Jurassic World 3: Where the Dinosaurs have Quad Injuries and Hate Their Shoe Deals

SoxFanInPdx

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I see we've forgotten how good Kawhi is (was?).
Not what I said at all. And I think you've maybe forgotten how good Kyrie is. Maybe read my post again. Unless you know his doctor and can say for certain he'll be the same as he was before. If not, how can you say there isn't a real risk here besides an uneducated hunch?
 

PedroKsBambino

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One never knows about media reports, but the Woj report lands in a credible place on what Lakers might offer.

The fall-back presumably is Ingran/Kuzma/a first for Kawhi. That's good enough I don't think Spurs turn it down, right? So to beat that Celts have to get to Jaylen/Sacto pick (plus salary filler and possibly another 1st) wouldn't you think. If you know Kawhi is healthy and wants to be there that's worth it...and if those are both unclear, imo it is not.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Ball, Ingram, Kuza and two 1st rounders is the only deal San Antonio should accept.
Ehh...Spurs aren't in this to hurt Lakers they are in it to maximize their own situation. If you believe Kawhi is gone after this year can you really say you're better off with nothing than Ingram, Kuzma, and a first? I don't think that's realistic for them.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One never knows about media reports, but the Woj report lands in a credible place on what Lakers might offer.

The fall-back presumably is Ingran/Kuzma/a first for Kawhi. That's good enough I don't think Spurs turn it down, right? So to beat that Celts have to get to Jaylen/Sacto pick (plus salary filler and possibly another 1st) wouldn't you think. If you know Kawhi is healthy and wants to be there that's worth it...and if those are both unclear, imo it is not.
I'm sure SA has already turned down Ingram / Kuzma / one first. They are looking for multiple first round picks plus a swap or two, I would guess. What do they have to lose?
 

cheech13

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Ball, Ingram, Kuza and two 1st rounders is the only deal San Antonio should accept.
That's completely unrealistic. I think they'll do Ball or Ingram and then add Kuzma if necessary to get the deal done. Maybe Wagner and a future first. They aren't emptying everything in one deal.

The real question mark here is Randle. If he wants San Antonio and they want him you can get a deal together very easily. Hard to work that out before free agency though.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I'm not saying Jaylen for one year of Kawhi in a GFIN year isn't completely unreasonable but it doesn't come even close to fitting the type of risk that Ainge has ever been willing to take. He had to trade for Ray Allen specifically to entice KG to agree to an extension in Boston, otherwise there was no deal to be had. And that's with Al Jefferson as the centerpiece, who we all loved then but Jaylen is a much better prospect/current contributor to wins (something Al never showed).

Nothing in his entire history as GM tells me that he would be interested in this without
A) being able to have a real extension talk with Kawhi and
B) getting a legit look at his medicals
 
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PedroKsBambino

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I'm sure SA has already turned down Ingram / Kuzma / one first. They are looking for multiple first round picks plus a swap or two, I would guess. What do they have to lose?
Well, one thing is that what is offered now and what is offered when Lakers say "ok, this is really it we're moving on to other things" are different things.

I don't expect Spurs to tank, and thus I'd be surprised if they valued a Laker 1 over Kuzma---that would be a significant mistake in my book. Even just on asset value, it's a mistake. So I guess i see their asks differently than you do. I think it's possible they want a several-year-out unprotected 1, but I think they also realize the Lakers that far out are not at all a sure thing to be a lottery team too.

I agree with others than Randle is a piece SA might find interesting, and is lower-cost from Lakers perspective.
 

BigSoxFan

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A frontcourt of Aldridge/Randle would have no spacing, no rim protection, and would be even worse defensively on switches. Can’t see Spurs being interested in him.

Ingram and Kuzma and a distant 1st is not enough to help your rival set up a mega team and take on Deng’s contract.
 

Manzivino

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Kuzma is the definition of fungible given how bad he is defensively and the Lakers’ own firsts figure to be 24+ posttrade. The Spurs should be holding out for Ball/Ingram/filler at a minimum or tell the Lakers they can call again in February.
 

PedroKsBambino

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A frontcourt of Aldridge/Randle would have no spacing, no rim protection, and would be even worse defensively on switches. Can’t see Spurs being interested in him.

Ingram and Kuzma and a distant 1st is not enough to help your rival set up a mega team and take on Deng’s contract.
Right, but they may or may not be taking on Deng's contract right? I thought (and admit I have not read all the most recent reports) one scenario is they trade for Kawhi using cap space and then sign Lebron, and a different scenario is they sign Lebron/PG13 and then need to include Deng to get Kawhi cap-wise. I certainly agree in that second scenario there's an extra 1 (at least) required to absorb Deng.
 

nighthob

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Well, one thing is that what is offered now and what is offered when Lakers say "ok, this is really it we're moving on to other things" are different things.

I don't expect Spurs to tank, and thus I'd be surprised if they valued a Laker 1 over Kuzma---that would be a significant mistake in my book. Even just on asset value, it's a mistake. So I guess i see their asks differently than you do. I think it's possible they want a several-year-out unprotected 1, but I think they also realize the Lakers that far out are not at all a sure thing to be a lottery team too.

I agree with others than Randle is a piece SA might find interesting, and is lower-cost from Lakers perspective.
The Lakers run the risk of LBJ picking up his option as a way of facilitating a trade if they don't have someone like Leonard on their roster. What happens if LBJ gets dealt to the Rockets to team up with his best friend? Then there's a real risk that he never signs with LA, and you're sort of screwed.
 

lovegtm

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The Lakers run the risk of LBJ picking up his option as a way of facilitating a trade if they don't have someone like Leonard on their roster. What happens if LBJ gets dealt to the Rockets to team up with his best friend? Then there's a real risk that he never signs with LA, and you're sort of screwed.
Not to mention that Ingram/Kuzma/later 1st is probably on the table at any point over the next 8 months if SA decides there's nothing better. Magic needs a star.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Lakers run the risk of LBJ picking up his option as a way of facilitating a trade if they don't have someone like Leonard on their roster. What happens if LBJ gets dealt to the Rockets to team up with his best friend? Then there's a real risk that he never signs with LA, and you're sort of screwed.
Oh, I fully agree that's the leverage as to the Lakers. But my point is that the Spurs choice is about losing Kawhi vs taking best offer on table---because, come Friday if Lebron opts in the Lakers offer to Spurs also may change.

The leverage game here is fascinating---Spurs leverage goes down a bit once/if Lebron opts out tomorrow; but, it goes back up if PG13 signs in OKC and Lebron is still on market. But it goes down more if PG13 signs in LA with Lebron still in market.
 

BigSoxFan

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Right, but they may or may not be taking on Deng's contract right? I thought (and admit I have not read all the most recent reports) one scenario is they trade for Kawhi using cap space and then sign Lebron, and a different scenario is they sign Lebron/PG13 and then need to include Deng to get Kawhi cap-wise. I certainly agree in that second scenario there's an extra 1 (at least) required to absorb Deng.
I don’t see how they match salaries without Deng if only 1 of Ingram/Ball is included. Kuzma makes peanuts.
 

Manzivino

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Oh, I fully agree that's the leverage as to the Lakers. But my point is that the Spurs choice is about losing Kawhi vs taking best offer on table---because, come Friday if Lebron opts in the Lakers offer to Spurs also may change.

The leverage game here is fascinating---Spurs leverage goes down a bit once/if Lebron opts out tomorrow; but, it goes back up if PG13 signs in OKC and Lebron is still on market. But it goes down more if PG13 signs in LA with Lebron still in market.
Im confident the Spurs can wait until February and still get Ingram/first or a stud prospect and a late first from someone else.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Im confident the Spurs can wait until February and still get Ingram/first or a stud prospect and a late first from someone else.
Agreed. But if you are Spurs and believe he's gone, would you want to delay the re-start and also bear the risk Kawhi gets hurt?

I think we all need to realize the Spurs alternatives here are imperfect, too. That doesn't mean they'll trade hiim for peanuts, but does mean there's risks on both sides...not just for the Lakers.
 

bowiac

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Not what I said at all. And I think you've maybe forgotten how good Kyrie is. Maybe read my post again. Unless you know his doctor and can say for certain he'll be the same as he was before. If not, how can you say there isn't a real risk here besides an uneducated hunch?
I wasn't saying there's no risk, but as I read the post, you were saying Kawhi wasn't a difference maker, not just that he had injury risk. Not sure what Kyrie has to do with it regardless. Apologies if I misinterpreted.

When healthy, Kawhi has performed on a level at least as high as Davis (and I would argue higher).
 

nighthob

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It is crazy that if the Lakers had drafted Tatum this discussion would be over already.
Yeah, Danny dodged a bullet when the Lakers signed on to the Big Baller Brand. I like Josh Jackson, but he's clearly not likely to ever hit Tatum's level.
 

Bosox1528

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Yeah, Danny dodged a bullet when the Lakers signed on to the Big Baller Brand. I like Josh Jackson, but he's clearly not likely to ever hit Tatum's level.
I would take Ball over Jackson.

Yeah, Lavar is obnoxious, but you deal with that. He also has pretty much been out of the news lately. I think Lonzo will be a significantly better player than Josh Jackson.

Of course, I'm much happier with Tatum, as he's both a better player than Lonzo, and we don't have to deal with Lavar, but I honestly would expect Lonzo to be the 2nd best player in this draft class
 

DJnVa

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Hearing Jaylen Brown has NOT been discussed in any potential deal for Kawhi Leonard. #Celtics are taking conservative approach in talks with #Spurs.

I'd like to pretend this is Celtics pushing back a little on the Spurs using them as leverage. "Hey now, we want you to put the Lakers over a barrel but let's not alienate our guys if we're just a stalking horse."

But I have to imagine that the best case for Boston is Kawhi (then LBJ) in LA.
 

Manzivino

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Agreed. But if you are Spurs and believe he's gone, would you want to delay the re-start and also bear the risk Kawhi gets hurt?

I think we all need to realize the Spurs alternatives here are imperfect, too. That doesn't mean they'll trade hiim for peanuts, but does mean there's risks on both sides...not just for the Lakers.
I don’t think he plays another game in a Spurs uniform so the risk of him getting hurt is minimal. Personally if the best offer on the table is Ingram/Kuzma/first then yes I’m willing to delay things six months to see if something better pops up in the interim because that’s one valuable piece and someone will give up one piece for Kawhi anytime.

I get that there’s asymmetry, in that most teams have to view Kawhi as a rental whereas the Lakers are assured of extending him, but the trade deadline is a long way away. Maybe the Clippers picks blow up and they believe they can convince Kawhi that LA is LA. Maybe Boston or Philly blink in the face of a legit title shot.
 

lovegtm

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I would take Ball over Jackson.

Yeah, Lavar is obnoxious, but you deal with that. He also has pretty much been out of the news lately. I think Lonzo will be a significantly better player than Josh Jackson.

Of course, I'm much happier with Tatum, as he's both a better player than Lonzo, and we don't have to deal with Lavar, but I honestly would expect Lonzo to be the 2nd best player in this draft class
If you think Lonzo will be better than Donovan Mitchell, please hook me up with your dealer.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, Danny dodged a bullet when the Lakers signed on to the Big Baller Brand. I like Josh Jackson, but he's clearly not likely to ever hit Tatum's level.
Danny probably doesn't trade out of #1 if Magic doesn't telegraph that he's taking Lonzo.

Yet another reason Magic has been an awful GM to this point. His cards are good, but they're always face up.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I would take Ball over Jackson.

Yeah, Lavar is obnoxious, but you deal with that. He also has pretty much been out of the news lately. I think Lonzo will be a significantly better player than Josh Jackson.

Of course, I'm much happier with Tatum, as he's both a better player than Lonzo, and we don't have to deal with Lavar, but I honestly would expect Lonzo to be the 2nd best player in this draft class
Agreed--even as one of the folks around here who is somewhat lower on Ball, he's a very valuable and interesting young asset and I think he's separated himself even more from Jackson than when they were drafted. Tatum, of course, has separated himself from both (today and projecting forward). Good work Danny!
 

Manzivino

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I'd like to pretend this is Celtics pushing back a little on the Spurs using them as leverage. "Hey now, we want you to put the Lakers over a barrel but let's not alienate our guys if we're just a stalking horse."

But I have to imagine that the best case for Boston is Kawhi (then LBJ) in LA.
Yes, but it’s best for Boston to drag things out so it’s a two man Lake Show instead of three.

Also I believe Brown hasn’t been in Kawhi talks, I would bet it’s involved mostly picks and salary filler (since floating Kyrie would be bad business and Rozier/Smart aren’t good fits for San Antonio).
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's completely unrealistic. I think they'll do Ball or Ingram and then add Kuzma if necessary to get the deal done. Maybe Wagner and a future first. They aren't emptying everything in one deal.
If the Spurs are amenable to it why wouldn't you dump all the flotsam to them to take on the Deng deal? Give me LeBron, Kawhi and George......you can fill the rest with role players and ring chasers on mins and you're one of the two best teams in the NBA.
 

RedOctober3829

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deep inside Guido territory

Sources close to LeBron: He didn't text KD and his going to the Lakers would not be sealed (or doomed) by whether or not they trade for Kawhi. ... Man, we'll all be better when this is over, one way or the other
 

BigSoxFan

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Sources close to LeBron: He didn't text KD and his going to the Lakers would not be sealed (or doomed) by whether or not they trade for Kawhi. ... Man, we'll all be better when this is over, one way or the other
So much posturing/lying going on right now. Love it.
 

Marbleheader

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Looks like SA doesn't want whatever the Lakers have to offer. I can understand SA not loving the Lakers assets. It's not unreasonable to not be sold on Ball or Kuzma. If Kawhi is willing to stay beyond next year, I'd be ok with Jaylen going, as much as it would hurt.
 

BigSoxFan

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A source close to #LeBron tells me that #Kawhi Leonard reached out to James, telling him he very much wanted to play together. They spoke about Kawhi's lockdown defensive ability, which would alleviate pressure off of LeBron.
Pop just took another sip of coffee and turned to the next page of the sports section.
 

Bosox1528

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If you think Lonzo will be better than Donovan Mitchell, please hook me up with your dealer.
Whoops, somehow forgot about Mitchell. Think Lonzo will be 3rd though. Lonzo had a really good season for a rookie though. He was a horrible shooter, but an excellent facilitator and defender.
 

nighthob

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I would take Ball over Jackson.
But I'm not sure Danny would given the amount of time he spent trying to get Jackson in for a workout, which was clearly his attempt to hedge his bets in case the Lakers drafted Tatum #2.

If the Spurs are amenable to it why wouldn't you dump all the flotsam to them to take on the Deng deal? Give me LeBron, Kawhi and George......you can fill the rest with role players and ring chasers on mins and you're one of the two best teams in the NBA.
I think you mean three, because the Warriors would pretty clearly be in the same strata as Boston and LA. ;)
 

PedroKsBambino

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Because they didn't accept it?
I must have missed where the overall process ended. Seems to me that we have no idea who is asking for what now, and the fact the discussion is continuing (according to reports) would suggest in fact there is enough mutual interest to explore wouldn't it?
 

Bosox1528

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But I'm not sure Danny would given the amount of time he spent trying to get Jackson in for a workout, which was clearly his attempt to hedge his bets in case the Lakers drafted Tatum #2.



I think you mean three, because the Warriors would pretty clearly be in the same strata as Boston and LA. ;)
Well, it could've been Danny's attempt to hedge his bets if Philly drafted Tatum #1. Ball to LA was thought of as almost a certainty at that point, so it wouldn't make sense for Danny to work him out if he was drafting #3. It's definitely possible that Danny really disliked Fultz and would've taken Jackson over him at #3 as well
 

Marbleheader

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We're all trying to read the tea leaves, none of us know anything, which is pretty much true about most topics.
 

lovegtm

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Whoops, somehow forgot about Mitchell. Think Lonzo will be 3rd though. Lonzo had a really good season for a rookie though. He was a horrible shooter, but an excellent facilitator and defender.
I don't want to fully re-litigate Lonzo here, but you just described a less athletic Marcus Smart, with better facilitating and worse defense. That's not a terrible outcome, but if Lonzo can't shoot, his value is capped. I can't see him getting much better around the rim just because of his athletic constraints.

Bringing this back to the Spurs, I can fully sympathize with not wanting that as the centerpiece of a Kawhi deal.
 

RG33

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I’m sorry, but if Sac/Memphis plus whatever bodies that don’t include Jaylen/Tatum/Big3 gets it done for Kawhi, I hope Danny goes for it. Imagining Kawhi on this team is making silly things happen in my pants.
 

Ed Hillel

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I’m sorry, but if Sac/Memphis plus whatever bodies that don’t include Jaylen/Tatum/Big3 gets it done for Kawhi, I hope Danny goes for it. Imagining Kawhi on this team is making silly things happen in my pants.
Eh, imagine adding two top ten picks, maybe top five, to this team for the next decade.