Conference Realignment Thread

twothousandone

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OilCanShotTupac said:
When St. John's with Mullin played Georgetown with Ewing in the early 80's, it was appointment television.  I was in junior high school in suburban Hartford at the time, and the whole school would buzz in anticipation of the matchup, and we weren't even in one of the markets in question.
 I was in high school north of NYC, so a bunch of us went to see it live when Mullin and Ewing were juniors.  You must be 42 or so. Do you remember Roosevelt Bouie battling Wayne McKoy (who had Willis Reed as a volunteer coach)? I was in jr high for that.
 
OilCanShotTupac said:
'this points to a larger problem with college basketball nowadays.
 
Those classic St. John's teams, like all teams from the golden age of the Big East, kept their players for four years, and teams built real public identites.  Some pro teams don't even keep their core groups together for four years, after all.  .  .
Now?  Good players are one year and done in college, if they even go to college at all.  .  .  A new cast of characters every year (which also can mean shittier team basketball: see Kentucky's recent NIT exit).
 
Combine that with realignments destroying traditional conference rivalries and sending teams all over the country to play their games, and I think college basketball is looking at a real challenge.  .  . If there is a true star at St. John's, he'll declare for the draft after a year.  I think those days are gone for SJU, I really do.
I agree, but I think you forgot to tell the kids to stay off your lawn.
 

TheBenzingerGame

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Dehere said:
I've been thinking about that attendance issue too and wonder if it will come up at the announcement today. I was at the BET last Thursday and in both the day and evening sessions the place was mostly empty for games involving C7 schools, then filled up for Cuse and ND games.
 
I was there too, and another commonality between the Syracuse and ND games is that they were the second games of their respective sessions.
 
I've gone four of the last five years, and that's usually the case. The place is half-empty at noon for the start of Game 1, and is full from roughly halftime of Game 1 through halftime of Game 2. The same goes (to a lesser degree) for the night session. I think you're just noting the overlap of when all four teams' fans are in the arena.
 
That's not to say Syracuse doesn't bang the place out... there's clearly not a Big East team going forward that will draw like Syracuse. I was at the Georgetown-Syracuse game on Friday, and I fear it will be a while before we experience that kind of electricity again.
 
But the scheduling aspect is worth noting.
 

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If anything, the problem has been masked over the last 10 years because at least one out of Louisville, Syracuse, and UConn has been in just about every final and semifinal session.
 
I was at the 1997 Big East tournament, when the semis involved Georgetown, PC, BC, and Villanova.  There was no one in the building for any of those games.  Same thing for the 2001 final (BC-Pitt).  That is going to be the norm when you have Georgetown, Villanova, and Butler carrying the flag moving forward.
 

URI

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Yeah.  July 1st join date for George Mason.
 

mabrowndog

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RedOctober3829 said:
@GMUWashPost: George Mason and Atlantic 10 both making major announcements at almost same time Monday. Not a coincidence.
 
With Butler, Xavier, Temple & NC-Charlotte leaving, that'll give the conference 13 teams for 2013-14. I'd have to think another shoe drops at some point to get back to an even number, and I don't see anyone else leaving until next year at the earliest (Dayton & St. Louis to the Big East).
 
GMU will serve as a travel partner for GW. Other teams paired up include UMass/URI, LaSalle/St. Joe's, Duquesne/St. Bonaventure, VCU/Richmond, and St. Louis/Dayton. That leaves Fordham unpaired.
 
The MAAC is now at 11 teams after adding Quinnipiac & Monmouth while losing Loyola MD to the Patriot. Siena, a school with a decent amount of fairly recent postseason hoops success, plays in a 14,500-seat arena in downtown Albany. So I'll push my chips to the middle of the table on the Saints.
 

mabrowndog

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Infield Infidel said:
Hypothetical, but Fordham could be paired with URI if UMass was invited to post-Big East
 
Yup, that would work. I just don't see the America 12 going for UMass at this stage. Tulsa & Southern Miss will probably be the schools that get them to their dozen. Maybe a few years from now, once UMass has actually proven it can sustain a program at this level, they'll get a more solid look.
 
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mabrowndog said:
With Butler, Xavier, Temple & NC-Charlotte leaving, that'll give the conference 13 teams for 2013-14. I'd have to think another shoe drops at some point to get back to an even number, and I don't see anyone else leaving until next year at the earliest (Dayton & St. Louis to the Big East).
 
GMU will serve as a travel partner for GW. Other teams paired up include UMass/URI, LaSalle/St. Joe's, Duquesne/St. Bonaventure, VCU/Richmond, and St. Louis/Dayton. That leaves Fordham unpaired.
 
The MAAC is now at 11 teams after adding Quinnipiac & Monmouth while losing Loyola MD to the Patriot. Siena, a school with a decent amount of fairly recent postseason hoops success, plays in a 14,500-seat arena in downtown Albany. So I'll push my chips to the middle of the table on the Saints.
What does travel partnering entail? Dayton is 360 miles from SLU.
 

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Dan to Theo to Ben said:
What does travel partnering entail? Dayton is 360 miles from SLU.
 
In basketball (and other non-football sports), teams will often play consecutive intra-conference road games a couple days apart. When the two campuses are reasonably close, it makes for easier, lower cost travel across the board. For convenience, the schools will travel "together". For instance, VCU will play at UMass while Richmond's at URI, then they'll switch opponents.
 
Dayton & St. Louis are an extreme case and not the norm -- and certainly not ideal. St. Louis had been paired with Butler, and Dayton was with Xavier. But now that the Bulldogs and Musketeers are out of the A-10, SLU and UD will be paired up for the time being.
 

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Stony Brook would make a lot of sense, even though on paper that's a pretty big leap in terms of competition (from America East).  I think they could handle that jump easily, and would bring some New York market exposure.  Not sure the SUNY politics would allow them to leave Albany and Binghamton, though.
 
Siena is a good option.  Certainly safer in the short term, and great fan support locally, but the Albany media market is pretty dead.  They also have a pretty good arrangement right now in a league made up of very likeminded institutions with a compact geographic footprint surrounding NYC.
 
They've been down for a long time now, but Delaware would bring a lot of the same things Siena does, with a larger student body and more of a history of success on the field/court.
 

mabrowndog

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Captaincoop said:
Stony Brook would make a lot of sense, even though on paper that's a pretty big leap in terms of competition (from America East).  I think they could handle that jump easily, and would bring some New York market exposure.  Not sure the SUNY politics would allow them to leave Albany and Binghamton, though.
 
Siena is a good option.  Certainly safer in the short term, and great fan support locally, but the Albany media market is pretty dead.  They also have a pretty good arrangement right now in a league made up of very likeminded institutions with a compact geographic footprint surrounding NYC.
 
They've been down for a long time now, but Delaware would bring a lot of the same things Siena does, with a larger student body and more of a history of success on the field/court.
 
The bold is why I laughed out loud at the rumors that had Siena joining the C-7 in the new Big East. That ain't happening. Like, ever. Not even if Siena's president succeeds Francis as the next Pope.
 
Media markets aren't quite as important to conferences like the A-10 now that mid-majors are having to replace larger schools or those in bigger markets with smaller schools/smaller markets. The A-10 is never going to see a Big East type of TV deal. But as long as Olean, New York continues to host an A-10 institution, the Albany-Troy-Schenectady MSA will be a step up for the league.
 

mabrowndog

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Infield Infidel said:
Georgia Southern and Appalachian St jumping to the Sun Belt. Per SB Nation
 
Great additions. This gives the SBC 10 teams for football, and likely sets up a 12-team, two-division format for basketball where WKU and App St are the only outliers in terms of travel partners, with other 10 paired off by state (GA, AL, AR, LA, TX). I think they'll manage (* - non-football member).
 
EAST
Appalachian St
Georgia Southern
Georgia St
South Alabama
Troy
Western Kentucky
 
WEST
Arkansas State
Arkansas-Little Rock*
Louisiana-Lafayette
Louisiana-Monroe
Texas-Arlington*
Texas State
 

mabrowndog

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mabrowndog said:
The MAAC is now at 11 teams after adding Quinnipiac & Monmouth while losing Loyola MD to the Patriot. Siena, a school with a decent amount of fairly recent postseason hoops success, plays in a 14,500-seat arena in downtown Albany. So I'll push my chips to the middle of the table on the Saints.
 
Well, that didn't take long...
 
 
Chris DiSano ‏@CDiSano44
Hearing from sources that Siena is scheduling a press conference for this Weds. Rumored target of #A10. Timing pretty coincidental.
 

URI

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Could be a new coach.  Chris is pretty non-committal about it.
 

mabrowndog

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Yup, he followed that tweet with this:
 
 
Chris DiSano @CDiSano44
Siena is searching for coach too. So to clarify, hearing there is a presser on Weds. Could be coach or realignment. But timing interesting.
 

mabrowndog

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From the Albany Times-Union reporter who covers the Saints:
 
 

 
@MarkSingelais 9h
Siena president Rev. Kevin Mullen said today he hasn't been contacted by the Atlantic 10. Siena rumored as a candidate to join A-10.

 
‏@MarkSingelais 9h
Regarding the coaching search, Rev. Mullen said Siena has not had any candidates on campus yet.
 
 
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mabrowndog said:
In basketball (and other non-football sports), teams will often play consecutive intra-conference road games a couple days apart. When the two campuses are reasonably close, it makes for easier, lower cost travel across the board. For convenience, the schools will travel "together". For instance, VCU will play at UMass while Richmond's at URI, then they'll switch opponents.
 
Dayton & St. Louis are an extreme case and not the norm -- and certainly not ideal. St. Louis had been paired with Butler, and Dayton was with Xavier. But now that the Bulldogs and Musketeers are out of the A-10, SLU and UD will be paired up for the time being.
Sorry, I get how travel partnering works for Richmond/VCU or Lasalle/St. Joe's, I mean what would entail specifically for SLU/Dayton? Both fly into Indianapolis? then one bus to SLU and another to Dayton?
 
For comparison, New York City is closer to Richmond, VA  than SLU is to U-Dayton.
 

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The teams don't actually travel together.  The point of the arrangement is to have a schedule whereby teams are always either away-from-home for an entire weekend, or home for an entire weekend, with minimum travel on the road trip.
 
The Ivy League has it down pat - Harvard knows that it will have a Penn/Princeton weekend, where it plays away games at Princeton and at Penn, and then a Columbia/Yale weekend, with games at those two sites, etc.  Then on another weekend during the year, Penn and Princeton will come visit Harvard/Dartmouth and the Crimson will be home all weekend.
 
Ideally in a travel partner format, the league members save money on travel because they aren't traveling to Penn to play one game on Friday, then traveling home to play on Saturday.  Every trip is a two-for, with no travel at all on other weekends, and knocking off what would be duplicate travel miles (traveling to Philly from Boston for one game, and then later traveling to Princeton from Boston for another).  Instead, you only do the bus trip down the Jersey Turnpike once, and get two games completed.
 

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For some reason, while taking a dump I started thinking about what the Missouri Valley might do to replace Creighton. This year Nebraska-Omaha played its first season of Div I hoops in the Summit after making the transition from Div II. The Mavericks play in a brand-new arena (Ralston, though their D-I hockey team plays at CenturyLink Center, which is also home to Creighton hoops) and would seem an ideal plug-and-play replacement for Creighton's market.
 

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mabrowndog said:
With 12 FB schools, I wonder if they'll adopt a two-division set-up with a championship game.
 
That makes sense to me.
 
 
EAST
Appalachian St
Georgia Southern
Georgia St
South Alabama
Troy
Western Kentucky
 
WEST
Arkansas State
Idaho*
Louisiana-Lafayette
Louisiana-Monroe
New Mexico St*
Texas State
 
Then again, one of the GSU's could end up in C-USA by then
 
It seems like the Sun Belt looked at the FCS schools that could potentially make the jump, and thought, heck, there's two independent FBS schools just sitting there, which is a smarter move to me. On top of that, the schools were in the Sun Belt previously. It's a better fit, and only having one sport going to Idaho every other year isn't that onerous. I think it's a win for all parties involved.
 

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Infield Infidel said:
It seems like the Sun Belt looked at the FCS schools that could potentially make the jump, and thought, heck, there's two independent FBS schools just sitting there, which is a smarter move to me. On top of that, the schools were in the Sun Belt previously. It's a better fit, and only having one sport going to Idaho every other year isn't that onerous. I think it's a win for all parties involved.
 
One potential football negative of having NMSU and ID along with 2 schools making the FCS jump: It'll be more difficult for the contending Sun Belt teams to build up a good enough rating to lead the Group of Five (A-12, C-USA, MAC, MWC, SBC) and gain a slot in one of the new NCAA playoff bowls.
 

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OilCanShotTupac said:
 
What a shitshow for UConn.  They're the ugly girl left over at the end of the dance who no one wants to leave with.
I would like to think we're the hot girl that everyone is afraid to ask out.
 

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Dan Murfman said:
<br /><br />What a shitshow for UConn. They're the ugly girl left over at the end of the dance who no one wants to leave with.<br /><br /><br />I would like to think we're the hot girl that everyone is afraid to ask out.
<br /><br />Most accurately, they're the plain looking girl that gets ignored. UConn needs to take off their librarian glasses, get their hair out of a pony tail, and sex it up.
 

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UConn is the girl who's not eligible for the dance.
 

cannonball 1729

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Infield Infidel said:
Georgia Southern and Appalachian St jumping to the Sun Belt. Per SB Nation
 
With those departures and College of Charleston (Colonial), Socon will be down to seven football schools and nine basketball.  Speculation is that they'll go after Mercer, Kennesaw St., East Tennessee State, or VMI to help refill the ranks.
 
Although I do wonder if College of Charleston might be reconsidering their move.
 

mabrowndog

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cannonball 1729 said:
With those departures and College of Charleston (Colonial), Socon will be down to seven football schools and nine basketball.  Speculation is that they'll go after Mercer, Kennesaw St., East Tennessee State, or VMI to help refill the ranks.
 
Although I do wonder if College of Charleston might be reconsidering their move.
 
Based on the geography and travel costs alone, they'd have to be. Every conference foe except NC-Wilmington is at least 500 miles away. Five of them are north of the Mason-Dixon line, between 575 and 975 miles away. With the major CAA basketball draws all gone (ODU, VCU, GMU), there's no longer any benefit for Charleston, a school that sponsors 19 other sports teams besides men's hoops. UNCW isn't exactly a short commute either -- 180 non-highway miles along the coast.
 
I realize CoC is a pretty well-off school, and can afford to not only send their kids and staffs on all these trips, but to do so first class. But what do the Cougars get in return from the CAA for their investment?
 

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And East Carolina will be added as a full member when it joins next year. Initially they were going to be football-only members.
 
As of July 2014, 9 of the league's 11 members will be C-USA defectors.
 
What a shitshow for UConn.  They're the ugly girl left over at the end of the dance who no one wants to leave with.
They're the girl at the bar at 4 am who gets picked up when all the dudes lower their standards. They'll be in th ACC soon enough
 

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Uconn is the somewhat hot girl at the bar who has pissed off this little b*tch who happens to be friends with some popular dudes who are looking for a good time. Of course the b*tch has lost her looks quickly but the single dudes are loyal friends...for now...
 

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mabrowndog said:
Based on the geography and travel costs alone, they'd have to be. Every conference foe except NC-Wilmington is at least 500 miles away.
William & Mary is only like 460, although that hardly undermines your point.
 

mabrowndog

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Awesome Fossum said:
Oh, you have the wrong city. William & Mary is in Williamsburg, VA.
 
Christ, I'm an idiot.
 
I'm also a Steely Dan fan, and the following lyrics have been on my brain of late:
 
I remember the thirty-five sweet goodbyes 
When you put me on the Wolverine 
Up to Annandale 
It was still September 
When your daddy was quite surprised 
To find you with the working girls 
In the county jail 
I was smoking with the boys upstairs 
When I heard about the whole affair 
I said oh no 
William and Mary won't do 
 
Even though I know damn well that in their case Annandale refers to Annandale-on-Hudson, NY, home of Bard College where SD co-founders Donald Fagen & Walter Becker met, I still couldn't avoid making that subconscious error.
 
Anyway, as you note, it's still a long-ass fucking drive from Charleston.
 

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mabrowndog said:
Christ, I'm an idiot.
 
I'm also a Steely Dan fan, and the following lyrics have been on my brain of late:
 
 
Even though I know damn well that in their case Annandale refers to Annandale-on-Hudson, NY, home of Bard College where SD co-founders Donald Fagen & Walter Becker met, I still couldn't avoid making that subconscious error.
 
To fill in the "William and Mary won't do": Bard used to be called "the William and Mary of the north", which Fagen thought was unacceptably high praise.
 

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mabrowndog said:
Based on the geography and travel costs alone, they'd have to be. Every conference foe except NC-Wilmington is at least 500 miles away. Five of them are north of the Mason-Dixon line, between 575 and 975 miles away. With the major CAA basketball draws all gone (ODU, VCU, GMU), there's no longer any benefit for Charleston, a school that sponsors 19 other sports teams besides men's hoops. UNCW isn't exactly a short commute either -- 180 non-highway miles along the coast.
 
I realize CoC is a pretty well-off school, and can afford to not only send their kids and staffs on all these trips, but to do so first class. But what do the Cougars get in return from the CAA for their investment?
 
Incidentally, the CoC just released a statement yesterday:
 
 
 
 "We learned recently that George Mason University, a member of the Colonial Athletic Association, will leave the conference at the end of the current academic year.  
 
At a time of instability and uncertainty in athletic conference affiliation, announcements of this sort are not surprising.   The College of Charleston remains strongly committed to the Colonial Athletic Association.  The strength and quality of the Colonial member institutions, both academically and athletically, continue to be an excellent match for the College of Charleston.
 
We look forward to a long, happy, and exciting association with the Colonial."
 

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Seeing the conversation on the previous page about whether the C7 will be able to fill MSG for the conference tournament got me thinking about the financial viability of the the new Big East.  While I acknowledge that the C7 had no choice but to break off, and they're starting off with a pretty good TV deal, I think its possible the conference crashes and burns in 20 years or so.
 
Why?  Well, its been reported that Georgetown loses about $30,000 per game at the Verizon Center. Georgetown has never had an adequate on-campus facility, and has always been forced to rent out DC's NBA arena (the Capital Centre first, then Verizon when it was built).  Renting out an NBA arena wasn't a problem at the height of the Big East's power and popularity, but they've been really struggling to fill it in recent years (which is why they lose nearly $30,000/game) and that is only going to get harder without UConn/Syracuse/Pitt et al coming to town.
 
If you take a look around at the rest of the new Big East schools, most of them are in the same boat.  They're forced to rent out a major arena because they have nothing on campus:
 
-Marquette:  Rents out the Bradley Center, only on-campus facility is the Al McGuire Center which seats just 4,000.
 
-Villanova:  Used to play many of its games at the Sixers' arena, now plays almost exclusively at the Pavilion, which seats only 6,500.
 
-Seton Hall:  Rents out the Prudential Center, only on-campus facility is Walsh Gymnasium which seats just 2,600.
 
-St. John's:  Rents out MSG for about half their games, plays the other half at Carnesecca Arena which seats just 5,600.
 
-PC:  rents out the Dunkin Donuts Center, only on-campus facility is Alumni Hall, which seats just 2,600.
 
-DePaul:  rents out Allstate Arena, only on-campus facility is the Sullivan Center which seats just 3,000.
 
-Xavier:  plays all games at the on-ampus Cintas Center which seats 10,500.
 
-Butler:  plays all games at the on-campus Hinkle Fieldhouse which seats 10,000
 
-St. Louis:  plays all games at the on-campus Chaifetz Arena, which seats 10,000.
 
So, essentially, each of the C7 schools is forced to rent out a major arena because they don't have adequate on-campus facilities for big time college basketball.  If Georgetown, the premier basketball school in the conference, is losing money under such an arrangement, then how the heck are schools like Seton Hall and DePaul going to stay afloat?
 
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but it seems to me that many of these schools are operating with an out-dated business model--one that relied on the big attendance and big TV money that came with the old Big East.  If they don't take in the same revenue in the new Big East (and if they don't have an adequate on-campus facility to fall back on), won't most if not all of these athletic department's start bleeding money? The Fox Sports deal might keep them afloat for a while, but without on-campus arenas I can see a lot of these schools being forced to take a hatchet to their athletics budgets in the near future.
 

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Orel Miraculous said:
Seeing the conversation on the previous page about whether the C7 will be able to fill MSG for the conference tournament got me thinking about the financial viability of the the new Big East.  While I acknowledge that the C7 had no choice but to break off, and they're starting off with a pretty good TV deal, I think its possible the conference crashes and burns in 20 years or so.
 
Why?  Well, its been reported that Georgetown loses about $30,000 per game at the Verizon Center. Georgetown has never had an adequate on-campus facility, and has always been forced to rent out DC's NBA arena (the Capital Centre first, then Verizon when it was built).  Renting out an NBA arena wasn't a problem at the height of the Big East's power and popularity, but they've been really struggling to fill it in recent years (which is why they lose nearly $30,000/game) and that is only going to get harder without UConn/Syracuse/Pitt et al coming to town.
 
If you take a look around at the rest of the new Big East schools, most of them are in the same boat.  They're forced to rent out a major arena because they have nothing on campus:
 
-Marquette:  Rents out the Bradley Center, only on-campus facility is the Al McGuire Center which seats just 4,000.
 
-Villanova:  Used to play many of its games at the Sixers' arena, now plays almost exclusively at the Pavilion, which seats only 6,500.
 
-Seton Hall:  Rents out the Prudential Center, only on-campus facility is Walsh Gymnasium which seats just 2,600.
 
-St. John's:  Rents out MSG for about half their games, plays the other half at Carnesecca Arena which seats just 5,600.
 
-PC:  rents out the Dunkin Donuts Center, only on-campus facility is Alumni Hall, which seats just 2,600.
 
-DePaul:  rents out Allstate Arena, only on-campus facility is the Sullivan Center which seats just 3,000.
 
-Xavier:  plays all games at the on-ampus Cintas Center which seats 10,500.
 
-Butler:  plays all games at the on-campus Hinkle Fieldhouse which seats 10,000
 
-St. Louis:  plays all games at the on-campus Chaifetz Arena, which seats 10,000.
 
So, essentially, each of the C7 schools is forced to rent out a major arena because they don't have adequate on-campus facilities for big time college basketball.  If Georgetown, the premier basketball school in the conference, is losing money under such an arrangement, then how the heck are schools like Seton Hall and DePaul going to stay afloat?
 
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but it seems to me that many of these schools are operating with an out-dated business model--one that relied on the big attendance and big TV money that came with the old Big East.  If they don't take in the same revenue in the new Big East (and if they don't have an adequate on-campus facility to fall back on), won't most if not all of these athletic department's start bleeding money? The Fox Sports deal might keep them afloat for a while, but without on-campus arenas I can see a lot of these schools being forced to take a hatchet to their athletics budgets in the near future.
 
I mean, G-town might be losing 30g's a game (any source for this?) but they had 17 home games this year, and a bunch of them were sold out or within a couple thousand of being sold out, so they make up for some money there.  so based on the 30,000 a game, (for the Liberty-type games) you are talking about 300-350G's a year...not a small sum, but when the TV deal gives 4.1 million a year, they can take they hit.
 
Now, as for the other BE schools, attendance hasn't been that great for those smaller type games.  They survived on less than 4.1 mill a year before, I am sure they can still do it.