That was then: Celebrating what was

Jed Zeppelin

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Nah. I don't agree with this line of thinking. My buddy made a large bet against the Pats in the SB. Is that really going to make you feel better about losing? Now you're just a traitor. Never bet against your team.
The opposite also holds true. No idea why you would want even an inkling of disappointment related to your team's success. Just bet on something else.
 

djbayko

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The opposite also holds true. No idea why you would want even an inkling of disappointment related to your team's success. Just bet on something else.
Interesting viewpoint. I can see how that might be true for some. I don't let myself get emotional over any single gambling win or loss, so it's irrelevant to me. The previous scenario is people using gambling specifically to adjust their emotions, which goes against my philosophy I guess.
 

Bergs

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Interesting viewpoint. I can see how that might be true for some. I don't let myself get emotional over any single gambling win or loss, so it's irrelevant to me. The previous scenario is people using gambling specifically to adjust their emotions, which goes against my philosophy I guess.
Plus, 12-4, 13-3, and 14-2 seem the likeliest 3 season outcomes. Betting the over gives you 2 out of the 3.
 

drbretto

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It's the game-tying drive from the Super Bowl.

Wait, this is the Pats, I should be more specific.

It's the game-tying drive from the most recent super bowl.

Wait, someone might read this in 2018.

It's the game-tying drive from Super Bowl LI
 

PedroKsBambino

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Want to kill ten minutes at work?
Thanks for posting.

Another 'little thing' I saw for first time here: On the Edelman catch (you know which one) it is amazing how fast Andrews is up there to get the ball for the next snap. It ultimately didn't matter because the officials delayed and Falcons challenged, but the Pats were fully in movement and fully realized they needed to snap ASAP.

98 times out of 100 it doesn't matter---and in the two it does, the Pats will likely be in the right place at the right time to maximize their advantage.
 

JimBoSox9

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Has anyone else downloaded the Toucher and Rich Super Bowl LI montage? It might be the 2nd best piece of audio they've done after the Bruins 2013 montage after the Eastern Conference Finals.
I'm pretty sure they did one heading into the B's game 7 against Vancouver in 2011 that laps the field
 

BaseballJones

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Thanks for posting.

Another 'little thing' I saw for first time here: On the Edelman catch (you know which one) it is amazing how fast Andrews is up there to get the ball for the next snap. It ultimately didn't matter because the officials delayed and Falcons challenged, but the Pats were fully in movement and fully realized they needed to snap ASAP.

98 times out of 100 it doesn't matter---and in the two it does, the Pats will likely be in the right place at the right time to maximize their advantage.
The Patriots hustling to the line forced the Falcons to panic. If they had taken their time, Atlanta could have seen more replays and concluded that it was a catch and not challenged. That time out could have been huge when Atlanta got the ball that one last time. But the Pats hustling to the line forced them to make a snap decision on whether to challenge it or not. They did. They lost not only the challenge but the time out as well, which may have cost them big-time at the very end of regulation.

Sometimes it's the big things. Sometimes it's the little things. Edelman making the catch was big. The Patriots hustling to the line was little, but it was big, if you catch my meaning.
 

kelpapa

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I didn't realize Streamable links don't show up on mobile.

It's the game tying drive from the time that the PATRIOTS CAME BACK FROM DOWN 25 IN THE FUCKING SUPER BOWL.
It's the game-tying drive from the Super Bowl.

Wait, this is the Pats, I should be more specific.

It's the game-tying drive from the most recent super bowl.

Wait, someone might read this in 2018.

It's the game-tying drive from Super Bowl LI
Yea, what he said.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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The Patriots hustling to the line forced the Falcons to panic. If they had taken their time, Atlanta could have seen more replays and concluded that it was a catch and not challenged. That time out could have been huge when Atlanta got the ball that one last time. But the Pats hustling to the line forced them to make a snap decision on whether to challenge it or not. They did. They lost not only the challenge but the time out as well, which may have cost them big-time at the very end of regulation.

Sometimes it's the big things. Sometimes it's the little things. Edelman making the catch was big. The Patriots hustling to the line was little, but it was big, if you catch my meaning.
Yeah, the hustle to the line served two purposes. It definitely forced the Falcons to use their challenge. They really had no choice. Unless you get a replay very quickly to see it's a catch you can't risk being the team that in the Super Bowl didn't use a challenge and let a play like that stand just because the other team ran a quick play. It also was the smart thing to do even if the team knew the play was likely to be upheld. The Patriots were down 8. They needed to score quickly if they could, in case they missed the 2-point conversion and needed to have time after a potential onside kick. So, getting another play on the plus side of the 2:00 warning was a good idea anyway, because you get the play and then a free time out if there's an in bounds tackle.

The way it worked out was just rotten for the Falcons. First, they burned their time out. Second, they stopped the clock. Third, they gave the Patriots the chance to run a much better play than they likely would have run if they had just gotten to the line of scrimmage and attempted a quick play to try to block a challenge. If the Falcons just let the play stand, the Patriots probably run a milquetoast run into the line of scrimmage that gets them very little and sets up second down, or worse, in their rush to beat the two minute warning they take a line of scrimmage penalty or something and set up a first and 15. It is unlikely that if the Falcons don't challenge that the Patriots end up with a 20 yard downfield pass before the two minute warning.
 

Bergs

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Yeah, the hustle to the line served two purposes. It definitely forced the Falcons to use their challenge. They really had no choice. Unless you get a replay very quickly to see it's a catch you can't risk being the team that in the Super Bowl didn't use a challenge and let a play like that stand just because the other team ran a quick play. It also was the smart thing to do even if the team knew the play was likely to be upheld. The Patriots were down 8. They needed to score quickly if they could, in case they missed the 2-point conversion and needed to have time after a potential onside kick. So, getting another play on the plus side of the 2:00 warning was a good idea anyway, because you get the play and then a free time out if there's an in bounds tackle.

The way it worked out was just rotten for the Falcons. First, they burned their time out. Second, they stopped the clock. Third, they gave the Patriots the chance to run a much better play than they likely would have run if they had just gotten to the line of scrimmage and attempted a quick play to try to block a challenge. If the Falcons just let the play stand, the Patriots probably run a milquetoast run into the line of scrimmage that gets them very little and sets up second down, or worse, in their rush to beat the two minute warning they take a line of scrimmage penalty or something and set up a first and 15. It is unlikely that if the Falcons don't challenge that the Patriots end up with a 20 yard downfield pass before the two minute warning.
This is a great post. It also made me grin ear to ear.
 

PedroKsBambino

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koufax32

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I just read the SB game thread again last night. Finished around 11:00 and didn't fall asleep until almost 45 minutes later. Probably should have run a few miles then tried to go to sleep. What a game and what an experience.
Did Marciano ever update us on the status of his bladder? Any Foulke-like damage for the sake of the team?
 

Saints Rest

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The line had been out there for, what, roughly 85 plays at that point? And each of those lineman had played every single one of them. That's why you run hills in week 23---because you might need to be able to sprint upfield and get to the line to put pressure the other team with two minutes left in the Super Bowl.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/new-england-patriots-superior-conditioning-big-part-of-comeback-win-over-atlanta-falcons-in-super-bowl-li
And you can bet that BB can use this as evidence. And more importantly he can have his key team leaders let it be known from within the ranks, guys like Nink, Slater, DMC, Solder, etc. they've lived it and seen the results when looking across the line at the eyes of the Falcons (and others).
 

speedracer

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The line had been out there for, what, roughly 85 plays at that point? And each of those lineman had played every single one of them. That's why you run hills in week 23---because you might need to be able to sprint upfield and get to the line to put pressure the other team with two minutes left in the Super Bowl.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/new-england-patriots-superior-conditioning-big-part-of-comeback-win-over-atlanta-falcons-in-super-bowl-li
 

54thMA

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Thx,...both of those were awesome. Insane!
Both of those were good, I followed the link to "Patriots win the Super Bowl. Everyone goes nuts"..............that is by far my favorite video from that game, just epic. I think of my Dad every time I watch it, that was his last Boston sports memory as he passed away a few weeks later.

Anyone who doesn't watch sports is missing the boat in a major way, it's a lot more than just the particular game itself, it's about the memories and sharing them with the people in your life that you care about, a common bond if you will.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Ok, but impossible to tell from a still if the clock is running or not.
It's a great sequence. Note that KC has all three timeouts throughout all of it, and doesn't use the first until after their onside attempt has failed:

  • 1st and 10 at NE 20
    (3:00 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Smith pass short left to A.Wilson to NE 1 for 19 yards (M.Butler).

  • 1st and Goal at NE 1
    (2:33 - 4th) (No Huddle) C.West right guard to NE 2 for -1 yards (J.Sheard; D.Watson).

  • (2:00 - 4th) Two-Minute Warning
  • 2nd and Goal at NE 2
    (2:00 - 4th) (Shotgun) PENALTY on KC-E.Fisher, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 2 - No Play.
  • 2nd and Goal at NE 7
    (2:00 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass short right to J.Avant to NE 3 for 4 yards (L.Ryan).

  • 3rd and Goal at NE 3
    (1:22 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete short right to J.Avant. PENALTY on NE-L.Ryan, Defensive Pass Interference, 2 yards, enforced at NE 3 - No Play.

  • 1st and Goal at NE 1
    (1:22 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.Smith pass incomplete short left to C.Conley.

  • 2nd and Goal at NE 1
    (1:13 - 4th) Charcandrick West 1 Yard Rush C.Santos extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Winchester, Holder-D.Colquitt.
 

Old Fart Tree

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I never noticed before, but check out the secondary bickering with each other after the catch around :47 seconds in.
I started noticing it about the 30th time I watched it. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's the completion to Edelman. Alford has Edelman in man, and the Falcons are basically in the perfect play call to stop an in route from Edelman, because they have the young LB Jones (#45 I think) dropping into a sort of robber coverage in the hook/curl zones. Alford knows he's got inside help, lets Edelman release to the inside, but Jones gets caught flat footed and allows Edelman to clear him just by a smidge while Alford is trailing him. Alford is understandably like WTF: how the hell did you let him get open, we had the PERFECT play call to stop that play and they just out executed us.
 

TomTerrific

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I never noticed before, but check out the secondary bickering with each other after the catch around :47 seconds in.
Yeah, right after the bullet to Edelman. I remembered seeing it live watching the game, and then looked for it afterwards when I was rewatching the game.

To be honest, I give Atlanta a lot of credit for only showing frustration that one time, and very near the end at that. Because at that point a) Atlanta's D had been out there for 90+ snaps, b) the NE offense was making chunk plays down the field for their 5th consecutive score (in essence), c) they were about to give up the biggest lead by far in SB history, and d) they had the weight of Atlanta's sports history about to come crashing down on them.

Atlanta's D played well, and hung together well. NE's offense was just better.
 

loshjott

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And you can bet that BB can use this as evidence. And more importantly he can have his key team leaders let it be known from within the ranks, guys like Nink, Slater, DMC, Solder, etc. they've lived it and seen the results when looking across the line at the eyes of the Falcons (and others).
Every coach in NE from college level on down can and should use it as evidence.
 

InstaFace

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Cross-posting from the Jimmy G thread, ESPN has put out a lengthy, hagiographic article on Tom Brady's pursuit of new challenges, such as matching Michael Jordan. It has some good quotes and stories from Brady's past, although there's plenty of recency bias to the thought that only Michael Jordan can compare to Brady among team-sport athletes (i.e., players like Babe Ruth or Pele might have something to say about that). A good read for lunch or a bathroom break at work.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Of course, the guy Jordan never caught is Bill Russell, who remains (and thanks to the Giants, will remain) alone at the top of the pyramid of team sport athlete success even after Brady retires. Thirteen seasons, 11 titles...and two in three years in college to boot is pretty much inarguably more than Jordan achieved (or that Ruth or Pele achieved)
 

BaseballJones

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One guy that ALWAYS gets overlooked is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Whenever we talk about the greatest NBA players ever, he gets overlooked. Whenever we talk about the greatest NBA *centers* of all time, he gets overlooked, never put in the same class as Russell or Chamberlin. Sometimes even Shaq gets put above him; others favor Olajuwon. I don't know what a guy needs to do to get the respect he deserves.

- NBA's all-time leading scorer
- #1 all time in Win Shares (far ahead of #2 Wilt)
- #2 all time in games played
- #4 all time in rebounds
- #3 all time in blocked shots
- 6x NBA MVP (one more than Jordan and Russell, 2 more than Wilt or LeBron, 3 more than Bird or Magic)
- 6x NBA Champion
- 19x NBA all-star
- at 41 years of age, averaged 16 points and 7 rebounds (15.9 and 7.1, technically), the same numbers that Al Horford just put up at age 30

Why do we talk about Brady trying to catch Jordan, when he's also trying to catch Kareem? Why does Kareem get virtually no love?
 

JimBoSox9

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Because he wasn't even the best player on his own team, and his stat line is a beneficiary of that arrangement? Also the longevity is nice, he deserves his career accumulation rankings, but it's not terribly relevant to GOAT-oriented discussions.
 

BaseballJones

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Because he wasn't even the best player on his own team, and his stat line is a beneficiary of that arrangement? Also the longevity is nice, he deserves his career accumulation rankings, but it's not terribly relevant to GOAT-oriented discussions.
Kareem was absolutely the best player on his team for many, many years. He was the best player on the Milwaukee teams, and he was the best player on the Lakers all the way through the first few years Magic was there. By the time Magic surpassed him, Kareem was in his mid-30s.

And Kareem wasn't just a compiler - you don't win 6 MVPs just being a compiler. The guy was unfreakingbelievable. Your post is an example of how he doesn't get the respect he deserves.

But I won't derail the thread anymore. Just find it interesting is all. Carry on.

(And FWIW, I was wrong about Kareem averaging 15.9 at age 41. I was looking at his per 36 minutes number. He averaged 10.1 points and 4.5 rebounds at age 41. Still....very impressive.)

If he had managed to avoid the fish dinner and bring the plane in safely he'd get more respect.
This, of course, is the right answer. He didn't like being called out by that kid in the cockpit for not hustling all the time very much either - demonstrating he had too thin skin to be the GOAT.
 

snowmanny

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The thing about Jabbar is that he played four years in college while he would have been a great NBA player. I was a kid but that 1971 Bucks team looked as invincible as any I've ever seen.

By the time Magic showed up he was on the downside of his career, though still very very good for awhile.
 

BaseballJones

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The thing about Jabbar is that he played four years in college while he would have been a great NBA player. I was a kid but that 1971 Bucks team looked as invincible as any I've ever seen.

By the time Magic showed up he was on the downside of his career, though still very very good for awhile.
Magic Johnson entered the league and was a great player right away.

The year Magic entered the league....Kareem was the NBA's MVP.

Three years later, the 76ers acquired Moses Malone specifically to deal with Kareem. Who was *35 years old* at the time. They never got someone specifically to deal with Magic, as great as he was. Kareem was still the focal point for the Lakers, even at that age.

Anyway, the point being - Kareem is criminally underrated.
 

DJnVa

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His Win Shares is nice, but it's a function of his playing so long. There's nothing wrong with that, but WS/48 and he's behind Jordan and some others.

Now, he's still like #7 on the list, but his big lead in total WS goes away.

Anyway, the point being - Kareem is criminally underrated.
Not calling him the greatest ever is not underrating him.
 

BaseballJones

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His Win Shares is nice, but it's a function of his playing so long. There's nothing wrong with that, but WS/48 and he's behind Jordan and some others.

Now, he's still like #7 on the list, but his big lead in total WS goes away.
Right, I get that. But he's not just a compiler who was pretty good for a long period of time. He was *ELITE* for a LONG period of time. That's why his win shares lead is so big over the #2 guy.

Not calling him the greatest ever is not underrating him.
No and I don't think he's the greatest ever either. But like I said...he's never even mentioned in that group, not even mentioned as the greatest at his position either. Which is crazy. He's at least in the discussion. And he has six MVPs. More than Brady. More than Wilt or Russell or Jordan. And he has six championships. More than Brady. Same as Jordan.

We ought not discredit those championships in any way just because for the last couple, he was the 2nd best player on the team. It would be like not counting Elway's rings because Davis was a better player at that point. Or Bradshaw's rings because there were a half dozen guys on that team who were better than him.

Kareem may be criminally underrated. That doesn't mean that he wasn't Magic's sidekick. No shame in that.
He wasn't Magic's sidekick the first few years. He was the man. Just remember how Philly got Moses just to deal with Kareem.

Anyway, I get the idea. Jordan is a class above Kareem. Brady is above Kareem, and is chasing Jordan as the greatest regardless of sport. Understood.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Kareem may be criminally underrated. That doesn't mean that he wasn't Magic's sidekick. No shame in that.
Perhaps not, but it simply isn't true...Kareem was the materially better player through 1985 and arguably until Magic got a jumper in 1988. The Lakers offense and defense revolved around Kareem until 1987, when it began to transition more to Magic. I know where some of the metrics land, but this is into the gap for metrics---Magic's assists are real, but likely overweighted in the metrics; Magic's iffy defense and lack of a jumper might show in +/- numbers, but not box-score ones; Kareem's excellent defense is undervalued by those same metrics. And there's no credit in box-score stats for being the guy teams plan around, which was Kareem.

This would be an interesting discussion in the Port Cellar, though I'd be pretty surprised if the basketball fans old enough to have watched those teams would agree Magic was the better player early in his career. As others noted, the NBA writers at the time didn't (I realize they aren't a perfect gauge of anything).
 

bakahump

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The Sky hook and the Crossing pattern to Welker/Edelman/Cook is comparable. Both are unstoppable.

I know its childhood nostalgia but guys like Kareem, (as we all know) Mchale, Adrian Dantley and Mark Aguirre where unstoppable down on the block. Not that Barkley, Ewing and Akeem weren't ..I just remember the first set getting kudos not just every game but every possesion.
 

snowmanny

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Just to be clear, I'm on the side of Jabbar needs to be in the discussion as greatest player, but you need to include his college career to make the best argument. LOL beat the #1 ranked team in the country (though they didn't finish #1) with his freshman team.
 

RetractableRoof

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The Sky hook and the Crossing pattern to Welker/Edelman/Cook is comparable. Both are unstoppable.

I know its childhood nostalgia but guys like Kareem, (as we all know) Mchale, Adrian Dantley and Mark Aguirre where unstoppable down on the block. Not that Barkley, Ewing and Akeem weren't ..I just remember the first set getting kudos not just every game but every possesion.
Akeem wasn't unstoppable early in his career, but peak Akeem was really a monster.

Edit:
 

tims4wins

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"Oh that's a catch!"
"My god!"
Buck gets a lot of heat, but a few of his Boston-calls have been amazing.

"Red Sox fans have longed to hear it" - his voice practically cracked
"Grand slam" - so much emotion in his voice
"Oh that's a catch" - genuine excitement