled to their opinions and how they choose to arrive at them. It's just hard for me to respect some opinions when they change mid-series based on how momentum swings a certain way. I respect those who can observe and form logical opinions before a series starts, not those who Rosie Ruiz it. And I especially respect those who provide solid reasons to believe victory is still possible even though a team appears to be finished.

Judge is a great example, I'm glad you brought him up. I didn't think he would continue to be as bad as he was last year. And I didn't think he would continue to put up the numbers he had put up in the first half of this year. And I didn't think he'd continue to suck as bad as he did to start the second half of this year. What we saw in the postseason from him is pretty much what I expected, a guy who will crush bad pitches over the plate but who will struggle mightily against quality pitchers when they are on. He'll get his walks and homeruns in the postseason, but I don't see him hitting much for average and he'll probably continue to strikeout at historic levels. But again, here's the thing .... I don't "change my opinion" based on how good or bad he's doing over a short period of time. There's nothing intuitive or horn-tooting-worthy by jumping on bandwagons. I prefer to be proactive, not reactive.

Sure the Yankees offense is good, and will likely get better. But as others have pointed out, stuff happens. Players can come up with chronic nagging injuries, pitchers can exploit a hole in their swing that the hitter is unable to fix, or maybe they just lose their confidence. After a certain number of "can't miss" kids come and go, you tend to take all the hyping and adulation with a grain of salt. If you don't believe me, look up "Phil Plantier" or "Kevin Maas" or "Joe Charboneau".

And actually, I think swapping Judge for Hanley would have increased the Sox OPS even more than what you said. Why? Because the surrounding players in the lineup would also benefit from such an upgrade. Whomever bats in front of him will see better pitches.

You are assuming people are changing their minds based on a series and not the 162 game season that was just played out. I predicted the Yankees had a shot at making the playoffs after the Chapman signing because with 2 wild cards, most teams now have a chance to make the playoffs. Nevermind one with an elite bullpen. And if you make the playoffs, you have a chance to win the World Series.

I personally thought Judge would be more Mark Reynolds or worse. He's not. His floor is much higher than I thought it was, and we saw his ceiling this year. Even if this is his career year, he has a long way to fall. Add in his defense and he's going to be an incredibly valuable player for a long time.
 

Dr Manhattan

New Member
Oct 9, 2017
46
Pissing and moaning about which team is better is generally the province of the team that loses so what's say we don't discuss this ever again eh?
This!
its like we are living in 2003 all over again. Screw the Yankees
oh, and happy YED
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Then again, if you think Judge's true ability is closer to the .188/.316/.500 line he put up in the playoffs, I can see why you'd be sour on the Yankees offense. That's a huge drop off in production though.
 

Wingack

Yankee Mod
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
34,541
In The Quivering Forest
What we saw in the postseason from him is pretty much what I expected, a guy who will crush bad pitches over the plate but who will struggle mightily against quality pitchers when they are on.
Doesn't everyone struggle against quality pitchers when they are on? And Judge had 4 HRs and 11 RBIs this postseason in 13 games. It isn't like he totally disappeared like some players do in the post season.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
You are assuming people are changing their minds based on a series and not the 162 game season that was just played out. I predicted the Yankees had a shot at making the playoffs after the Chapman signing because with 2 wild cards, most teams now have a chance to make the playoffs. Nevermind one with an elite bullpen. And if you make the playoffs, you have a chance to win the World Series.
I personally thought Judge would be more Mark Reynolds or worse. He's not. His floor is much higher than I thought it was, and we saw his ceiling this year. Even if this is his career year, he has a long way to fall. Add in his defense and he's going to be an incredibly valuable player for a long time.
And you made a blatantly false assumption that I'm assuming people are changing their minds based on a series. Look upthread, and you will see that I and others were accused of being "in denial" and "having our head in the sand" about the alleged greatness of the Yankees. After Game 5 I was mocked for stating the Indians and Astros are both better than the Yankees. They specifically stated they had picked the Astros to win BEFORE the series began, and then changed their mind and picked the Yankees to win because they were supposedly the better team ... and this changed opinion of theirs occurred, not coincidentally, AFTER the Yankees won their third straight and was one victory away from going to the World Series. The epitome of frontrunning, the epitome of bandwagon. So no, I did not make an assumption. The proof is upthread.

I have repeatedly stated every team in the ALDS, including the Sox, had a chance to go to the World Series. But I never changed my stance, the Astros and Indians were clearly better than the Yankees. Even with the Encarnacion injury and Kluber's unfortunate and unexpected off the field issues (Tito confirmed it, but Kluber not starting Game 1 was a tipoff) the Tribe still came within one run of sweeping the Yankees. And how great are the 'Stros, beating Severino in Game 6 and then winning Game 7 without even having to use any of their Top 3 pitchers (Verlander, Keuchel, Giles). And the final score of each game wasn't even close.

Judge is way too young to make any predictions on his career at this time. He obviously has a lot of talent, incredible strength, and a good head on his shoulders. But hitters his size have additional challenges, and the jury is still out on whether or not he can successfully meet those challenges. It certainly helped that his breakout season coincided with a record-setting year in MLB for homeruns, which I believe may have something to do with the ball changing ... but that's another subject for another thread.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
Doesn't everyone struggle against quality pitchers when they are on? And Judge had 4 HRs and 11 RBIs this postseason in 13 games. It isn't like he totally disappeared like some players do in the post season.
When Napoli stepped to the plate in the top of the 7th against Verlander in Game 3, the Sox had just 2 singles and Verlander had struck out 8. And Verlander was riding a 33-inning shutout streak. But really good hitters capitalize on mistake pitches, like a hanging curveball or a fastball that's a little too high and gets a little too much of the plate. Napoli saw the latter, and crushed it for the only run of the game.

And when a pitcher makes a good pitch, exactly as he intended, and the hitter still crushes it - that's another sign of a really good hitter. I have yet to see Judge have that kind of a moment.

Well he totally disappeared in the ALDS, going 1-for-20 and breaking an all-time postseason series strikeout record in just 5 games.

And in the ALCS, his team lost 4 games by scoring a combined 3 runs and he went 2-for-15 with just one RBI in those 4 games.

I guess what I'm saying is he under-performed, based on his regular season numbers and MVP consideration and all the hype.
 
Last edited:

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,651
I think people are seeing what they want in Aaron Judge's numbers. He had a good, if not great, postseason. HE was actually really good in the ALCS and one of the reasons the series went to 7 games.

It sucks, but I dont think Judge is going to drop off the face of the Earth over the next few seasons. He doesnt need to be an 8 WAR player to be a foundational piece for the Yankees, and I think we are probably going to see him hit between 35-50 HRs a year for the next few seasons.

This Yankees team is a solid team, but I do expect(hope!) a bit of regression for some of these guys that will help the Sox out next year. Their pitching outside of Severino is a question mark. They will def be in contention, right along with us, over the next few years, but there are other teams in the league assembling pretty stacked rosters as well. The duo of Bregman-Correa is one of the best assemblages of young talent in the league. Crazy to think Correa is only going to be 23 next year.

I think the Sox can compete with the best in the AL, it will just take a bounce back season from Price, a full year of a healthy Carson Smith, and the continued development of Benintendi and Devers. There is a chance that all of Betts, Benintendi, and Devers hit 30+ HRs next year. If we add JD Martinez, that is a pretty potent lineup
 

LostinNJ

New Member
Jul 19, 2005
479
Yes, the Yankees are going to be very good for a while, but there's still a window for this Red Sox team to contend for a championship. In 2017 the Red Sox finished ahead of the Yankees even though a lot of our players had disappointing years and a lot of theirs had career years, or close to it. In 2018 they're probably going to be without Sabathia, who was great this year, and there's every reason to expect a regression by Severino, who threw about 55 more innings this year than he ever has before. Better years by Betts, Bogaerts, and Benintendi, plus a full year of Devers, will help the Red Sox offense, and that's not even counting on any additions or a revival by Hanley.

Another factor is new on-field leadership for the Red Sox. I never disliked Farrell, but I have a lot of confidence in Cora. And he'll almost surely bring in a new coaching staff, which will be a boon to our hitters. I've always admired Chili Davis, but it seemed like he was coaching the hitters to play yesterday's game, which featured plate patience and long at bats, with the goal of getting into the soft underbelly of the other team's bullpen. Now the best teams' bullpens are deep, and the way to win has become to swing aggressively and go for the downs every time. I don't like that game as much, but it seems to be what's working.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,875
Maine
Could you give some hints about this, preferably a link?
Second that. Only thing I can find in a quick google search regarding Kluber's ALDS performance and a possible explanation is speculation that his back, which was an issue early in the year, flared up on him again. No mention of off-the-field issues or personal issues in the piece, which is dated two days ago. One would think if there was an off-field reason for Kluber's struggles, something allegedly confirmed by the manager, an article dedicated to those struggles penned a week after the series ended might mention it.
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,230
Portland
Another factor is new on-field leadership for the Red Sox. I never disliked Farrell, but I have a lot of confidence in Cora. And he'll almost surely bring in a new coaching staff, which will be a boon to our hitters. I've always admired Chili Davis, but it seemed like he was coaching the hitters to play yesterday's game, which featured plate patience and long at bats, with the goal of getting into the soft underbelly of the other team's bullpen. Now the best teams' bullpens are deep, and the way to win has become to swing aggressively and go for the downs every time. I don't like that game as much, but it seems to be what's working.
As to the staff, one team requested permission to speak with Davis, His career didn't really overlap with Cora's (aside from '98 but they didn't play in the same league). He may be gone.

I heard on EEI, that DD was hoping Levangie would be retained. Cora and Levangie were together in Boston in 2007, so I could see him sticking around, maybe even as a future bench coach depending on their relationship.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
Could you give some hints about this, preferably a link?
This is one of 'em.

https://deadspin.com/so-is-corey-kluber-hurt-or-what-1819398125

When asked if Kluber might have been fighting a back problem, Francona replied, “You know what? I think he’s fighting a lot, and I think you also have to respect the fact that the guy wants to go out there and he’s our horse.”

“I don’t think anybody is 100 percent at this point of the year,” Kluber said. “I was good enough to go out there and try to compete. I don’t know if I need to get into the details. I was healthy enough to go out there and try to pitch.”
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,490
Oregon
This is one of 'em.

https://deadspin.com/so-is-corey-kluber-hurt-or-what-1819398125

When asked if Kluber might have been fighting a back problem, Francona replied, “You know what? I think he’s fighting a lot, and I think you also have to respect the fact that the guy wants to go out there and he’s our horse.”

“I don’t think anybody is 100 percent at this point of the year,” Kluber said. “I was good enough to go out there and try to compete. I don’t know if I need to get into the details. I was healthy enough to go out there and try to pitch.”
How does that suggest that Kluber's circumstances were more than injury-related?
 

Wingack

Yankee Mod
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
34,541
In The Quivering Forest
When Napoli stepped to the plate in the top of the 7th against Verlander in Game 3, the Sox had just 2 singles and Verlander had struck out 8. And Verlander was riding a 33-inning shutout streak. But really good hitters capitalize on mistake pitches, like a hanging curveball or a fastball that's a little too high and gets a little too much of the plate. Napoli saw the latter, and crushed it for the only run of the game.
Congratulations to Mike Napoli? I genuinely don't know what you are talking about here. Napoli isn't even on the Red Sox.

And when a pitcher makes a good pitch, exactly as he intended, and the hitter still crushes it - that's another sign of a really good hitter. I have yet to see Judge have that kind of a moment.
He had a huge HR in game 4 in the 7th off of McCullers who had dominated the rest of the lineup the rest of that game and in game 7, running him from the game. He came up the next inning and roped a game tying double, that nearly went out, off of their closer Ken Giles. The next day, he had a huge two run double off of the biggest Yankee killer of them all, Dallas Keuchel, a former Cy Young winner.

All good pitchers, all huge moments for Judge.

You may have missed them though if you were watching taped games of when Mike Napoli was still on the Red Sox.
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,490
Oregon
Congratulations to Mike Napoli? I genuinely don't know what you are talking about here. Napoli isn't even on the Red Sox.



He had a huge HR in game 4 in the 7th off of McCullers who had dominated the rest of the lineup the rest of that game and in game 7, running him from the game. He came up the next inning and roped a game tying double, that nearly went out, off of their closer Ken Giles. The next day, he had a huge two run double off of the biggest Yankee killer of them all, Dallas Keuchel, a former Cy Young winner.

All good pitchers, all huge moments for Judge.

You may have missed them though if you were watching taped games of when Mike Napoli was still on the Red Sox.
He was being vague. I'm guessing he meant in 2013
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,747
Pissing and moaning about which team is better is generally the province of the team that loses so what's say we don't discuss this ever again eh?
You do realize the Yankees Pythag'd that series 4-3, right?

Also, 6-1 in the 1960 WS.
 

Kielty's Last Pitch

New Member
Oct 6, 2017
118
Congratulations to Mike Napoli? I genuinely don't know what you are talking about here. Napoli isn't even on the Red Sox.

He had a huge HR in game 4 in the 7th off of McCullers who had dominated the rest of the lineup the rest of that game and in game 7, running him from the game. He came up the next inning and roped a game tying double, that nearly went out, off of their closer Ken Giles. The next day, he had a huge two run double off of the biggest Yankee killer of them all, Dallas Keuchel, a former Cy Young winner.

All good pitchers, all huge moments for Judge.

You may have missed them though if you were watching taped games of when Mike Napoli was still on the Red Sox.
You had said "doesn't everyone struggle against quality pitchers when they are on?". I used Napoli/Verlander as an example because Verlander was a quality pitcher that was very much "on" that entire postseason, similar to how he is this postseason (not counting his first-ever relief appearance). That homerun was legendary, except of course to Tigers and Yankee fans.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not Judge came up big or underachieved this postseason, as I think we've got different definitions of what is considered big and underachieving. For now his postseason legacy is a historically bad 1-for-20 with 16K's in the ALDS, and 2-for-15 with just one BB and just one RBI in the 4 games they lost to Houston. Not exactly what was expected from him in the postseason.

I watched just about every minute of the ALDS (both) and ALCS, the Napoli homerun has been burned into my memory since Day 1 and isn't going anywhere for a long time. :D
 

Wingack

Yankee Mod
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
34,541
In The Quivering Forest
You had said "doesn't everyone struggle against quality pitchers when they are on?". I used Napoli/Verlander as an example because Verlander was a quality pitcher that was very much "on" that entire postseason, similar to how he is this postseason (not counting his first-ever relief appearance). That homerun was legendary, except of course to Tigers and Yankee fans.
And I informed you that Judge actually did hit some good pitchers this past series.


We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not Judge came up big or underachieved this postseason, as I think we've got different definitions of what is considered big and underachieving. For now his postseason legacy is a historically bad 1-for-20 with 16K's in the ALDS, and 2-for-15 with just one BB and just one RBI in the 4 games they lost to Houston. Not exactly what was expected from him in the postseason
That is some shocking stuff. A team managed to lose in games when their best hitter did nothing. I am not sure why you are laying this all at Judge's feet though. He is also the only reason that the Yankees scored a run in the final two games. No one on the team hit.

I see that others have bowed out of engaging with you in this thread. I shall do the same.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,672
Rogers Park
That's what I meant by off the field issues, an injury as opposed to mechanics etc. I admit my initial response was vague, my apologies.
That is *not* how people use the phrase "off the field issues." It sounded like you were suggesting he was in trouble with the law or something.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,137
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not Judge came up big or underachieved this postseason, as I think we've got different definitions of what is considered big and underachieving. For now his postseason legacy is a historically bad 1-for-20 with 16K's in the ALDS, and 2-for-15 with just one BB and just one RBI in the 4 games they lost to Houston. Not exactly what was expected from him in the postseason.
Um, this conveniently leaves out the four games (out of only 13) where he had 3 HRs and two doubles. You must really be down on Jose Ramirez, another MVP candidate.

Judge led all of MLB in fWAR as a rookie, you can poke holes in that all you like (and there are some legit ones) but mostly it’s wishful thinking, sorry.