Cheesesteaks vs. Chowdah Part I - The Sixers/Celtics Series Thread

[DJnVa]

I can live with me against the world when I'm right.

Here are two screen shots. It's not HD but you can see it clearly enough. Look at where the right block is. In the first picture here, the defender's left foot is next to it. The defender will move, so don't use his feet as a reference point. Use the block, which obviously doesn't move. See where McHale's right foot is in this picture - it's behind his left one as you're looking at the picture, and therefore slightly obscured, but you can see it. Look at the position of the foot with respect to the block.

Now look at his right foot a moment later. It happens so quickly in the video but here's his right foot an instant later, after his up fake.

Now look at this picture. It's the two images, with the same length marker to show the distance gained by McHale's foot - measured from the start of the block to the heel of McHale's right foot.

Now you might be tempted to say, he just pivoted on his heel, but that's not the case. He lifts his heel, so his heel is NOT the pivot point. Look here - again fuzzy but you can tell.

Now go back and watch the move again, not relying on the stills. But now that you've seen these, re-watch it. He very very quickly picks up his right foot, turns it, and puts it back down. There is no other way he gains that much ground on his pivot since his heel is not the pivot point (even if it was, he couldn't gain that much ground).

Once you notice that McHale does this, you'll notice that it actually happens regularly. A very, very quick up and down with the foot, almost always when making the up and under from this side of the key. Almost never from the other side, for whatever reason.

I'll rest my case. You guys are welcome to disagree, of course.

Well, us guys and the thousands of times refs could have called that a travel will have to live with this.

 

[lars10]

Good point. My feeling throughout this series is that the refs frquently swallowed their whistles for long stretches and play was very physical. I didn't see Smart foul Saric on that key turnover (I'm not saying he didn't, I believe the 2-minute report), but the non-call on Saric for planting his shoulder into Smart's chest stunned me. But that just seems like it was par for the course in this series.

As I said at the end of the game thread.. Embiid's post move basically is him dropping his shoulder into the defender's chest. I'm not sure how you can guard him when he's allowed to do that multiple times from six to twelve inches away.. Multiple times Al tried to stand there and take it and kept getting bumped off his spot. I think it's def. stretching the definition of posting up and seems like more of a charge to me, but the line is very blurry. Given how physical it was I'm not sure how you're supposed to guard him...and Al seemed to get called quite a few times for contact more or less created by Embiid going through his body to the hoop.

Not a complaint, but just something I'm not sure I've seen before...seemed unique in that he seemed to start farther off his man before creating contact than most post players do.

 

[amarshal2]

I can live with me against the world when I'm right.

Here are two screen shots. It's not HD but you can see it clearly enough. Look at where the right block is. In the first picture here, the defender's left foot is next to it. The defender will move, so don't use his feet as a reference point. Use the block, which obviously doesn't move. See where McHale's right foot is in this picture - it's behind his left one as you're looking at the picture, and therefore slightly obscured, but you can see it. Look at the position of the foot with respect to the block.

Now look at his right foot a moment later. It happens so quickly in the video but here's his right foot an instant later, after his up fake.

Now look at this picture. It's the two images, with the same length marker to show the distance gained by McHale's foot - measured from the start of the block to the heel of McHale's right foot.

Now you might be tempted to say, he just pivoted on his heel, but that's not the case. He lifts his heel, so his heel is NOT the pivot point. Look here - again fuzzy but you can tell.

Now go back and watch the move again, not relying on the stills. But now that you've seen these, re-watch it. He very very quickly picks up his right foot, turns it, and puts it back down. There is no other way he gains that much ground on his pivot since his heel is not the pivot point (even if it was, he couldn't gain that much ground).

Once you notice that McHale does this, you'll notice that it actually happens regularly. A very, very quick up and down with the foot, almost always when making the up and under from this side of the key. Almost never from the other side, for whatever reason.

I'll rest my case. You guys are welcome to disagree, of course.

He does lift his heel. That was obvious from live. But lifting your heel is not lifting your foot and pivoting on the ball of your foot isn't traveling. I don't see anything unusual with your stills.

 

[trs]

He does lift his heel. That was obvious from live. But lifting your heel is not lifting your foot and pivoting on the ball of your foot isn't traveling. I don't see anything unusual with your stills.

This is true, but this is again where the "pivot" term becomes vague. Very few pivots are compass-point accurate. We all remember playing defense against someone who had picked up the dribble and starts pivoting wildly. We might also remember how after those wild pivots that person managed to move a few inches in a fashion that's much harder to see than just a dragged pivot foot. Low-post moves have taken advantage of this for years, with Olajuwan doing this too, rotating on the ball of his pivot foot and gaining an inch or two to seal the defender during that killer baseline move of his.

Is it a travel? At this point I somewhat prefer the looseness of rules in hockey concerning holding and hooking -- try to make a rule like traveling (or catching a football) too technical and false accuracy becomes a real problem. Can't wait for the first coach's challenge on a pivot-foot violation.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

As I said at the end of the game thread.. Embiid's post move basically is him dropping his shoulder into the defender's chest. I'm not sure how you can guard him when he's allowed to do that multiple times from six to twelve inches away.. Multiple times Al tried to stand there and take it and kept getting bumped off his spot. I think it's def. stretching the definition of posting up and seems like more of a charge to me, but the line is very blurry. Given how physical it was I'm not sure how you're supposed to guard him...and Al seemed to get called quite a few times for contact more or less created by Embiid going through his body to the hoop.

Not a complaint, but just something I'm not sure I've seen before...seemed unique in that he seemed to start farther off his man before creating contact than most post players do.

It's not that unusual. I can't find a good clip but Al does it all the time when posts on the left block.

 

[TheoShmeo]

A friend argues that Baynes fouled Embiid on the play when Rozier eventually knocked the ball away and it went off Embiid.

My take is that both guys were bumping, the bumping was not beyond the normal that goes on in the post and that the refs got the non-call right. Embiid didn't complain much at the time and only half heartedly referenced it in the post-game interview.

The NBA has tweeted out, however, that a foul should have been called. That doesn't make that position correct, and I still do not think it is.

This may have been discussed up thread or in the game thread but if people have views they would like to share, I'd love to read them.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

A friend argues that Baynes fouled Embiid on the play when Rozier eventually knocked the ball away and it went off Embiid.

My take is that both guys were bumping, the bumping was not beyond the normal that goes on in the post and that the refs got the non-call right. Embiid didn't complain much at the time and only half heartedly referenced it in the post-game interview.

The NBA has tweeted out, however, that a foul should have been called. That doesn't make that position correct, and I still do not think it is.

This may have been discussed up thread or in the game thread but if people have views they would like to share, I'd love to read them.

L2M says that Baynes hit Embiid's arm during the shot. I've watched the play a dozen times and my only conclusion is that if the NBA calls that kind of contact regularly, the game is going to devolve into a FT shooting contest - and JT is going to go to the line 20 times a night.

The NBA is virtually impossible referee in real-time because the players are so big and so fast and there is so much contact, all the refs can try to do is be consistent and not miss anything egregious.

Smart clearly traveled at the end there; lucky no ref was looking at his feet.

 

[the moops]

A friend argues that Baynes fouled Embiid on the play when Rozier eventually knocked the ball away and it went off Embiid.

My take is that both guys were bumping, the bumping was not beyond the normal that goes on in the post and that the refs got the non-call right. Embiid didn't complain much at the time and only half heartedly referenced it in the post-game interview.

The NBA has tweeted out, however, that a foul should have been called. That doesn't make that position correct, and I still do not think it is.

This may have been discussed up thread or in the game thread but if people have views they would like to share, I'd love to read them.

Definitely a foul. His arms were not straight up - that is called 90% of the time (obviously not called anywhere near that frequency with seconds left in a playoff game though).

 

[bankshot1]

Screw the 2-minute report.

Wheres the 2nd quarter report from Game 4?

Game 5 was a street fight from the go, a very physical game, and a lot of stuff "slid".

The Saric/Smart bashing in the post was as close to old-school 60-70s hoops as I've seen in a long-time. it was fucking great.

 

[In my lifetime]

I thought there were fouls on all of the final 4 possessions. Just a case of the refs deciding to let the game be decided by the players instead of at the foul line.

 

[tbrown_01923]

i was uncomfortable with the bumping all game. I think Joel and Aron were equally physical... in the end I thought there was going to be some star treatment in favor of Joel, but (I agree with "In My L...") the refs seemed to swallow their whistles and let them play most of the game.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

i was uncomfortable with the bumping all game. I think Joel and Aron were equally physical... in the end I thought there was going to be some star treatment in favor of Joel, but (I agree with "In My L...") the refs seemed to swallow their whistles and let them play most of the game.

It's clear from the video that the first contact was initiated by Embiid - right shoulder into Baynes's chest plus pushing him with his right arm and there was a second round of contact initiated by Embiid that has less of a push.

Baynes may have got Embiid across the arms on the way up but I disagree that it impeded Embiid's shot and after the ball got over Embiid's shoulders, he had a free shot that he just missed.

And JT will tell all of us that foul goes uncalled a lot as he seems to get raked across the arms on his way to basket multiple times a game but it's never called.

 

[TFisNEXT]

Game 5 was a slugfest in the paint and I loved every minute of it. (ok that's a lie, I was pretty grumpy for a lot of the 4th quarter when the Celtics were coughing up their lead)

I would much rather watch the game when the refs let a few more plays slide than being overly cautious and blowing the whistle every 30 seconds. There were a lot of fouls called early in the 4th quarter (I count 9 in the first 4 and a half minutes) which perhaps played a part in letting things slide later in the 4th....in addition to the usual swallowing the whistles late in a close game.

 

[tbrown_01923]

It was a fun game from my perspective and i like the bumping underneath - it reminds me of the hackathons in the front yard on our 9ft rim. I was uncomfortable late because I feared a play in the context of the games level of physicality was going to get called against the celts.

 

[snowmanny]

The problem with letting some rougher stuff go is that it can be hard to figure out what's a foul and it can look very unfair at times. For Celtics fans that was Game 4, and I'm sure Philly fans had their moments.

Although honestly Tatum - and the Celtics generally on fast breaks - way too often will get open space but then dribble the ball right into a defender. He will learn to go around or over, and hopefully the team learns to pass more and drive into defenders less often on the breaks. On a lot of those plays there was technically a foul but they weren't smart moves and it's hard to get the call when you are making a bad play.