Cap Clearing trade?

smastroyin

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Have we determined that we're not sure about whether the S&T gives us greater cap flexibility than simply trading Crowder first and then signing Hayward? If it does, then that's obviously part of the "value" we get in doing the sign and trade (i.e. that avoids the need to make another trade/salary cut).
I believe with the Ingles signing Utah is over the cap. That's why you have to do a S&T if they're the ones providing your trade destination. If you tried to just send Crowder there now, they would have to match salary back, which defeats the purpose.
 

moondog80

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I believe with the Ingles signing Utah is over the cap. That's why you have to do a S&T if they're the ones providing your trade destination. If you tried to just send Crowder there now, they would have to match salary back, which defeats the purpose.

I think the question is if there's an advantage to Boston with the S&T as opposed to trading Crowder to someone other than Utah (for whatever) and then just signing Hayward outright.
 

amfox1

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I believe with the Ingles signing Utah is over the cap. That's why you have to do a S&T if they're the ones providing your trade destination. If you tried to just send Crowder there now, they would have to match salary back, which defeats the purpose.
That's true but incomplete. UTA is over the cap because of the cap hold for Hayward, not because of Ingles. Ingles has agreed to a deal but has not signed it. His cap hold is less than his agreed-upon contract. I do not believe UTA can trade for Crowder separate from Hayward until Hayward's cap hold is renounced. Then, they could trade for Crowder into available cap space and, then, they could could go over the cap to re-sign Ingles.
 

amfox1

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I think the question is if there's an advantage to Boston with the S&T as opposed to trading Crowder to someone other than Utah (for whatever) and then just signing Hayward outright.
There is an $815,615 advantage to the sign-and-trade, because Hayward's contract would count as one of the 12 salary spots. However, trading Crowder to someone other than UTA is likely to free up more cap space than needed, so BOS could go either way and take the best deal.
 

Captaincoop

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Then wouldn't you give away 1 year of Bradley before giving away 3 years of Crowder?
First, IMHO Bradley is a way better player than Crowder.

Second, if you give away Bradley right now, you're down to three starters, and now need to find a starting-caliber 2 and 4/5 before the start of the season. In an ideal world, you move Crowder for a big who can start or at least play decent minutes. Otherwise hopefully you can use an exception after the Hayward signing to sign a veteran big.

This was an ECF team last year, I don't think Danny wants to go into this year with a completely imbalanced roster and guys being asked to do things they're not capable of for long stretches of games. They've passed that point in the rebuild with the Hayward signing.
 

benhogan

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Unless he is demanding a trade (Jae doesn't really hold back from Twitter, so I'm not assuming any kind of demand) why deal Crowder in a S&T?

Position crowding? Nonsense... Crowder is a 6'6" powerful wing that can play D, shoot a 3 and has played the 2-4. Hell, start him at the 4 if 'starting' is a big deal to him, he'll get 30 mins a night on this team.

AB is the guy to go, love him but he's the most expensive, 1yr left, has grumbled a little about pay in the past so he'll want his 'payday', on the small side and somewhat fragile. Plus he has a huge defensive rep (overrated IMHO), can shoot the 3 (40%), has a little more star power then Smart/Crowder and may get something back in a deal.

I could see Marcus re-signing at a discounted rate down the road. I have zero proof of this, but Ainge could start talking extension with his agent right now. Just a hunch Danny might use this moment to see which guys want to give up some $$$ to win with the Celtics.
 

Devizier

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I suspect Crowder has quietly demanded he be traded. He didn't seem to happy when there were trade rumors around Butler and other wings during the seasons, and it will be tough for him to have the same role with all those wings.
This has been my thought since it was announced that Hayward was coming to Boston. Crowder has been not too quietly unhappy with his contract and was pretty displeased when Celtics fans were rooting for Hayward when Utah played in Boston last season. Trading Crowder gives him the chance to continue establishing himself as a starter in the league, with an eye on his next contract.

I was expecting something like Chicago or LAC for a TPE and scraps, so this isn't a whole lot different (and much easier to execute).
 

BigSoxFan

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First, IMHO Bradley is a way better player than Crowder.

Second, if you give away Bradley right now, you're down to three starters, and now need to find a starting-caliber 2 and 4/5 before the start of the season. In an ideal world, you move Crowder for a big who can start or at least play decent minutes. Otherwise hopefully you can use an exception after the Hayward signing to sign a veteran big.

This was an ECF team last year, I don't think Danny wants to go into this year with a completely imbalanced roster and guys being asked to do things they're not capable of for long stretches of games. They've passed that point in the rebuild with the Hayward signing.
We must not be watching the same guys because there is no way I call Bradley "way better" than Crowder. And I certainly would want Crowder's 3 years of control over 1 year of Bradley. The latter is an absolute goner after this year. Zero chance he's on the 2018-2019 team.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I think one issue that is cropping up here and elsewhere is that it is very easy to say in a vacuum "there are plenty of teams that would want Bradley" but much harder to identify a team that (a) thinks Bradley would fit their team; (b) has at least $8.8m of cap space to absorb Bradley that they wouldn't rather use elsewhere; (c) will be competitive enough this year that they would want Bradley now as opposed to just waiting to sign him next year; and (d) has a piece or pieces that would trump whatever Utah is offering.

It's possible there is a team out there that fits all four criteria but it's not a certainty and I have to imagine Danny has talked to every such team where that is a possibility (and as I noted earlier it gets even harder if they don't want to trade within their division or to a team such as LA or Sacramento that they have no interest in improving).
 

cheech13

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If you are thinking that Boston is going to get a good return, please find me a team that satisfies each of the following criteria:

1. Has the required cap space/trade exception/non-guaranteed contracts to take back Crowder, Smart or Bradley without sending back guaranteed salary
2. Has the clear and present need to upgrade today by acquiring Crowder, Smart or Bradley
3. Has the trade asset or young player that they'd be willing to give up in said deal

I can't seem to find a team that can both absorb a contract and send back something interesting (say an extra lottery-protected pick). That's why this is dragging out and it's why the return is going to be disappointing to those who are expecting something good.
 

amfox1

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Yeah I think the real problem here is just that there are not that many viable trading partners. To clear cap space you need to trade to a team with cap room to absorb one of the contracts, so that right there already cuts by around half your possible trading partners.
Teams with no cap room: CHA, CLE, DET, GS, HOU, LAC, MEM, MIL, NO, OKC, POR, TOR, WAS (assumes match for Porter)

Not going to trade with (future draft picks): BRK, LAL, PHI, SAC

Teams with cap room but no fit for Crowder: DAL, MIN, NYK, ORL, SA

Sign-and-trade only: UTA

Possible fits for Crowder: ATL, CHI, DEN, IND, MIA, PHX

I come up with seven possible trade partners for Crowder. There may be more or less for Bradley/Smart.
 

Red Averages

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DL 2931 is scheduled to arrive in BOS around 5pm ET. Would expect to start hearing things soon thereafter on a possible trade.
Why is Stevens in Boston this significant? The summer league picks up in a few days in Vegas, doesn't he live in MA now?
 

cheech13

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Possible fits for Crowder: ATL, CHI, DEN, IND, MIA, PHX

I come up with seven possible trade partners for Crowder. There may be more or less for Bradley/Smart.
Four of those teams are rebuilding and have no reason to acquire role players. That leaves Miami and Denver as possible fits. Miami is already out future picks to Phoenix from the Dragic trade. They could also just sign Gay with cap space, so that doesn't work. Denver... maybe? They have Barton and Chandler so Crowder is kind of redundant. They have their own first this year and some extra second rounders. Not a great match but I guess it's possible.

One or two teams does not make a market, again showing there isn't going to be a great offer out there.
 

smastroyin

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Here are some advanced stat lines.

VORP: 2.8, BPM 2.8, WS 7.3, PER 15.8 Net On/Off +3.4, RPM 3.00 (9.28 wins)
VORP: 2.1, BPM 1.6, WS 6.7, PER 14.9, Net On/Off +11.5, RPM 3.89 (10.52 wins)

VORP: 1.4, BPM 0.2, WS 4.8, PER 13.2 , Net On/Off +3.3, RPM 0.08 (5.23 wins)
VORP: 0.7, BPM -0.5, WS 3.1, PER 14.4, Net On/Off -3.2, RPM -2.16 (1.13 wins)
VORP: 4.0, BPM 4.2, WS 10.4, PER 22.2, Net On/Off +5.7, RPM 3.06 (9.45 wins)

Probably obvious, but:
Crowder 2015, Crowder 2016, AB 2015, AB 2016, Hayward 2016

Two things. First, there is literally zero evidence that Bradley is a better overall player than Crowder in terms of what they have done on the court over the last two years for the Boston Celtics. And no, it's not all tied up in his injury time missed. You can say that true wings have a better time in the NBA and Bradley is more like a combo guard and that's fine. but that's all included in value, even if it's not Bradley's "fault"

Second, Hayward is clearly better...but not so much better than Crowder that we can sit around screaming in glee about getting Hayward for "free," if indeed Crowder is the sacrifice to clear cap space. Crowder plays good defense, spaces the floor, and doesn't turn the ball over. These are things that everyone misses when they just caterwaul about missed 3's or whines when he's getting steamrolled by LeBron, and they have what are tangible effects on the Celtics results.

Now, I said elsewhere the IT injury probably means that you need to work harder to keep competent guards around, and I mean it. But celebrating losing Crowder or thinking it's NBD flies in the face of any serious look at what has made the Celtics successful.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Yeah I could see Denver possibly being interested in Bradley too. But I am sure that if posters on this board have identified these possibilities so has Ainge and he has explored them in depth.
 

Captaincoop

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Teams with no cap room: CHA, CLE, DET, GS, HOU, LAC, MEM, MIL, NO, OKC, POR, TOR, WAS (assumes match for Porter)

Not going to trade with (future draft picks): BRK, LAL, PHI, SAC

Teams with cap room but no fit for Crowder: DAL, MIN, NYK, ORL, SA

Sign-and-trade only: UTA

Possible fits for Crowder: ATL, CHI, DEN, IND, MIA, PHX

I come up with seven possible trade partners for Crowder. There may be more or less for Bradley/Smart.

I don't think there's any reason the Celtics wouldn't trade with these four teams. This is Jae Crowder we're talking about, not Lebron. The difference gained in a trade centered on Crowder is not changing any of their fortunes in any significant way.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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I think Denver's a solid fit, and that they'd clearly prefer Crowder to Chandler -- or at least, prefer the certainty of his contract.

That said, they're not gonna give up much. C's just don't have a ton of leverage here. Maaaaybe with Millsap in place they are willing to move Lyles, but I think most teams are going to stare down Ainge until he accepts a highly protected first that likely conveys as a second.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Yeah I could see Denver possibly being interested in Bradley too. But I am sure that if posters on this board have identified these possibilities so has Ainge and he has explored them in depth.
Bradley's not a fit there. Firstly, they have plenty of guard depth. Harris, Murray, Barton, Mudiay and Beasley will all see minutes.

But more importantly, they really need to keep their payroll down. They've got a certain max upcoming in Jokic, a near max next season in Harris, and Murray a few years down the road. Not the sort of team that's interested in paying Bradley.
 

benhogan

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Teams with no cap room: CHA, CLE, DET, GS, HOU, LAC, MEM, MIL, NO, OKC, POR, TOR, WAS (assumes match for Porter)

Not going to trade with (future draft picks): BRK, LAL, PHI, SAC

Teams with cap room but no fit for Crowder: DAL, MIN, NYK, ORL, SA

Sign-and-trade only: UTA

Possible fits for Crowder: ATL, CHI, DEN, IND, MIA, PHX

I come up with seven possible trade partners for Crowder. There may be more or less for Bradley/Smart.
That's great thanks.

We can always attach 1st round picks to attain the players we need/want from a team with cap room that's rebuilding and wants to wait till next season to bid for talent (AB expiring contract may be attractive in that situation).

Bigs that are interesting from teams with cap room (not suggesting they are on the block): O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Portis, Holmes, Bertens, Nance Jr, Dedmon, WCS
 
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amfox1

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I don't think there's any reason the Celtics wouldn't trade with these four teams. This is Jae Crowder we're talking about, not Lebron. The difference gained in a trade centered on Crowder is not changing any of their fortunes in any significant way.
Basically, you are arguing that Crowder has little value and therefore BOS should not be expecting much back. So, why trade with these teams?
 

the moops

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Four of those teams are rebuilding and have no reason to acquire role players. That leaves Miami and Denver as possible fits. Miami is already out future picks to Phoenix from the Dragic trade. They could also just sign Gay with cap space, so that doesn't work. Denver... maybe? They have Barton and Chandler so Crowder is kind of redundant. They have their own first this year and some extra second rounders. Not a great match but I guess it's possible.

One or two teams does not make a market, again showing there isn't going to be a great offer out there.
.

I don't know. We see rebuilding teams do all sorts of puzzling things to stay relevant and appease their fanbase. Sacramento just dishes out way too much money for two vets. Indiana trades George for a lousy return. Etc

Rebuilding teams would love to have Jae Crowder on a three year cheap deal. Rebuilding teams may also have interest in Smart and his one year deal with having the RFA tag to detemine if they want to resign
 

Captaincoop

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Here are some advanced stat lines.

VORP: 2.8, BPM 2.8, WS 7.3, PER 15.8 Net On/Off +3.4, RPM 3.00 (9.28 wins)
VORP: 2.1, BPM 1.6, WS 6.7, PER 14.9, Net On/Off +11.5, RPM 3.89 (10.52 wins)

VORP: 1.4, BPM 0.2, WS 4.8, PER 13.2 , Net On/Off +3.3, RPM 0.08 (5.23 wins)
VORP: 0.7, BPM -0.5, WS 3.1, PER 14.4, Net On/Off -3.2, RPM -2.16 (1.13 wins)
VORP: 4.0, BPM 4.2, WS 10.4, PER 22.2, Net On/Off +5.7, RPM 3.06 (9.45 wins)

Probably obvious, but:
Crowder 2015, Crowder 2016, AB 2015, AB 2016, Hayward 2016

Two things. First, there is literally zero evidence that Bradley is a better overall player than Crowder in terms of what they have done on the court over the last two years for the Boston Celtics. And no, it's not all tied up in his injury time missed. You can say that true wings have a better time in the NBA and Bradley is more like a combo guard and that's fine. but that's all included in value, even if it's not Bradley's "fault"

Second, Hayward is clearly better...but not so much better than Crowder that we can sit around screaming in glee about getting Hayward for "free," if indeed Crowder is the sacrifice to clear cap space. Crowder plays good defense, spaces the floor, and doesn't turn the ball over. These are things that everyone misses when they just caterwaul about missed 3's or whines when he's getting steamrolled by LeBron, and they have what are tangible effects on the Celtics results.

Now, I said elsewhere the IT injury probably means that you need to work harder to keep competent guards around, and I mean it. But celebrating losing Crowder or thinking it's NBD flies in the face of any serious look at what has made the Celtics successful.
Huh. Zero evidence?

Avery missed a ton of time, and it's not like you can write off his durability, but he's one of the absolute best on-ball defenders in the NBA, and is a better scorer than Crowder.

Crowder has become a terrificly overrated defender and we'll see if he can maintain his huge one-year improvement in three-point shooting or if it was an outlier. He's a nice player, mostly because he comes so cheap, but Hayward is a massive upgrade at his spot.
 

Captaincoop

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Maybe, but then that is a reason that none of those teams would give up anything for Crowder, so it ends up being the same result.
We're talking about the difference between getting 60 cents on the dollar for Crowder, or 20 cents on the dollar. I'm surprised some team isn't willing to make that move, but apparently there is little market for him.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Bradley's not a fit there. Firstly, they have plenty of guard depth. Harris, Murray, Barton, Mudiay and Beasley will all see minutes.

But more importantly, they really need to keep their payroll down. They've got a certain max upcoming in Jokic, a near max next season in Harris, and Murray a few years down the road. Not the sort of team that's interested in paying Bradley.
I wasn't suggesting the Nuggets would re-sign Bradley after this year - he is an expiring contract so they could use him this year and then let him go and still do all the things you mention.

I take your point re: the crowded backcourt, however - Nuggets would probably have to be considering moving other guards to make room for Bradley.
 

Auger34

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Adam Kaufman‏ @AdamMKaufman 12m12 minutes ago
Terry Rozier may be on the move, which is expected as a cap-clearing maneuver for #Celtics. (H/t @patmyers823)
If this is true (and the supposed tweet by Rozier makes it seem like it would be true) I think reports of Crowder being the one traded were wrong. Probably going through with the suggestion of @dangercart on twitter. Moving Demetrius Jackson and Terry Rozier for Hayward and waiving Mickey. That way they can keep all 3 of Smart, Crowder, and Bradley
 

RedOctober3829

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If this is true (and the supposed tweet by Rozier makes it seem like it would be true) I think reports of Crowder being the one traded were wrong. Probably going through with the suggestion of @dangercart on twitter. Moving Demetrius Jackson and Terry Rozier for Hayward and waiving Mickey. That way they can keep all 3 of Smart, Crowder, and Bradley
That's the smartest thing to do IMO. It creates more leverage in trade talks for the Celtics for any of those 3. I don't want to lose Rozier but it makes sense.
 

TheDeuce222

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If this is true (and the supposed tweet by Rozier makes it seem like it would be true) I think reports of Crowder being the one traded were wrong. Probably going through with the suggestion of @dangercart on twitter. Moving Demetrius Jackson and Terry Rozier for Hayward and waiving Mickey. That way they can keep all 3 of Smart, Crowder, and Bradley
Bernardoni has since tweeted that he was incorrect and this is not possible. If Rozier is the only rotation player getting traded, either Hayward has agreed to take less, or he's being traded with one of the three.



 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Bernardoni has since tweeted that he was incorrect and this is not possible. If Rozier is the only rotation player getting traded, either Hayward has agreed to take less, or he's being traded with one of the three.



"League treats incomplete roster charges the same for signings and trades."

@smastroyin' - I guess the league is smarter than I thought. Good catch!
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One other thing. This was posted by Dejesus on page 5, but according to Keith Smith, KO has not been renounced yet; his QO offer has been rescinded. I suspect that is correct as DA would renounce KO immediately prior to signing Hayward.


"Also, according to the transaction wire, the Celtics rescinded Kelly Olynyk's qualifying offer, but did NOT renounce him. This is important."
 

djbayko

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The funny thing is we all killed Pritchard for getting such a crappy return for George because he wanted him out of the East, and I bet Danny is having the same exact thought with Jae. The thought of giving away Crowder, especially on that contract, must be killing him, and then add in the thought of facing him multiple times a season. Ugh.
I'm not really losing at sleep over this part of a possible S&T.

He's a fine player. We will play against several fine players every game.
 

moly99

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Stupid question, but why would they fly coach on Delta when Jet Blue is their "official airline partner" and would let them fly first/business class for free?
 

mt8thsw9th

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Stupid question, but why would they fly coach on Delta when Jet Blue is their "official airline partner" and would let them fly first/business class for free?
There is no "business class" on that route to Boston on JetBlue. And "official partner" is just a marketing thing.
 

soxfan121

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I was initially confused as to which piece of information I was supposed to focus on. From amfox I guess that it's that DL 2931 is a flight to Boston arriving at 5:00PM, not the other stuff.
Personally, I'm hoping Brad's trip to the restroom went well.
 

benhogan

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Stupid question, but why would they fly coach on Delta when Jet Blue is their "official airline partner" and would let them fly first/business class for free?
Why would he waste his time with those airlines when he can fly SOUTHWEST? They treat you better!
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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One other thing. This was posted by Dejesus on page 5, but according to Keith Smith, KO has not been renounced yet; his QO offer has been rescinded. I suspect that is correct as DA would renounce KO immediately prior to signing Hayward.


"Also, according to the transaction wire, the Celtics rescinded Kelly Olynyk's qualifying offer, but did NOT renounce him. This is important."
This article says they have renounced him. Not sure who's right here or if it's just a matter of poor choice of words by the author.

https://www.netsdaily.com/2017/7/5/15924404/amick-nets-among-four-teams-coming-on-strong-for-olynyk