Celtics Draft Jayson Tatum at #3

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,594
Here
Finding a way to get 7 points, when it would have been easy for him to turtle a bit and end up with 1-2, bodes well for his long term development as a scorer. It makes me happy to think of this as one of his worst games so far.
Tatum finished with 12, as he got to the line a few times.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
I think Brad's doing a great job of testing Tatum without dumping on him. Tatum needs to learn, so having him guard KD makes sense. But allowing to be abused for a full game and get blamed for a loss would not. Stevens knows this, and does a great job of taking the foot of the gas and of shifting gears, with virtually all of his players. And it isn't all reactionary - he both plans and reacts.

Just a joy to watch this team right now...
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,480
Melrose, MA
And this from Bill Simmons:

Doc = one of the only true NBA gods. I am conceding the point. And I’m treading lightly here.

Anyway, you know Jayson Tatum as a well-spoken, fundamentally sound Duke kid, a potentially potent hybrid of Paul Pierce and Danny Granger, the one who definitely goes first in any 2017 redraft, the 19-year-old kid who fought a mammoth case of Rookie Jitters during Thursday night’s win over Golden State before finally settling down late. He’s not nearly as cool as Dr. J was. He can’t jump as high or float as long.

But Tatum stole Doc’s leaning Drive-and-Swoop, a move that hasn’t been done consistently well in 30-plus years. Here’s the move: Start 15 feet from the hoop, glide by your defender, take two giant steps, then stretch the ball past or through defenders for right-handed finger-roll layups. Defenders never realize Tatum can reach the rim after those two steps, but he always does.

And like Doc, Tatum finishes the same move going left by shooting with his right hand—on that side, he twists his body like a high jumper about to pass over the bar.

Tatum already shoots 3s, turnarounds, and stop-and-pops at a stunningly high level, but that Doc Drive-and-Swoop sets him apart. To borrow a WWE phrase, it’s a finishing move—his personal version of Randy Orton’s RKO. Throw in his sterling free throw shooting and Tatum looks like a future 28 PPG/50-40-90 guy.
 

tbrown_01923

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2006
780
Well thats got to be a bit of hyperbole: "future 28 PPG/50-40-90 guy". Geesh - but the drive-and-swoop is real!
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
The 50-40-90 isn't that outrageous, which says a lot about about Tatum. Doing that in a 28PPG season is one hell of a challenge. I wouldn't hang that on a 19yo quite yet.
Yeah. That basically puts him in Durant territory and exceeding anything Dirk ever did.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I remember a million years ago that it was noteworthy that Bird was a 50/90 guy (FG % at 50%; FT @90%) and McHale was 60/80. Now I wonder how rare are either of those two accomplishments?
Probably not that rare but 50/40/90 is.

Been done 13 times, with Nash doing it 4 times and Bird twice.

List of times
 
Last edited:

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,701
Saint Paul, MN
I remember a million years ago that it was noteworthy that Bird was a 50/90 guy (FG % at 50%; FT @90%) and McHale was 60/80. Now I wonder how rare are either of those two accomplishments?
60/80 is super rare. If you set a cutoff of 1000 minutes, it's only been done three times. Kevin McHale, Dave Twardzik, and David Lee
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Only one with a realistic chance of 60/80 in the NBA today is probably Enes Kanter. Usually the guys who shoot over 60% are bigs like Capela, Adams, and Jordan who couldn't hit a FT to save their life.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,088
Probably not that rare but 50/40/90 is.

Been done 13 times, with Nash doing it 4 times and Bird twice.

List of times
I was surprised to see Steve Kerr on the list. He pulled it off in a non-starting role with > 500 minutes less playing time than the next closest player on the list. Man, Bird and Dirk were good on the offensive boards. I guess Durant doesn’t have the offensive rebounding proficiency because he plays further from the rim.

It would be phenomenal indeed for Tatum to join this list.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
I know Simmons’ piece got shit upthread and no, he’s not Dr J, but damn if he doesn’t have the same kind of length and glide to him. Early comparisons were Pierce, but I don’t think Pierce was ever as athletic as him. Pierce had a very unique game, IMO, but I’m only going off the eye test and I’m not an expert by any means, but he doesn’t strike me as a Pierce. Either way, as much as I hate to root for a Blue Devil, damn this kid is exciting.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,429
You can see his confidence growing each game. He also doesn't look like a sprawling pair of arms and legs flying to the basket anymore. He looked real smooth last night and was gliding all over the court. Last night's game was really exciting.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,506
Thinking about it more, his smoothness on the court made me think of Connie Hawkins, even though I didn't see a ton f the Hawk (older than even I am!). Judge for yourself.

 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,480
Melrose, MA
Well thats got to be a bit of hyperbole: "future 28 PPG/50-40-90 guy". Geesh - but the drive-and-swoop is real!
Yes, he could be a great player and not a 50-40-90 guy. Paul Pierce, for example, was a career 45-37-80 guy who never touched 50% or 90% in a single season (and only did 40% three times).

I posted that bit from Simmons based for the Dr J comparison.

I know Simmons’ piece got shit upthread and no, he’s not Dr J, but damn if he doesn’t have the same kind of length and glide to him. Early comparisons were Pierce, but I don’t think Pierce was ever as athletic as him. Pierce had a very unique game, IMO, but I’m only going off the eye test and I’m not an expert by any means, but he doesn’t strike me as a Pierce. Either way, as much as I hate to root for a Blue Devil, damn this kid is exciting.
Agree with all of this. Dr J was obviously far more of an explosive "above the rim" guy than Tatum will ever be, but there are some similarites when you look at the length and drive specifically.

The Pierce comp fits in the sense that Pierce was an expert scorer and creator of his own shot with (among other things) great footwork, and Tatum looks like he has some of those skills and that potential.

What Tatum has that Pierce didn't is the length and ability to use it.

And what Tatum has going for him as a rookie on this team is that he's able to pick and choose his offensive spots as a low usage player while also being capable of contributing in other ways.
 

Steve Dillard

wishes drew noticed him instead of sweet & sour
SoSH Member
Oct 7, 2003
5,932
James Worthy? A bit more of a shooter, less of a downlow slithering guy, but some of those swoops remind me...
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,778
Rotten Apple
Tatum is like if Otis Thorpe and Grant Hill had a baby. Huge props to Danny and Brad for this pick. Great player and great organizational fit.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Ice is easily one of the five or so most explosive scorers in NBA history. The adjective unstoppable gets thrown around a lot; but Jordan, Ice, maybe Kobe or Iverson, and that is about it, are maybe the only guys in NBA history who were actually unstoppable when they had it going on.

His ability inside and outside and size reminds me of Melo; but also a Melon who is significantly more unselfish and gives a shit on the defensive end.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,193
San Francisco
Ice is easily one of the five or so most explosive scorers in NBA history. The adjective unstoppable gets thrown around a lot; but Jordan, Ice, maybe Kobe or Iverson, and that is about it, are maybe the only guys in NBA history who were actually unstoppable when they had it going on.

His ability inside and outside and size reminds me of Melo; but also a Melon who is significantly more unselfish and gives a shit on the defensive end.
Any discussion of truly unstoppable players that doesnt mention prime Shaq is incomplete.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Any discussion of truly unstoppable players that doesnt mention prime Shaq is incomplete.
Sure; although you could argue his free throw shooting was a glaring weakness that could be easily exploited. He only scored 50+ three times. I was thinking of guys off the top of my head that could just explode for 30 plus points in a half and with everyone on defense knowing he is red hot but still failing to stop him. Gervin scored 50 plus five times over a much shorter career in the NBA. Not counting post-merger guys some of the standouts are MJ (30) Kobe (24) AI (11) LBJ (9 but the list might be dated) Kareem (8) and Bernard King (8). I’d also throw David Thompson and his 53 Point half and 13 made field goals in the first quarter.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,672
Alex English is who he reminds me of. So smooth, but the speed/explosiveness to get to the hoop when the lane is there. Not sure he'll score as much as English, but the style is very similar.

Can't help but break out the pic of English in his one (preseason) game with the C's.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Ice is easily one of the five or so most explosive scorers in NBA history. The adjective unstoppable gets thrown around a lot; but Jordan, Ice, maybe Kobe or Iverson, and that is about it, are maybe the only guys in NBA history who were actually unstoppable when they had it going on.

His ability inside and outside and size reminds me of Melo; but also a Melon who is significantly more unselfish and gives a shit on the defensive end.
Prime Tracy McGrady pretty much did whatever he wanted.
 

JakeRae

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,125
New York, NY
Tatum is currently on track for one or the best seasons by a 19 year old of all time. His .632 TS% blows away the competition. The next closest 19 year old season is Biedrins at .599. The closest non centers are Thadeus Young and Kyrie Irving, at around .560-.570.

By BPM, Tatum is second to only Tracy McGrady. Irving's rookie year was in the same ballpark. Simmons is running away with RotY and it is unlikely Tatum can pass him, but it's worth noting that Tatum's season may very well be more exceptional thus far when adjusted for age. Of course, BPM may be badly overvaluing Tatum's defense because Smart and Brown break DBPM.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
60/80 is super rare. If you set a cutoff of 1000 minutes, it's only been done three times. Kevin McHale, Dave Twardzik, and David Lee
Twardzik really was an anomaly as a non-shooting guard on a team with Bill Walton and Maurice Lucas outlet passes that leading to uncontested layups back in the day before todays insane length and athleticism to combat it. He was a starting guard who averaged less than 6 FGA per game with a high percentage of them of these uncontested layup variety.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Prime Tracy McGrady pretty much did whatever he wanted.
It's a shame we didn't even really see what should have been McGrady's prime as he was a shell of his former self by age 26-27.

Don't get me started on the Alex English hype. I followed his career closely back when he was receiving passes from legendary NY point guard Jackie Gilloon (I just aged myself) and as a mid-teens NBA scorer prior to going to Denver just prior to turning 30 in the Nuggets no-defense, run-n-gun style that set pace records under Doug Moe who once yelled out to his players on the floor, "Hurry up and let them score so we can get the ball back."

English was a nice NBA player for sure but arguably one of the most overrated ones based on the system he played in under Moe. Him being in the HOF imo is a farce.

Edit: Sorry for tangent. Yes, Tatum has all the attributes to be special once his body develops in time.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,701
Saint Paul, MN
English was a nice NBA player for sure but arguably one of the most overrated ones based on the system he played in under Moe. Him being in the HOF imo is a farce.
I don't care what system anyone played for. If they can play almost 1200 games, shoot over 50% from the floor, and average 20+ ppg, and 28 ppg during their peak, they deserve to be in the HOF
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,680
Don't get me started on the Alex English hype. I followed his career closely back when he was receiving passes from legendary NY point guard Jackie Gilloon (I just aged myself) and as a mid-teens NBA scorer prior to going to Denver just prior to turning 30 in the Nuggets no-defense, run-n-gun style that set pace records under Doug Moe who once yelled out to his players on the floor, "Hurry up and let them score so we can get the ball back."

English was a nice NBA player for sure but arguably one of the most overrated ones based on the system he played in under Moe. Him being in the HOF imo is a farce.
Doug Moe's greatest line ever was always "We're not the worst defense in the NBA, our opponents are."

That being said Alex English got traded to Denver during his fourth season in the NBA, not "just before his 30th birthday" and had a decade of offensive awesomeness under Doug Moe. Yes, he was a crap defender, but so was everyone (more or less) in those days. The days of booze and coke were not known for their attention to training or conditioning.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
I don't care what system anyone played for. If they can play almost 1200 games, shoot over 50% from the floor, and average 20+ ppg, and 28 ppg during their peak, they deserve to be in the HOF
Well that's the thing.....English did this AFTER what should have been his peak years. Back then players numbers dropped significantly post 28-29 years of age if they were still in the league by 32. During his actual peak years in a traditional NBA system English was a mid-15 ppg guy who was a decent halfcourt offensive player who wasn't special in creating his own shot......similar to what he was at South Carolina. He only became a 25-30 ppg guy after going to Denver once Moe replaced Donnie Walsh as Head Coach which led to his FGA/g rising from mid-teens to nearly mid-twenties in mostly fast break 2-on-1 and 3-on-2's while not being asked to play any semblance of defense often sneaking out on the break.

I mean if you "don't care" then you can't possible recognize the different game that English was playing compared to everyone else. I watched enough of his career to feel comfortable to recognize him as a good player whose numbers ballooned once he was given more opportunities in the fastest paced system this league has ever seen this side of Paul Westhead (BC's Michael Adams was a career 15 ppg guy who scored 26 in his one full Westhead year, he's not a HOF'er). To put this into context those Nuggets had a pace of 110-112 in those English years......this years Warriors are under 100.


Doug Moe's greatest line ever was always "We're not the worst defense in the NBA, our opponents are."

That being said Alex English got traded to Denver during his fourth season in the NBA, not "just before his 30th birthday" and had a decade of offensive awesomeness under Doug Moe. Yes, he was a crap defender, but so was everyone (more or less) in those days. The days of booze and coke were not known for their attention to training or conditioning.
English was 28 when Moe took over and his offensive numbers exploded.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,101
I'll start by saying that you had to be there to truly understand how much of an outlier the Denver Nuggets were compared to the rest of the league under Doug Moe. When HRB tells you that there was zero attention to defense, he is actually exaggerating how much attention was paid to defense.

However, I have no issue with Alex English being in the Hall of Fame. He was a very skilled offensive player and thrived in playing the up tempo game. I'll add he was still very much in his prime when he joined Denver at 26 years old in his 4th NBA season.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,680
Well that's the thing.....English did this AFTER what should have been his peak years. Back then players numbers dropped significantly post 28-29 years of age if they were still in the league by 32. During his actual peak years in a traditional NBA system English was a mid-15 ppg guy who was a decent halfcourt offensive player who wasn't special in creating his own shot......similar to what he was at South Carolina. He only became a 25-30 ppg guy after going to Denver once Moe replaced Donnie Walsh as Head Coach which led to his FGA/g rising from mid-teens to nearly mid-twenties in mostly fast break 2-on-1 and 3-on-2's while not being asked to play any semblance of defense often sneaking out on the break.

I mean if you "don't care" then you can't possible recognize the different game that English was playing compared to everyone else. I watched enough of his career to feel comfortable to recognize him as a good player whose numbers ballooned once he was given more opportunities in the fastest paced system this league has ever seen this side of Paul Westhead (BC's Michael Adams was a career 15 ppg guy who scored 26 in his one full Westhead year, he's not a HOF'er). To put this into context those Nuggets had a pace of 110-112 in those English years......this years Warriors are under 100.
English scored 21 p/g the minute he set foot on the court for Denver, at the age of 26. And the numbers kept going up the following year, when Moe took over midseason. And he had a decade's run as a 20+ per game scorer, not a one year wonder like Michael Adams. If Adams had spent a decade scoring like that, he'd be a HoFer.

Also, it wasn't that unusual for guys to last so long as there were no injury issues, and English certainly didn't have any. It was always the little guys that dropped off the cliff at age 30.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I'll start by saying that you had to be there to truly understand how much of an outlier the Denver Nuggets were compared to the rest of the league under Doug Moe. When HRB tells you that there was zero attention to defense, he is actually exaggerating how much attention was paid to defense.

However, I have no issue with Alex English being in the Hall of Fame. He was a very skilled offensive player and thrived in playing the up tempo game. I'll add he was still very much in his prime when he joined Denver at 26 years old in his 4th NBA season.

For the first 3-4 years, they were playing at a pace 4 possessions+ higher than the 2nd place team. They also won games so it worked. English was also only 26 when Moe took over, and only had 4 years in the league prior. He was traded to Denver in his 4th season and immediately started to score more, before Moe took over. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/englial01.html

I loved Fat Lever.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,680
However, I have no issue with Alex English being in the Hall of Fame. He was a very skilled offensive player and thrived in playing the up tempo game. I'll add he was still very much in his prime when he joined Denver at 26 years old in his 4th NBA season.
Maybe he's redefining "prime seasons" to mean "age 26 season"? Bird's best years were certainly his 5th through 9th seasons in the NBA, all of those coming after age 26. I don't think that it was that unusual back then for guys to hit their stride in their fifth season. I don't think it's that unusual now, we just see guys getting there sooner because so few of them play more than a year of college ball anymore.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Adrian Dantley was another guy who could score at will.

edit: Not to mention guys like Kareem, Baylor, Wilt, Barry, McAdoo, prime King. Granted Kliq only mentioned players from 1980 on but a few of these guys played in the 80's too.

double edit: Nevermind, it was a top 5 list.
 
Last edited:

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,701
Saint Paul, MN
I also think there is a big difference between Shaq getting the ball on or near the block and being unstoppable, and Kobe/AI/Jordan/etc starting up near half court and being unstoppable. One is a case of ridiculous size and ability, while the other is more of a ridiculous talent and athleticism
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
For the first 3-4 years, they were playing at a pace 4 possessions+ higher than the 2nd place team. They also won games so it worked. English was also only 26 when Moe took over, and only had 4 years in the league prior. He was traded to Denver in his 4th season and immediately started to score more, before Moe took over. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/englial01.html

I loved Fat Lever.
During English's first two years in Denver his numbers made a modest increase as most of it was simply due to an increase in minutes played. It wasn't until Moe's offense was fully implemented that English went from a 16-21 ppg guy by receiving more minutes to a 28 ppg guy once the Pace skyrocketed under Moe without spending any energy on the defensive end. Or see lexrageorge's post above.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
4,948
What makes this even more impressive is that the likely RoY (Simmons) is closer in age to 3rd year Kristaps Porzingis than the possible runner-up in Jayson Tatum.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
During English's first two years in Denver his numbers made a modest increase as most of it was simply due to an increase in minutes played. It wasn't until Moe's offense was fully implemented that English went from a 16-21 ppg guy by receiving more minutes to a 28 ppg guy once the Pace skyrocketed under Moe without spending any energy on the defensive end. Or see lexrageorge's post above.
Who would have thought a player getting 5 more minutes a game and becoming more a focal point of the offense would see his scoring increase, especially when that increase happened during his prime years? Shocker. It's almost unheard of for a player to improve after his 4th season in the NBA. And even if it wasn't improvement...Opportunity matters. Ask James Harden, ask IT4.
 

JimBoSox9

will you be my friend?
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
16,667
Mid-surburbia
I know Simmons’ piece got shit upthread and no, he’s not Dr J, but damn if he doesn’t have the same kind of length and glide to him. Early comparisons were Pierce, but I don’t think Pierce was ever as athletic as him. Pierce had a very unique game, IMO, but I’m only going off the eye test and I’m not an expert by any means, but he doesn’t strike me as a Pierce. Either way, as much as I hate to root for a Blue Devil, damn this kid is exciting.
James Worthy? A bit more of a shooter, less of a downlow slithering guy, but some of those swoops remind me...
Alex English is a good comp. Maybe a little bit of The Iceman as well.

These are pretty hefty comps. Pretty dammed exciting to be a Celts fan right now.
I always thought Pierce was a silly comparison for Tatum, but so far the almost-too-obvious comparison to me is a poor man's Durant - similar frames, athleticism & basketball skills a tick or so lower across the board. If Tatum's shot keeps coming along he can be 90% of what KD is.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,101
Adrian Dantley was another guy who could score at will.

edit: Not to mention guys like Kareem, Baylor, Wilt, Barry, McAdoo, prime King. Granted Kliq only mentioned players from 1980 on but a few of these guys played in the 80's too.

double edit: Nevermind, it was a top 5 list.
Kareem was an essentially unstoppable offensive force when he was on the Bucks and the early days of his Lakers tenure. He probably should be on a Top 5 list.