Conference Realignment Thread

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gtg807y

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BigMike said:
I guess my view of Citadel must be tied to living in the South during their heyday apparently  Having been down in Atlanta in the late 80s early 90s.
 
I just view the Sunbelt as such an insignificant conference that anything that happens down there just doesn't rate more than a tiny blip on the radar
 
The Sun Belt could be a pretty solid regional football conference in about a decade, with two Georgia schools joining (one in Atlanta, the other a historically very successful FCS team), another historically successful FCS team in Appalachian State joining, and some decent programs like Troy and ULM already there. That assumes the newcomers will have time and stability to grow as FBS programs, neither of which are for certain. 
 
As for New Mexico State and Idaho, which join as affiliate members for football in 2014... well, if I counted the comings and goings right, they'll have enough members for a conference championship game. So they have that going for them, which is nice. Those two schools are indeed current FBS members, which is more than can be said for the rest of the Sun Belt's additions. But they're also way the heck away from the rest of the Sun Belt schools, and also they're joining the Sun Belt because it really was about their last choice if they wanted to stay at the FBS level. They were the last two schools without a seat in the realignment musical chairs. It's not good news when of the seven teams joining, only two are actual FBS programs, and they are the ones you might possibly be better off without.
 

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gtg807y said:
The Sun Belt could be a pretty solid regional football conference in about a decade, with two Georgia schools joining (one in Atlanta, the other a historically very successful FCS team), another historically successful FCS team in Appalachian State joining, and some decent programs like Troy and ULM already there. That assumes the newcomers will have time and stability to grow as FBS programs, neither of which are for certain. 
 
As for New Mexico State and Idaho, which join as affiliate members for football in 2014... well, if I counted the comings and goings right, they'll have enough members for a conference championship game. So they have that going for them, which is nice. Those two schools are indeed current FBS members, which is more than can be said for the rest of the Sun Belt's additions. But they're also way the heck away from the rest of the Sun Belt schools, and also they're joining the Sun Belt because it really was about their last choice if they wanted to stay at the FBS level. They were the last two schools without a seat in the realignment musical chairs. It's not good news when of the seven teams joining, only two are actual FBS programs, and they are the ones you might possibly be better off without.
 
It could be interesting.  Georgia State is going to be a fascinating case to watch moving forward.   They have gone guns a blazing forward jumping from no football program to div 1 in 3 or 4 years. 
 
The good news is it is in Atlanta, and should be able to take 3rd tier Georgia Talent, which is still very good (probably better than what you get once you get past the top 4-5 kids in Mass every year).  But it is just going to be a tough program to sell.   No real campus,  not sure if they are building athletic dorms, but I still think most of their dorm rooms are in the old Olympic Village,   a nice facility, but 30 minutes from campus. I guess the Georgia Dome or whatever replaces it is still a much better option than say UMass playing at Gillette, but still not on campus.   
 
Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens. Maybe they become UCF or USF,   but it could also be a just epic failure
 

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BigMike said:
Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens. Maybe they become UCF or USF,   but it could also be a just epic failure
 
It's starting out as the "epic failure".  No fans, not many wins.
 
Oh, and The Citadel is awesome just for inspiring this:
 
 

mabrowndog

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One other nice thing inspired by The Citadel is this blog by an alum:
 
The Sports Arsenal
 
His take on the rumored SoCon additions is a great read. It includes insights on Elon's possible move to CAA, and comments on Davidson &  the A-10 (which he posted before Thamel's tweet proclaiming it a done deal.)
 

gtg807y

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BigMike said:
It could be interesting.  Georgia State is going to be a fascinating case to watch moving forward.   They have gone guns a blazing forward jumping from no football program to div 1 in 3 or 4 years. 
 
The good news is it is in Atlanta, and should be able to take 3rd tier Georgia Talent, which is still very good (probably better than what you get once you get past the top 4-5 kids in Mass every year).  But it is just going to be a tough program to sell.   No real campus,  not sure if they are building athletic dorms, but I still think most of their dorm rooms are in the old Olympic Village,   a nice facility, but 30 minutes from campus. I guess the Georgia Dome or whatever replaces it is still a much better option than say UMass playing at Gillette, but still not on campus.   
 
Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens. Maybe they become UCF or USF,   but it could also be a just epic failure
 
The Olympic Village dorms that face the Connector now belong to Georgia Tech, but State has been increasing their student housing in the downtown area near campus (don't know anything about athletes' dorms though). I finished law school there about a year ago and thought the campus "feel" was increasing, though there were still plenty of undergrads walking around in GT or UGA shirts during college football season. It's going to take a while for them to develop a fan base of young alumni who feel like GSU is "their" team. The Dome is fairly close to campus but not really a good walk (both in distance and safety). Maybe there will be better public transit in the downtown area eventually to get people from campus to the Dome.
 
On the field, having a facility like the Dome is a positive, and when they move into the new stadium they'll be in presumably a state-of-the-art facility. Georgia has a lot of talent even in UGA, GT, and neighboring powers' leftovers. Georgia Southern moving up to FBS will cut into what GSU can get - an established program in the same conference, where as before they were going to be alone in Georgia among second-tier FBS conference schools. Mercer and Kennesaw State are starting FCS programs as well to provide extra competition, and I really wouldn't be surprised to see one of those schools at the FBS level soon, probably in the Sun Belt.
 

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I'm kinda surprised C-USA didn't go after Georgia St or Georgia So., instead of taking both 

It's strange that Georgia hasn't had a second-tier FBS schools until now. Bama has had UAB for a long time, So Miss has been around even longer, and Florida has 4 schools below the Big 3. 
 

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Johns Hopkins is going to try to join a conference for D1 mens lax only. They were previously rumored to be going to the Big Ten, but there is no confirmation of that in email from Ronald Daniels (University President). Here is the important part:
 
"The committee's unanimous conclusion, transmitted to me last week, is that Johns Hopkins and its men's lacrosse student-athletes would best be served by our seeking affiliation for men's lacrosse only with an NCAA Division I conference. That conclusion was based on committee members' conviction that such a move will provide our university and history's most-successful lacrosse program the best opportunity for continued leadership at the highest level of intercollegiate competition. It was based on their conviction that joining a Division I conference for men's lacrosse is the best course for our athletes, our program and our university, and that it can be done without compromise to our academic integrity or athletic traditions.

I agree with the committee's analysis and have accepted its recommendations. Tom Calder and Dave Pietramala are also in agreement. Together, we intend to pursue an affiliation. As I mentioned in my March message, there already have been expressions of interest. I will report to you when there is a conclusion to these discussions.

The special committee's report is available online. To be clear, we intend, as previously announced, to compete as a Division I independent in women's lacrosse. We remain deeply and philosophically committed to continued participation in NCAA Division III competition in all other sports."
 

mabrowndog

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There are three LAX power conferences that are all down to 5 teams now. All of them would love to add the Jays:
 
ACC - Duke, UNC, N.Dame, Syracuse, VA
Big Ten - Mich, OH St, PSU, Rutgers, MD
Big East - Gtown, Marquette, Prov, Nova, St. John's
 
The ACC makes the most sense for them, IMO. They'd have the Baltimore market to themselves. Travel is pretty much a wash between the ACC and Big Ten. The Big East is a long shot. No matter what happens, JH will continue to play MD every year (ditto for Loyola and Towson) so it's not like they'd have to join the B1G to preserve the rivalry. There's nothing forcing them in any direction.
 
Let the bidding commence.
 

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mabrowndog said:
There are three LAX power conferences that are all down to 5 teams now. All of them would love to add the Jays:
 
ACC - Duke, UNC, N.Dame, Syracuse, VA
Big Ten - Mich, OH St, PSU, Rutgers, MD
Big East - Gtown, Marquette, Prov, Nova, St. John's
 
The ACC makes the most sense for them, IMO. They'd have the Baltimore market to themselves. Travel is pretty much a wash between the ACC and Big Ten. The Big East is a long shot. No matter what happens, JH will continue to play MD every year (ditto for Loyola and Towson) so it's not like they'd have to join the B1G to preserve the rivalry. There's nothing forcing them in any direction.
 
Let the bidding commence.
When you say "let the bidding commence," I assume you don't mean that literally, right? I know very little about the economics of college lacrosse, but I assume its not a revenue generator for any conference.am I wrong about that? I understand JH is a power and that major conferences would probably be happy to have them, but there won't be any financial consideration, will there? I read the JHU report, and indicated the move would actually increase the program's cost, and it was unlikely there'd be any revenue sharing.
 

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The ACC makes the most sense from a rivalry standpoint. Hopkins plays Cuse, UVA, UNC every year and just recently drop Duke from the annual schedule. The wild card in all of this is the research money involved in joining the Big Ten and the Committee on Institutional Cooperation (Big Ten schools plus the University of Chicago). Hopkins is a research university and if joining the Committee on Institutional Cooperation can help bring in even more research money than that would tough to turn down. No matter what conference they join Hopkins would probably require keeping their annual games with Maryland, Syracuse, Virginia, Navy, and Loyola.
 

mabrowndog

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WayBackVazquez said:
When you say "let the bidding commence," I assume you don't mean that literally, right? I know very little about the economics of college lacrosse, but I assume its not a revenue generator for any conference.am I wrong about that? I understand JH is a power and that major conferences would probably be happy to have them, but there won't be any financial consideration, will there? I read the JHU report, and indicated the move would actually increase the program's cost, and it was unlikely there'd be any revenue sharing.
 
You're correct on the scale, and that was definitely more of a tongue-in-cheek line. But hey, even penny stocks can be bid up if they're attractive enough. While LAX is clearly not a revenue-maker today (fewer than 3,000 showed up for the quarterfinal doubleheader in College Park yesterday, while more than 117,000 attended a 2-minute horse race at Pimlico), it's one of the fastest-growing US sports at all levels of national participation. It's gained a stronger foothold on ESPN's programming slate (this was the first year that every single tournament game was broadcast live on a network channel), and the new FOX and MSNBC contracts with the Big East and Ivy respectively call for enhanced LAX exposure. Ditto for the BTN and possibly the Pac 12 Network should the latter decide to go live as an NCAA conference at some point (the women are starting up this fall as a Title IX balancer, and a number of games will be aired.)
 
Even if the extra TV exposure won't provide a revenue windfall for the sport as a whole, LAX will continue to be an essential loss-leader for the networks. It's content for them to air that's both compact (2-hour games) and live. At the very least, it'll be what Aussie Rules Football, Timbersports, and the World's Strongest Man competitions were to ESPN in that network's infancy. It may not be worth a lot, but it's worth something. And in the case of Hopkins, it's the very best the sport has to offer.
 
JH isn't being dragged kicking & screaming into conference affiliation. They could easily remain an independent and still play a challenging slate of traditional rivals every year. So why are they even considering it? Especially when they already have a contract with ESPNU that was just renewed? I mean, JH is in the driver's seat. The other conferences want them. Two of the conferences MUST get to 6 teams to gain auto-bid status. So what's in it for JH? Wouldn't financial incentives have to be a major driver here? By the way, that report states "the Committee never considered potential gains in revenue or profit from conference alignment as a deciding factor in its deliberations." Not sure I fully believe that, but even if it's not a "deciding factor" I'm certain it was a factor.
 
Do I expect a bidding war on the scale of Notre Dame football? Of course not. Do I expect the three contending conferences to one-up each other in hopes of adding the most revered school in the history of a rapidly growing sport to their marquee? Absolutely.
 

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I guess. I don't know why the majority of the Big Ten schools, who wouldn't be in this conference, would vote to give a penny to an otherwise non-member lacrosse school. Nor really why the 5 who would be in the league would want to do so for a sport that already loses money.

Edit: And what I've read is that as parity has increased at the same time at-large slots in the tourney have shrunk, JH's chances of making the tourney have become less certain. Not making it this year seemed to drive that point home, and so now JH wants the extra shot at qualifying through the AQ route. So, a competition-based decision, not a financial one.
 

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WayBackVazquez said:
I guess. I don't know why the majority of the Big Ten schools, who wouldn't be in this conference, would vote to give a penny to an otherwise non-member lacrosse school. Nor really why the 5 who would be in the league would want to do so for a sport that already loses money.
Does the Big Ten have associate members in any sport? I'm not sure why they would go this route for lacrosse when they haven't been willing to do it in, say, hockey.

If the auto bid is a real issue - and I suspect it is not, because the NCAA gives out waivers on that rule every year - the ACC could have another current member playing ACC Lacrosse within a year or two.

I could definitely see the Big East adding an associate member, otherwise America East or a conference like that seems like a better fit for a Lacrosse-only addition.
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
Strong indications are that Elon will be joining the CAA in 2013 and that Albany will be joining either 2013 or 2014.....
SI's Pete Thamel is reporting the Elon move will be announced tomorrow.
 

mabrowndog

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The denials from Albany's AD during yesterday's press conference seem a lot more firm:
 
Asked if UAlbany would stay in the America East for the 2013-14 academic year, McElroy responded, "Absolutely, and for the foreseeable future."
 
Then there are these three not-so-insignificant factors...
 
UAlbany also might face a drastically larger athletic budget, partly because of increased travel costs.
 
In addition, the America East requires schools that leave its membership to pay an exit fee of $1 million for less than two years' notice or $500,000 for more than two years' notice.
 
The America East also has a rule that bans schools that are leaving the league from participating in any conference championships. UAlbany is hosting the America East basketball tournament next year.
 
For the CAA's part, Yeager certainly sounds like they're still on the prowl for members:
 
CAA commissioner Tom Yeager declined to comment on whether his league has or would pursue UAlbany as a full-fledged member.
 
He did say the CAA, which has members from Boston to Charleston, S.C., isn't necessarily done expanding and still could look northward.
 
"We're tracking a number of potentially attractive candidates, but kind of one step at a time," said Yeager, without being specific.
 
I wonder if this decision forces the hand of the alleged non-FB block (Hofstra, Drexel, NU) and brings Stony Brook aboard in all sports?
 

mabrowndog

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I came across an entry on Any Given Saturday from a CCSU poster that makes some sense on the surface.
 
America East could sponsor football by adding CCSU and Bryant, bringing its 4 FB-playing members (UNH, ME, SB, Albany) back into the fold for all sports, and perhaps add URI & Monmouth as FB-only members for an 8-team FB setup with campuses in a reasonably close swath from Orono ME to Long Branch NJ (~400 crow miles). So it would still be a bus league for all sports.
 
For schools with budget/travel concerns, and those worried about making a commitment to move when the realignment ripples are likely to continue (i.e. leaving for presumably greener pastures that might become fallow), I can't see why this wouldn't be a good solution. Even if SB joins the CAA in all sports or makes some other similar move down the line, their departure wouldn't preclude this arrangement. You'd still have 10 all-sports members, and 7 for football.
 

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Johns Hopkins will announce today that they are joining the Big 10 as an associate member for LAX only.
 
Denver will join the Big East for LAX.
 

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Denver's move to the BE is effective next season, while both the Big Ten league formation and JH's membership take place in 2015. I assume that means Michigan & Ohio St remain in the ECAC next year. What's unclear is whether Maryland & Rutgers will be joining them there on a temporary basis, or play as independents for a year along with Hopkins.
 
Regardless, some more shuffling is in the offing. The ECAC will be left with 4 schools in 2015 (Hobart, Bellarmine, Fairfield, Air Force), while the NEC will have just 5 (Bryant, Robert Morris, Sacred Heart, Wagner, Mt. St. Mary's). The CAA will drop to the requisite 6 once Penn State leaves (Delaware, Drexel Hofstra, UMass, St. Joe's, Towson). 
 

DJnVa

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Hot and heavy rumors of JMU jumping to CUSA, with an announcement soon.
 
Unless someone else goes with them, that likely means UTEP (MWC), Rice (MWC), or maybe Southern Miss (AAC) is leaving CUSA.
 

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I think the only real fit for JMU is the SunBelt, which has 11 and needs a team. 
 
C-USA was dumb to take both FAU and FIU, to moribund programs that are #6 and #7 in Florida, instead of taking just one and adding one of Georgia Southern or Georgia St, which are #3 and #4 in Georgia. Spread the wealth and recruit in both states. Theoretically they could go add a Georgia school but that would mean going to 16. I don't think that'll happen
 
Sun Belt might catch C-USA in the next five years, at least in quality if not quantity
 

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I think the only real fit for JMU is the SunBelt, which has 11 and needs a team. 
 
C-USA was dumb to take both FAU and FIU, to moribund programs that are #6 and #7 in Florida, instead of taking just one and adding one of Georgia Southern or Georgia St, which are #3 and #4 in Georgia. Spread the wealth and recruit in both states. Theoretically they could go add a Georgia school but that would mean going to 16. I don't think that'll happen
 
Sun Belt might catch C-USA in the next five years, at least in quality if not quantity


There's a not insane argument that Florida, FSU, and Miami are all better than the #1 team in Georgia; if not, they're at least pretty comparable. Given that, it's not insane to expect that as they grow the #7 program in FL will be as good as the #4 team in GA is it? The relative state populations make that a plausible position even if per capita player production is about even.
 

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I don't think its an insane argument, but of course that's cyclical and structural. But
1. It's not totally an argument about program strength. It's about spreading recruiting reach and having a presence in two states as opposed to confining to one corner of one state. C-USA missed a chance to have a presence in Georgia, which one would think would be in the heart of their footprint. They have a team in every state from from Virginia to Texas except Georgia and SC, and Charlotte is right on thr SC border. Why would a broadcaster in Georgia care about C-USA?

2. I think it'd be better to have the #6 program in Fl and #3 program in Georgia, than #6 and #7 in Florida. What good is it to have the guaranteed weakest program in the state? Split your 8s and try to win both. They put support in those two and it gives them some structural prestige and recruiting distance ahead of their Sun Belt competition, sort of like UCF had over FI/AU.
 

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BigMike said:
Northwestern was an awful program for a very long time.   They have been a good program for the past 20 years. They won the league in 95, we co-champs in 96 and 2000. They ended up the second highest ranked behind Ohio St team in the Big Ten last year.   they have had a better program than Michigan State over the past 20 years
This post was so epically stupid, it needs another look.
 

Ale Xander

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Creighton v. 2.0 (for bball)

Creighton Wichita Butler and Marquette should really form their own conference (with others) but that won't happen
 

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So they don't get screwed in their seeding. The AAC is a better basketball conference than the MVC especially if UConn rebounds.
It sort of makes sense for the AAC since they have 11 teams (Navy is football-only) and could use a 12th so teams could play similar schedules. A potential problem is Wichita has had on-again off-again discussions about starting football, and AAC doesn't need another football team (yet). MVC without Wichita would take a big drop. AAC is 7th in Sagarin ratings this year and MVC is 10th. MVC would drop at least 2-5 places.

Gonzaga's situation is similar in that Mountain West (9th) is rated higher than WCC (11th), and has 11 teams, but Gonzaga doesn't usually have a problem with seeding.
 

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Great move for them. It not only helps with seeding but will make them a better team. There is something to playing better competition (the AAC isn't awesome, but it's noticeably better than the MVC). Another mid-major found that out the hard way this week.
 

Ale Xander

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That's going to be rough on the Olympic sport travel.

Mid-majors are officially dead. Sad day for college basketball
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't know, those were long ass bus rides in the MVC.
Now there will be almost all plane flights for every Olympic sports team. The hoops program will have enough money to charter wherever it wants because Marshall wouldn't be doing this without getting every available resource. But will the other sports have this same luxury? That's lots of commercial flights instead of bus rides which will put a hole into their budgets. I count one AAC team they could bus to and that's Tulsa
 

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The travel is fine, they'll be in a multibid league so there will be more tournament shares to go around and AAC gets a bit more TV money. It sucks that the tournament committee was so wedded to antiquated RPI that a top-15 team by every other metric would have been a bubble team had they not won their conference tournament. They made it readily apparent that MVC is a one-bid league.

This is the easiest move for WSU. Their other options would take time and more parts moving. They could wait to see if Big East wanted to get them to be a travel partner for former rival Creighton, but Big East would have to get another team (Dayton? St. Louis?) to get to 12. Also while WSU's profile fits somewhat in the Big East, great basketball, descent-size city, no football, they'd also be the only public school so probably not likely any time soon and it's not like they'd turn down a Big East invite if it comes in the future.

An out-there idea I had would be to tag-team with Gonzaga to join Mountain West, which is also better than MVC or WCC. MWC has solid programs like SDSU, Utah St, Nevada, but Gonzaga has too many long-time rivalries and gets tourney committee respect after 18 years of top play
 
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