Celtics in 18-19

[benhogan]

That's the thing.....if Crawford doesn't interest you (he doesn't do a whole lot for me either) then none of the other guys available are going to either. I mean Jarrell Eddie, really?

Larkin wouldn't return to Boston in the same role. He wanted playing time to take a pay cut and when he couldn't find a rotation spot elsewhere in the NBA he signed with a team in Turkey for $1.8m which is $600k more than what his minimum guarantee would have been in this league.

Ok. scratch Larkin.

We have PJ Dozier/Walt Lemon on 2-way deals.

Crawford's age, declining skill set and lack of opportunity feels like an awkward fit. But not really too bothered.

I'd rather see 3rd stringers like Semi, Wanamaker get minutes and develop then see Crawford. But its an end of the bench role, so trust Brad/Danny to make sure its a player that knows and appreciates their role.

Is Corey Brewer worth a look? Al's old pal from his Florida days.

 

[chilidawg]

Last year Ainge kept the 15th spot open until signing Monroe, might make good sense again this year to wait and see what needs are mid season.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I just can't see Crawford in a Stevens system. He is a shooter first and always, even if he has teammates open around him. If you hate Marcus Smart shooting at inopportune times or he continues shooting even when everyone in the building knows that he is ice cold, you will come to loathe Crawford.

With his offense in decline, the guy seems like the last player Stevens wants on the end of his bench. He is essentially a waste of a roster spot at this point.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Training camp in one week!

 

[Saints Rest]

I’m a No on Crawford. I think if Ainge is going to fill that 15th slot with someone, it needs to be a big, a 5. It’s the one place where I think they are thin as neither Al not Theis are traditional 5’s (I know, I know, the traditional 5 is a dying breed). But it’s not dead yet. There will still be some times where Baynes is needed but is not available. Theis and Al will wear down too fast if they have to spend too much time thru the dog days of January and February banging around with the Embiids, Gortats, etc.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I’m a No on Crawford. I think if Ainge is going to fill that 15th slot with someone, it needs to be a big, a 5. It’s the one place where I think they are thin as neither Al not Theis are traditional 5’s (I know, I know, the traditional 5 is a dying breed). But it’s not dead yet. There will still be some times where Baynes is needed but is not available. Theis and Al will wear down too fast if they have to spend too much time thru the dog days of January and February banging around with the Embiids, Gortats, etc.

Don't they already have that in Robert Williams? The 15th man is going to get sporadic playing time and tons of DNPs.

 

[Saints Rest]

RW is another body, yes, but he's smaller than Al (by a few pounds) so not exactly another Baynesian bruiser.

 

[InstaFace]

Don't they already have that in Robert Williams? The 15th man is going to get sporadic playing time and tons of DNPs.

Sure, but who do you fill his spot with when he misses the plane to the next game?

 

[nighthob]

I’m a No on Crawford. I think if Ainge is going to fill that 15th slot with someone, it needs to be a big, a 5. It’s the one place where I think they are thin as neither Al not Theis are traditional 5’s (I know, I know, the traditional 5 is a dying breed). But it’s not dead yet. There will still be some times where Baynes is needed but is not available. Theis and Al will wear down too fast if they have to spend too much time thru the dog days of January and February banging around with the Embiids, Gortats, etc.

That's what Yabu Dabu Du is for. Sure, he's short, but he's a real load. As limited as he is, I doubt that there's much of an upgrade to be had for the NBA minimum.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Maybe he's the product dragging down the personnel around him?

Last is, you know, pretty bad.

I'm plenty happy having Wanamaker as the 5th guard. He's the exact type for that role. A dude that isn't worried about his shots, knows he's not going to play much, and is thrilled to have that small role at all.

We'd be one injury away from Wanamaker being a rotation guy and two away from him seeing significant minutes. He wasn't a very good prospect coming out of college and we've never seen him succeed against this level of competition so I'd like to see a little better resume for our 5th guard.

 

[JakeRae]

We'd be one injury away from Wanamaker being a rotation guy and two away from him seeing significant minutes. He wasn't a very good prospect coming out of college and we've never seen him succeed against this level of competition so I'd like to see a little better resume for our 5th guard.

This is what 5th guards are. For example, the Warriors 5th guard is probably Kendrick Nunn or Danuel House. Quinn Cook is their 4th guard.

The Rockets actually run 6 deep at guard, with the 6th option being Gerald Green. But, that counts Gordon and MCW as guards and they are only that deep because they play 3 guards as their base rotation.

The Sixers, counting Simmons as a guard, have one of Fultz or Bayless as their 5th guard (the other is 4th) one Zhaire Smith as their sixth guard.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

This is what 5th guards are. For example, the Warriors 5th guard is probably Kendrick Nunn or Danuel House. Quinn Cook is their 4th guard.

The Rockets actually run 6 deep at guard, with the 6th option being Gerald Green. But, that counts Gordon and MCW as guards and they are only that deep because they play 3 guards as their base rotation.

The Sixers, counting Simmons as a guard, have one of Fultz or Bayless as their 5th guard (the other is 4th) one Zhaire Smith as their sixth guard.

Yes of course they are. It is a fungible group and we were very fortunate to be able to land a player such as Larkin for that role last year. This doesn't mean that a GM "wants" an inexperienced rookie in that role only that few veterans will come here to accept that role. For this reason Crawford would be a legitimate option if he accepted it which I'm not certain is in his DNA. Even with what we know Crawford is today, it isn't likely that Wannamaker is better and could very well be worse. Coaches like and trust older players more than undrafted rookies......especially on championship level teams where teaching/developing isn't the priority.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

For example, the Warriors 5th guard is probably Kendrick Nunn or Danuel House.

Hmm, that's not quite accurate. Iguodala can easily play 2 or even 1 — with Curry out, he was the team's starting PG for 1.5 rounds in last year's playoffs, for example. He's not really any different in size, skillset, or role from Livingston (just a slightly better version without the old-school turnaround J). But even if you take him off the list and call him a SF, you have to go a bit farther down than #5 before getting to the Houses and Nunns of the world (who even if they get guaranteed contracts are likely to spend most of their time in Santa Cruz). Right now their G depth chart looks something like:

Curry
Thompson
(Iguodala)
Livingston
Quinn Cook
Pat McCaw (still un-signed, weirdly, but by all accounts they're holding the #14 roster spot open for him, and he's likely to return)
Jacob Evans
Damion Lee (already got one of the guaranteed two-way contracts, possibly by virtue of being Steph's brother-in-law?)
House, Nunn, et al.

As far as the Celtics, you may have similar fluidity/ flexibility in that Tatum (I think?) has the quickness, handles, and defensive chops to occasionally slide down to 2 (for example, in a lineup with Kyrie, Hayward, Morris and Horford?) Which I guess wouldn't preclude adding one more guard — an 82-game season is long, and Kyrie has not always been the most durable guy. But assuming reasonable health from Kyrie, I can't imagine that 5th-6th guard would see any meaningful minutes come playoff time.

 

[RorschachsMask]

Tatum is 24 on espn's top 100 player list, he was in the 30s for SI and CBS. Stephen Jackson and Windhorst both think he can be a top 10 player by the end of the season.

The hype is insane, but dude has been in the gym ALL summer. I think top 10 this year is a reach, but I could buy top 20 by the playoffs. The people who think he won't get a lot of touches are crazy, I bet he takes 15-16 shots a game, which is around 20 a game with his efficiency.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Yes of course they are. It is a fungible group and we were very fortunate to be able to land a player such as Larkin for that role last year. This doesn't mean that a GM "wants" an inexperienced rookie in that role only that few veterans will come here to accept that role. For this reason Crawford would be a legitimate option if he accepted it which I'm not certain is in his DNA. Even with what we know Crawford is today, it isn't likely that Wannamaker is better and could very well be worse. Coaches like and trust older players more than undrafted rookies......especially on championship level teams where teaching/developing isn't the priority.

I am curious what data supports your view that Crawford is better than Wanamaker right now. Crawford's main role has been that of a bench shooter for the better part of the last decade, however his shooting skill has fallen off hard, especially from deep. He also doesn't or is incapable of playing defense and is not a good distributor or rebounder. At 38, going on 39, all signs point to him being completely washed. I am not sure what Stevens can trust him to do for the team other than be a good teammate which, as SRN points out, is something he is known for at least via the media - they love him too.

Wanamaker may not be a true NBA player but he has far more upside than an over the hill one dimensional player whose one dimension has collapsed recently imho.

 

[mcpickl]

We'd be one injury away from Wanamaker being a rotation guy and two away from him seeing significant minutes. He wasn't a very good prospect coming out of college and we've never seen him succeed against this level of competition so I'd like to see a little better resume for our 5th guard.

I'm 100% fine with this.

He's their 4th point guard. Only way he plays significant minutes is if two of Kyrie/Smart/Rozier are hurt at the same time.

Willing to accept that risk, and would still rather have him in that scenario than Jamal Crawford.

Perfectly fine with Wanamaker as a 12th man.

 

[Saints Rest]

I agree with mcpickl.
Put another way: Stevens has said that he sees the game as essentially having three positions: ball-handler, wing, and big.
In that structure, the Celtics depth chart sets up like this:
(I’m only including those who are likely to see meaningful minutes)
Ball-handler: Kyrie, Marcus, Terry
Wings: JB, JT, GH, MM, Semi
Bigs: Al, Aron, Theis
Plus there will be times that Al essentially plays as a big wing, on both O and D, and times where Marcus or Terry play as a small wing.
That means there’s essentially 2 subs for every position, before you dip into the realm of RWill, Yabu, or the last PG, be that Wanamaker or someone else.

 

[JakeRae]

Hmm, that's not quite accurate. Iguodala can easily play 2 or even 1 — with Curry out, he was the team's starting PG for 1.5 rounds in last year's playoffs, for example. He's not really any different in size, skillset, or role from Livingston (just a slightly better version without the old-school turnaround J). But even if you take him off the list and call him a SF, you have to go a bit farther down than #5 before getting to the Houses and Nunns of the world (who even if they get guaranteed contracts are likely to spend most of their time in Santa Cruz). Right now their G depth chart looks something like:

Curry
Thompson
(Iguodala)
Livingston
Quinn Cook
Pat McCaw (still un-signed, weirdly, but by all accounts they're holding the #14 roster spot open for him, and he's likely to return)
Jacob Evans
Damion Lee (already got one of the guaranteed two-way contracts, possibly by virtue of being Steph's brother-in-law?)
House, Nunn, et al.

As far as the Celtics, you may have similar fluidity/ flexibility in that Tatum (I think?) has the quickness, handles, and defensive chops to occasionally slide down to 2 (for example, in a lineup with Kyrie, Hayward, Morris and Horford?) Which I guess wouldn't preclude adding one more guard — an 82-game season is long, and Kyrie has not always been the most durable guy. But assuming reasonable health from Kyrie, I can't imagine that 5th-6th guard would see any meaningful minutes come playoff time.

I honestly didn't know how to rank the bottom guys on the Warriors, but none of what you post changes anything. I'm not going to count McCaw since he isn't signed, but he still largely illustrates the point.

I do not think it was incorrect to not count Iggy. 2/3 distinctions in todays game are largely arbitrary, and Iggy can obviously play point forward and defend the two. But, he's a forward, to the extent we are defining along traditional positions, not a guard. Similarly, Hayward can definitely play the 2 and Tatum probably can play point forward, but I don't count them as guards.

You do raise why the 5th guard doesn't really matter. People look at Larkin getting real run last year, but that was only because we were down 2 starters. With Hayward and no Irving, Larkin probably doesn't see the court in the playoffs. Even with neither, he played very limited minutes when Smart and Brown were healthy.

 

[HowBoutDemSox]

Zach Lowe on the Celtics small-ball potential:

Boston's Big Five
Forget the buzz about LeBron playing center, or DeMarcus Cousinslumbering into the Warriors' starting five. This quintet is the most exciting group since Golden State stumbled into the Death Lineup: Kyrie Irving, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Gordon Hayward and Al Horford. The level of shooting, playmaking, and switchability on defense (minus Irving) is outrageous.

Think of all the switch-proof pick-and-roll combinations! Irving can roast bigger guys on switches; Brown, Tatum and Horford are well-versed at backing down smaller defenders on the other end of those switches. (Bully ball is the last piece missing in Hayward's game; he worked on it a ton going into last season.)

The Celtics were reluctant to go small with Horford at center and Brown and Tatum splitting power forward duty; Marcus Morris was their crutch. But when they did, the results were scary. Counting only lineups that logged at least 10 minutes and featured Horford at center alongside any four of Irving, Brown, Tatum, Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier, Boston outscored opponents by 75 points in 276 total minutes -- equivalent to about 13 points per game. None of those lineups featured Hayward.

I suspect we will see a lot of this group, and that it will start its fair share of games. Remember: It was Brad Stevens' opening night starting five last season, before catastrophe struck. Aron Baynes may start against beefy centers, but reserving Horford a large slice of power forward minutes will make it hard for Stevens to find enough time for all his perimeter players.

We should probably start preparing nicknames for this lineup. I am bad at nicknames. The best I could do off the top of my head was "Irish Exit." Suggestions?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24736975/zach-lowe-andrew-wiggins-boston-celtics-lineups-most-intriguing-players

 

[Big John]

One rumor I swear I saw (but can't seem to track down) is that Tatum has grown another inch or so and is now close to 6-10. Now that's scary.

 

[InstaFace]

Scary because it would mean his bones haven't fused yet, and so he's more liable for an injury going up against beefer dudes?

 

[nighthob]

Scary because that's going to make him that much more of a defensive terror.

 

[Big John]

Scary because that's going to make him that much more of a defensive terror.

Yes, a 6 foot ten inch 20 year-old who has just about every one of Kobe Bryant'.s best moves down pat, and who gets it on defense. If he stays healthy and continues to work, he's a top 5 player in the league.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Scary because that's going to make him that much more of a defensive terror.

Tatum isn't even filled out physically yet either. He reminds me of Paul George when he first entered the league. In 2-3 years this kid could really be making a Kawhi-like level leap in things go right.

 

[The Social Chair]

I am giddy about this season.

 

[bigq]

I am giddy about this season.

This is a great post for a Monday morning.

 

[slamminsammya]

So beautiful.

 

[HowBoutDemSox]

So beautiful.

But their sneakers are different colors!

 

[JCizzle]

But their sneakers are different colors!

Roger Goodell is simply furious over this picture. He's trying to fine them as we speak.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

First preseason game is Friday. It's almost time.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Roger Goodell is simply furious over this picture. He's trying to fine them as we speak.

Don't give him any ideas

 

[bigq]

nm

 

[Ale Xander]

Roger Goodell is simply furious over this picture. He's trying to fine them as we speak.

Fortunately, there's a jurisdictional problem with that.

/Roeth

 

[BigSoxFan]

I am giddy about this season.

Tatum doesn’t look 6’10. Lies!

 

[Jimbodandy]

Tatum doesn’t look 6’10. Lies!

Funny you say that. My son showed me a different version of that picture where he looks taller than Al. Hard to tell with shoes on, but he looks 6'9"ish to me, based on comparison to JB, GH, and Al.

 

[oumbi]

Well, Brown is listed at 6'7", Haywood at 6'8", and Horford at 6'10". So, based on that picture, 6'9" for Tatum seems about right.

 

[Montana Fan]

Well, Brown is listed at 6'7", Haywood at 6'8", and Horford at 6'10". So, based on that picture, 6'9" for Tatum seems about right.

6'7", 6'8', 6'9" & 6'10". All can shoot the three, handle the ball, pass the ball, take it to the well, body up defensively and switch defensive assignments smoothly. Oolala, "let's get it on".

 

[BigSoxFan]

6'7", 6'8', 6'9" & 6'10". All can shoot the three, handle the ball, pass the ball, take it to the well, body up defensively and switch defensive assignments smoothly. Oolala, "let's get it on".

And the 5th guy is Kyrie Irving...

 

[Cesar Crespo]

6'7", 6'8', 6'9" & 6'10". All can shoot the three, handle the ball, pass the ball, take it to the well, body up defensively and switch defensive assignments smoothly. Oolala, "let's get it on".

Heh, Jaylen isn't much of a play maker yet.

 

[DJnVa]

And the 5th guy is Kyrie Irving...

That's why he's letting his fro grow out.

 

[AimingForYoko]

I am giddy about this season.

I want to melt this picture and shoot it into my veins

 

[InstaFace]

82-0.

 

[benhogan]

Sounds like Kyrie spent some time with Jamal Crawford this Summer and they are tight. If adding him makes for a happier Kyrie, a positive veteran presence in the locker room and a limited role doesn't bother him we could do worse.

 

[joe dokes]

I want to melt this picture and shoot it into my veins

Horford and Tatum both look beefier.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

My God, can this season start yet?

Tatum's teammates seeing something different in him.

Healthy Hayward is wowing teammates.

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

I am giddy about this season.

Pants came off and they may just stay off. Good Lord, this team will be fun to watch.

 

[Kliq]

If you don’t follow basketball that closely; this is a GREAT time to jump on board.

 

[nighthob]

Horford and Tatum both look beefier.

Tatum looks like he added a lot of upper body strength. He shot .537 last year on shots inside 10' (with about 43% of shots coming in that zone), so if he's now able to finish through contact strongly enough to shoot .650 in the paint he's going to be a beast.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

First preseason game in 3 days.

 

[Hendoo]

Grandmaster Flat (Earth) and the Furious Five