Carter Capps is a big fat cheater who cheats
- Thread starter Darnell's Son
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To be fair, Capps plays in San Diego. There's a fair chance no one at MLB has seen his new delivery yet.
mlbtr:
And, the league made an addition to Rule 5.07, which seems to carry a direct correlation to Carter Capps’ unorthodox and controversial delivery.
Per the league’s announcement, the rule now “stipulates that a player may not take a second step toward home plate with either foot or otherwise reset his pivot foot in his delivery of the pitch.” Doing so with the bases empty will result in an illegal pitch, while doing so with runners aboard will result in a balk.
As Dennis Lin of the San Diego Union-Tribune reports (Twitter links), Capps’ “hop-drag” delivery has been interpreted consistently by the league in recent years. Today’s rule change was a formalization of that interpretation. MLB.com’s A.J. Cassavell tweetsthat the team (and, based on Lin’s tweets, the league) interpret this to mean that Capps can legally drag his foot during his delivery so long as he does not pick the foot up and reset it.
And, the league made an addition to Rule 5.07, which seems to carry a direct correlation to Carter Capps’ unorthodox and controversial delivery.
Per the league’s announcement, the rule now “stipulates that a player may not take a second step toward home plate with either foot or otherwise reset his pivot foot in his delivery of the pitch.” Doing so with the bases empty will result in an illegal pitch, while doing so with runners aboard will result in a balk.
As Dennis Lin of the San Diego Union-Tribune reports (Twitter links), Capps’ “hop-drag” delivery has been interpreted consistently by the league in recent years. Today’s rule change was a formalization of that interpretation. MLB.com’s A.J. Cassavell tweetsthat the team (and, based on Lin’s tweets, the league) interpret this to mean that Capps can legally drag his foot during his delivery so long as he does not pick the foot up and reset it.
The video in my article (Tweeted by the Padres) clearly shows a hop, so it's not just a drag.
The delivery was never "illegal" per se - but now it's a balk. It may also apply to Jordan Walden.
I don't understand why MLB is allowing the hop in the first place, but that clip seems less egregious than the one posted previously in the thread. I wonder how long it will take for other pitchers to start trying the same motion. You'd have to think anyone who is on the bubble would be open to giving it a try.
Edit: random capitalization error
Edit: random capitalization error
This is his old motion that they determined is legal. He "drags" his foot the entire time, and there is no second hop
In terms of physics, how does that advantage him? I get it must throw of the hitters' timing, but is there another reason he uses it?
The main issue is that his release point is unfairly closer to the plate. It may not seem like much, but even small fractions of a second are a big deal.
A huge deal, I'm sure it's been studied somewhere but David Robertson has a longer stride than anyone and that effectively adds about 2 MPH to his velocity (shorter reaction time), so I'd think this would add 5-6 MPH at least to Capps.
OK, here you go:
"According to Baseball Savant, Capps’ forward extension effectively adds 3.6 miles per hour to his fastball. His fastball already clocks in around the upper 90s. No other pitcher has such a positive difference between actual velocity and perceived velocity. Tyler Glasnow, at +3.0, is the only pitcher within one tick. Capps’ fastball becomes completely terrifying."
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/carter-capps-delivery-is-new-still-basically-against-the-rules/
"According to Baseball Savant, Capps’ forward extension effectively adds 3.6 miles per hour to his fastball. His fastball already clocks in around the upper 90s. No other pitcher has such a positive difference between actual velocity and perceived velocity. Tyler Glasnow, at +3.0, is the only pitcher within one tick. Capps’ fastball becomes completely terrifying."
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/carter-capps-delivery-is-new-still-basically-against-the-rules/
You are correct about eliminating the second hop, but he clearly hops once before dragging his foot. (He'll, it's how he gets the momentum for the drag.).
I have no idea why MLB doesn't just ban his delivery. It's an obvious gimmick being used by a guy who can't make it on his own stuff.
In summary, Carter Capps needs to get the hell off my lawn.
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That's crazy. Robertson is like 5'11; he must be insanely flexible to outstride guys 6'6 and up.
Manute Bol's leg length was almost five feet, inseam to cuff. Assuming a 45 degree angle on leg spread, that's about a 7 foot stride and coupled his arm length and with Capp's hop-drag it would cut down reaction time for a batter quite a bit (if Bol could have pitched). It should be banned outright.
This.
Robertson has a crazy stride, so did Lincecum (who is listed at 5'11, and I think that might be generous). Aroldis Chapman is much taller than either of them at 6'4", but also has an extremely long stride (comparison here in the first article, care of Snod) - 120% of his height, on average.
The fundamental difference in that comparison, which seems obvious to say, is that Chapman's flexibility enables him to have a closer release point, and thus a higher perceived velocity. He uses mechanics in order to maximize the effect of an already great fastball, and does so while pushing off the actual rubber. Lincecum leveraged that same flexibility/mechanical advantage, albeit out of a much smaller frame.
Capps very clearly does not do that. His delivery manipulates the very dimensions of the game of baseball.
This is what I don't get. Why doesn't he just keep "dragging" until he's even closer?
He can't drag it an infinite distance. He is pushing off the rubber and jumping as far as he can with his back foot just barely touching the ground. At the point where it comes down he pushes a 2nd time, much closer to home plate.
His foot isn't staying on the ground, though. It hasn't for a couple of years now.
Here he is from before his TJ surgery in 2015. His foot very clearly lands just before the gif pauses to highlight the ball finally moving from behind his back.
And here's another angle from that season. There is no indication that his toe is dragging across the dirt.
In 2013 and 2014 his foot was staying in contact with the mound. But by 2015 he'd given up any pretense of doing that.
These gifs were pulled from the first Carter Capps piece on the dot com which can be found here.
I honestly don't see how MLB is going to continue to let this go unregulated. He's clearly cheating.
Because pro sports leagues in the US always treat everything fairly.
Remind me what they did to the Cardinals for the computer thing and to the Padres for their "issues"?
I like Capps' idiosyncratic hop step because it's an interesting example of gaming the rules. (I'm referring to the earlier rule and the legal version of his delivery.) It's like Belichick taking maximum advantage of NFL rules, but on an individual level. And the MLB changing the rule to rein in Capps is a No Fun League response. If Capps was obtaining outlier results or a lot of other pitchers started doing the same thing, I could understand a rule change, but this seems to me like banning side arm deliveries or the dumb rule requiring an ambidextrous pitcher to declare which hand he'll throw the ball with.
This rule seems to be necessary, otherwise once a switch hitter comes up against someone like Venditte, both will keep switching and switching, like this in the minors:
The problem is he is getting outlier results because his perceived velocity is way up compared to most, because he's releasing closer to the plate than everyone else.
As usual, you show us that you don't read the thread (discussion about perceived velocity above!) and make statements with no common sense, like the ambidextrous pitcher rule.
As usual?
Capps's 98 mph fastball is not an outlier. In 2014, the average MLB fastball was 92 mph. [Edited to correct mph and for clarity.]
There are two solutions to the rare problem that arises when an ambidextrous pitcher faces a switch hitter.
1. Require the batter to stay in the box he first enters, for at least one pitch or the entire at bat.
2. Require the pitcher to declare beforehand whether he'll use his left or right hand to throw the ball.
The first solution is more "elegant" because it doesn't even require a rule change. Umpires can simply decline to grant a batter time out to switch batters boxes.
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Okay. I'll play along. What's the outlier? His "perceived" velocity? That's not an outlier either.
While you're at it, why is changing pitching rules to require a pitcher to declare handedness so obviously superior to simply requiring batters to stay in the batters box they enter during an at bat?
I have no bones in this internet dog-fight... but if left handed pitcher A comes in to face Switch Hitting batter X. Pitcher A 'comes up lame' after throwing 1 pitch. The A team brings in right handed specialist Brad Chadford. X cannot switch sides because they entered the right handed box to start the at bat.
Read, learn
Article is a year old though:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2016/4/12/11401508/statcast-data-perceived-velocity-vs-actual-velocity
Article is a year old though:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2016/4/12/11401508/statcast-data-perceived-velocity-vs-actual-velocity
Capps's "velo margin" is an outlier? Is that your point? If so, okay, conceded. I'd have thought that goes without saying considering his unusual delivery.
My point is Capp's fastball velocity, actual and perceived, is high, but not an outlier. He has developed a unique motion to that makes his fastball seem even faster. The legal version of his delivery -- the one where he slides his foot but it never leaves the ground -- is clever. It's also fun to watch and discuss. As I mentioned before, I like players and coaches (Belichick is a great example of this) who think "outside the box" to obtain a LEGAL advantage. It makes games more interesting. Conversely, I don't like it when opposing teams whine for rule changes or leagues "clamp down" on innovators. If Capps's "unfair advantage" were easy to obtain, more pitchers would do it. I like idiosyncrasy. You don't. You're entitled to your opinion.
My point is Capp's fastball velocity, actual and perceived, is high, but not an outlier. He has developed a unique motion to that makes his fastball seem even faster. The legal version of his delivery -- the one where he slides his foot but it never leaves the ground -- is clever. It's also fun to watch and discuss. As I mentioned before, I like players and coaches (Belichick is a great example of this) who think "outside the box" to obtain a LEGAL advantage. It makes games more interesting. Conversely, I don't like it when opposing teams whine for rule changes or leagues "clamp down" on innovators. If Capps's "unfair advantage" were easy to obtain, more pitchers would do it. I like idiosyncrasy. You don't. You're entitled to your opinion.
Tangenital, and something we all already know, but nice article (and graphics) by the Seattle times laying out just how little time you have to decide whether to swing given a 100mph fastball. A delivery like Capps' reduces that time even further.
http://projects.seattletimes.com/2017/mariners-preview/science
http://projects.seattletimes.com/2017/mariners-preview/science
It points out that Capps' hop-and-drag delivery cut down on the time HIS pitches take to reach the batter. As I tried to point out before, a pitcher with a natural long stride and long arms could get this with a normal delivery.
What the article does point out is that baseball is approaching a time when an adjustment will have to be made in the distance from rubber to plate so batters can still actually hit. What if a pitcher like Aroldis Chapman were to suddenly master the hop-and-drag? Or excellent athletes over 7' tall took up baseball instead of basketball?
I don't know how many here remember Eddie Feigner...The King and His Court (pitcher, catcher, first baseman, and shortstop), who played exhibition fast-pitch softball games against local teams. He was clocked at 104-mph at a pitching distance about two-thirds that of baseball.
I basically agree with this idea
I mean, I think this would largely be solved by the umpires strictly calling the rule-book rule (i.e., call an illegal pitch every time his toe comes even slightly off the dirt during the drag) - it seems like he doesn't really have it reliable enough to succeed if that's called properly.
but I also enjoy knuckleballs, eephus pitches, and outfielders coming in to pitch, so I recognize that I'm not necessarily in the majority here
I know he claimed that (and similar claims were made about Ty Stoffler), but I'd love to see any evidence of it. I suspect that with these old softball claims, they're conflating measured speed with "adjusted for MLB distance" speeds.
The top male fastpitch softball pitchers (guys like Adam Folkard) top out around the mid-80s with modern radar guns. Mike Piechnik, who was such a standout that he earned a tryout with the Royals, threw his fastball 79-80 mph.
What I saw said his speed was clocked at 104 mph but assuming for the sake of this discussion that it was "adjusted" we are still left with a fast pitch thrown at a much shorter distance than in baseball. From what I found, common distances for fast-pitch softball were 60' base paths and a 46' distance from the front of the rubber to the apex (rear) of home plate (which extends 17" towards the mound). A fast-pitch pitcher releases the ball when it brushes against his leg as he strides towards home plate. Since it is on the same side as his pitching hand, he would only gain about one foot. To simplify things. let's call it 30" from release to the front of the plate, or a pitch of 43.5'. An 80-mph pitch would take ~371 msecs to reach the front of the plate (assuming no friction, etc.). Taking the traditional 55' for baseball, that amount of time would be equivalent to a 101-mph fastball.
This in within the ballpark of what you were saying but it also shows what happens when you cut down on the time you have to react to a pitch. I was a pretty good hitter when I was younger, baseball and some fast pitch. Then I ran into an old Navy Chief on a base I was at in Europe...fast pitch. I couldn't even take a full swing against him. A few months later, they selected an All-Star team from my base to play against and All-Star team made of from several other bases. He pitched both ends of the double header and gave up one hit. I watched some guy hit a home run off him, completely over the light standard in center field. I was flabbergasted...then I learned that kid had a minor league contract waiting for him when he finished his tour. I was still flabbergasted.