CB Sherman Watch: BB No Longer Interested?

Ralphwiggum

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BB doesn't have an issue with players having a fierce desire to win... didn't we see Brady and O'Brien jawing at each other a few times? As far as I can guess Sherman lost confidence in the coaching staff when they screwed up the Superbowl. I don't think he comes to NE, but if he did he'd have no issues fitting in.
If he lost confidence in Carroll after the SB when it isn't clear Carroll screwed anything up, would he have also lost confidence in BB in the same game circumstances for not calling the timeout? Or for any of the other seemingly unconventional things BB does, most of which turn out to be the "right" thing, but many of which don't actually work out?

I generally like Sherman as both a player and a personality, but IMO calling out coaches that way is the third rail, although in BB we trust and all of that.

I agree he's not coming to the Pats, though.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I think you are looking at the situation on the field/locker room as the driving force behind a move off Sherman. Every team would want an overpay for its auction - the problem in Seattle is the entire league knows they've got serious cap issues. The players they have coming due for money in the next 2 years is also pretty much a list of their best players. They had little to no offensive line late in the season last year because they gambled there financially thinking Wilson's mobility would cover for limitations. They need line help, they are in an impending financial jam, the league knows selling Sherman and drafting his replacement in a supposedly heavy CB draft is in of their few moves. I think they have little leverage in selling off Sherman in that environment - unless a GM on the hot seat panics and overpays. It won't be BB overpaying - but if no one is overpaying then maybe BB/NEP would be showing real interest.
I think this is spot on. Much like white WRs in New England, Carroll thinks his scheme can make average corners good. With the success corners have had there - and reversion to pumpkins after leaving - it's hard to argue.
 

DourDoerr

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Well, it sounds like it's dead, but when talks were still ongoing, I was wondering if Sherman would eventually convert to safety when he loses a step or two and extend his career like Lott, Woodson, McCourty, etc. Given his size and smarts, he'd seem an ideal candidate. We might see him here down the road yet - particularly if he's a BB pinky.

As a major NFL personality and talent in his prime, it'd be as weird to see him in a Pats uni as it was to see Moss. If he bought in, I'd guess his jersey would be a Top Seller again with a whole new fan base ready to spend and his diehard fans embracing the opportunity to get different gear. Surprisingly, he wasn't among the Top 25 selling jerseys last year according to NFL Shop. Defensive players aren't nearly as popular as Von Miller was the best seller and he was at #11. Sherman, however, was a top 5 selling jersey for defenders.
 

RetractableRoof

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If he lost confidence in Carroll after the SB when it isn't clear Carroll screwed anything up, would he have also lost confidence in BB in the same game circumstances for not calling the timeout? Or for any of the other seemingly unconventional things BB does, most of which turn out to be the "right" thing, but many of which don't actually work out?

I generally like Sherman as both a player and a personality, but IMO calling out coaches that way is the third rail, although in BB we trust and all of that.

I agree he's not coming to the Pats, though.
Corey Dillon was considered a trouble maker for calling out the coaches in Cincinnati when he was tired of losing, I believe that a decent portion of the Moss baggage was related to him being in a losing situation. I'm just saying that BB doesn't seem to view a fierce desire to win as a negative - if the talent to back up the desire is there.

Note: I wouldn't think he would bring in a JAG with a reputation for blaming/calling out his coaches, but someone with significant talent and performance relative to salary isn't eliminated based on these kinds of things.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Corey Dillon was considered a trouble maker for calling out the coaches in Cincinnati when he was tired of losing, I believe that a decent portion of the Moss baggage was related to him being in a losing situation. I'm just saying that BB doesn't seem to view a fierce desire to win as a negative - if the talent to back up the desire is there.
In my mind, there's a big difference in calling out coaches on a bad, clearly mismanaged team, and calling out coaches when you're winning at a 70% clip, go to the playoffs every year, and have been in the superbowl twice in the past 5 years.

Corey Dillon (and Moss) was understandably upset wasting a good chunk of his career on a bad franchise - Sherman doesn't really have that justification.
 

Marciano490

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Counterpoint - Sherman never was arrested for domestic abuse or nudged anyone with his car.
 

TheoShmeo

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In my mind, there's a big difference in calling out coaches on a bad, clearly mismanaged team, and calling out coaches when you're winning at a 70% clip, go to the playoffs every year, and have been in the superbowl twice in the past 5 years.

Corey Dillon (and Moss) was understandably upset wasting a good chunk of his career on a bad franchise - Sherman doesn't really have that justification.
Then again, we're talking about Poodle Pete. He has clearly accomplished a lot but his style doesn't exactly inspire fear or instill the notion that there is a huge barrier between player and coach. He's much more of a free wheeling, cheerleader type, and whether Sherman should simply respect the office, the person inhabiting it plays a role, I think. Also, let's not forget that Sherman's HC made an epic, shocking blunder in SB 49. That Carroll might engender a little less respect from the troops after he or his OC called for a pass over the middle -- a pass that cost them all rings (and thank you Malcolm) -- is not altogether surprising. I wondered whether Carroll might lose his team in the wake of that decision and his weak explanation after the game. Maybe he lost some of them or lost an element of their respect.

PS: As an unrelated point, I'd rather have Malcolm for another year at $3.9 mm and deal with 2018 later. But damn, the notion of Gilmore and Sherman as the starting corners is enticing. Never a dull moment with BB. Either Butler or Sherman would be a great result.
 
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doc

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Run the all nickel defense with all three. No passes for you!
 

Vinho Tinto

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Then again, we're talking about Poodle Pete
He also doesn't have anything good to say about Jim Harbaugh. While neither is the greatest coach in league history, he's been pretty fortunate to have had them as coaches in the NCAA and NFL vs the army of bums he could have been saddled with. Besides Belichick or Vince Lombardi, I'm not sure what other coaches would be suitable for Richard Sherman.
 

TheoShmeo

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He also doesn't have anything good to say about Jim Harbaugh. While neither is the greatest coach in league history, he's been pretty fortunate to have had them as coaches in the NCAA and NFL vs the army of bums he could have been saddled with. Besides Belichick or Vince Lombardi, I'm not sure what other coaches would be suitable for Richard Sherman.
That could be. I'm not here to act as his advocate. I don't particularly like him but still like the idea of a talent like him in the Pats' secondary.

From my perspective, he has a basis to have a less than cheery view of Pete, and the only HC I'm interested in him respecting is one of the two you identified. As long as he gets with the program in Foxboro (if the trade happens), I'm good.
 

Van Everyman

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Would Denver be a sneaky suitor? One would wonder whether Elway would move Talib before letting Sherman go to a competitor like the Pats or Raiders.
 

j44thor

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ATL is logical fit, Quinn is former DC who I believe runs the same system.
Trick is compensation back since ATL doesn't have the high draft pick SEA wants back.
 

E5 Yaz

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ATL is logical fit, Quinn is former DC who I believe runs the same system.
Trick is compensation back since ATL doesn't have the high draft pick SEA wants back.
This is actually the perfect fit, especially given Sherman's admiration for Quinn:

“He’s great at relating to his players. He’s great at understanding the strengths and weakness of his players. He allows everybody to play to their strengths.” - Seattle CB Richard Sherman

He's not going to be traded for a high draft pick ... and be traded to a contender. If Seattle can get Atlanta's 1 and a filler pick, that could be a match ... if Seattle is willing to deal with another NFC power
 

snowmanny

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Also, let's not forget that Sherman's HC made an epic, shocking blunder in SB 49. That Carroll might engender a little less respect from the troops after he or his OC called for a pass over the middle -- a pass that cost them all rings (and thank you Malcolm) -- is not altogether surprising. I wondered whether Carroll might lose his team in the wake of that decision and his weak explanation after.
The oft-repeated idea that Carroll's (or Bevell's) play call caused the interception or that Lynch certainly would have scored on the next play or that that play was more poorly executed than perfectly defended or that anybody besides the actual players on the field decided that game is overblown, lazy, and just plain wrong.

But I digress.
 

MainerInExile

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If coaching that won't mess up a SB is his major requirement, ATL seems like it would be out. Frying pan to the fire.
 

TheoShmeo

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The oft-repeated idea that Carroll's (or Bevell's) play call caused the interception or that Lynch certainly would have scored on the next play or that that play was more poorly executed than perfectly defended or that anybody besides the actual players on the field decided that game is overblown, lazy, and just plain wrong.

But I digress.
Silly digression.

It was a stupid play call. If you were going to pass there (an understandable decision given the possibility of running three plays), throwing to the middle of the field at the goal line, rather than high on the end line or one of the sides, was foolish inasmuch as the chances of a tipped ball or other interception were unacceptably high.

And who said Lynch would have certainly scored? No one. But yes, it was highly likely that if given two chances from the one, Lynch would have scored on one of them.

Either way, it's reasonable to think that Sherman is among the many people who hold Carroll and Bevill responsible for making a decision that contributed mightily to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Which was the point of my earlier post.

And yes, it was a helluva great play by Malcolm Butler, and a play that would have worked for Seattle had he not executed perfectly on the field (and had Browner not prevented his man from picking Butler).
 

nothumb

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While I get the concern (and realize actaully getting Sherman is still an infant pipe dream) I am pretty confident that BB and the coaches will tweak any schemes to maximize a players talents.

IMHO there are basically 2 types of players. Guys who you acquire because they compliment what your doing (with no changes) and your anticipated cost vs production seems to be on the plus side. Or Star/difference makers whom you tweak what you do to fit them into your team.

You use the former and latter to make the sum greater then the whole.

I think Moss was a great example. With Moss the offense suddenly became very vertical. Welker is the other side. BB realized what Moss could add and by adding essentially a journey man slot WR a juggernaut was born. The true genius was marrying Moss(taking doubles deep) and Welker destroying teams underneath for 1st downs.

Once you perfect that then you can then go in a myriad of directions. Do we look for another "Welker" (Edelman, Dola)? Do we look for another Deep Threat?
No.
Gronk came along and BB realized he had another difference maker and suddenly the offense focused on the TE.

Long thought short, if they did acquire Sherman and Sherman was only REALLY REALLY good at Cover 3, BB and the team would figure out how to maximize that. And that may include the defense starting to suddenly run alot of cover 3.

Now i doubt that Sherman can only be effective at what Seattle is doing. But the point remains, for superstars you make changes to your scheme if necessary. For "JAGs" you look for guys whose contribution will be maximized by adding them to your stars.
I agree with a lot of this post, but I was always under the impression that the move to the 2 TE set was a planned strategy intended to exploit matchup issues, not just a found money situation with Gronk. Obviously Gronk enabled them to make the most of it and validated the approach, but I think it was planned more deliberately than this post suggests.
 

Stitch01

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The oft-repeated idea that Carroll's (or Bevell's) play call caused the interception or that Lynch certainly would have scored on the next play or that that play was more poorly executed than perfectly defended or that anybody besides the actual players on the field decided that game is overblown, lazy, and just plain wrong.

But I digress.
This is BBs view as well.
 

caesarbear

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It was a stupid play call... a play that would have worked for Seattle had [Butler] not executed perfectly on the field (and had Browner not prevented his man from picking Butler).
So it was a stupid call because... Malcolm Butler.
 

mcpickl

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Would Denver be a sneaky suitor? One would wonder whether Elway would move Talib before letting Sherman go to a competitor like the Pats or Raiders.
Oakland would be the spot I'd be looking at.

They need a CB, have a lot of cap room, have ex-Seahawks LB coach Ken Norton Jr. as defensive coordinator, Sherman grew up in Compton, went to Stanford, they have a CB coach he may respect in Rod Woodson.

Lot of surface reasons they make sense.

Downside, clown owner and could be a messy two years of fan support in Oakland as a lame duck team.
 

snowmanny

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So it was a stupid call because... Malcolm Butler.
That play is utilized successfully by lots of teams and had been utilized successfully in the past by Seattle. If it was stupid in the Super Bowl, then I guess it's stupid every single time it's ever called. Unless the argument is that in this very particular case Lynch, who had been stopped on one-yard plays several times that season and on 3rd and 2 and on 3rd and 1 in that very game AND had just been tackled by Hightower's pinky finger, was a lock to score on the goal line against the fucking New England Patriots with eight in the box.

So yeah, it was stupid because Malcom Butler read, and jumped, the route.

Edit: Lynch in 2014 20 for 28 gaining 1 yard when there was one yard to go, but only 1 for 5 (ONE FOR FIVE) from the one yard line.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi?request=1&super_bowl=0&match=summary_all&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&team_id=sea&game_type=E&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&quarter=1&quarter=2&quarter=3&quarter=4&quarter=5&tr_gtlt=lt&minutes=15&seconds=00&down=0&down=1&down=2&down=3&down=4&yds_to_go_min=1&yds_to_go_max=1&yg_gtlt=gt&is_first_down=-1&field_pos_min_field=team&field_pos_max_field=team&end_field_pos_min_field=team&end_field_pos_max_field=team&type=RUSH&is_complete=-1&is_turnover=-1&turnover_type=interception&turnover_type=fumble&is_scoring=-1&score_type=touchdown&score_type=field_goal&score_type=safety&is_sack=-1&include_kneels=-1&no_play=0&order_by=yards&more_options=0&rush_direction=LE&rush_direction=LT&rush_direction=LG&rush_direction=M&rush_direction=RG&rush_direction=RT&rush_direction=RE&pass_location=SL&pass_location=SM&pass_location=SR&pass_location=DL&pass_location=DM&pass_location=DR
 
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tims4wins

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Yeah I watched Seattle run the same play for a walk in untouched TD in 2015. The only reason the play didn't work is because BB is the GOAT, Ernie Adams is a wizard, and Malcolm Butler is... I dunno. Awesome.
 

TheoShmeo

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Well. You said "a pass that cost them all rings". So, if not Lynch someone else surely would have scored.
Fair point. Sloppy language on my part.

I do think that Seattle very likely would have scored had they not called that pass play and instead passed to one of the sides or high on the end line, and ran on the other two downs. But my point wasn't that and rather was Sherman's perspective.
 

DJnVa

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I would think an even swap would be Butler and 72 for Sherman and 90. Seattle would be getting 2 years of Butler and a higher draft pick and Pats would get 2 years of Sherman and only move down 18 spots.
Seattle saves a lot of money here too...why should the Patriots move down? Seattle should toss in something late this year or next.
 

RedOctober3829

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Seattle saves a lot of money here too...why should the Patriots move down? Seattle should toss in something late this year or next.
They save money the first year but if they franchise him they have to pay Butler approximately $16 million in year two so the money is about even.

If you operate under the premise that it's 1 year of Butler than you could offer Butler and 72 for Sherman, 90, and their 6th rd pick.
 

Leather

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Why is Sherman more valuable than Butler over the next two years, never mind the added $2 Million in salary.
 

koufax32

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I just can't see BB allocating that much cap space to the CB position.

That would be some serious length and skill though with Sherman, Gilmore, and Rowe.
 

dcmissle

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Sentiment rules here. Sherman will be all in. I keep thinking about the end of the SB win against Seattle when Brady consoles Sherman, telling him he's a great, great player. He is.