David Price 2017

Skiponzo

Member
SoSH Member

Ian Browne‏Verified account @IanMBrowne
David Price will start rehab assignment Sunday at Pawtucket, John Farrell has just announced. Five innings, 70 pitches.


Wasn't his last live session just 45 pitches (3 innings simulated, 15 each)? If that is so, seems like the jump to 70 pitches seems a bit aggressive. I'm not the guru here, but I was expecting a 3-4 inning rehab start instead of 5 inning - 70 pitches. I assume the 5/70 is whatever comes first.
Price had a 4 inning 60 pitch session Tuesday. Couldn't find a link to the results with a quick search (I'm at work) but this one shows he will have the sim game.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/red-sox-lay-out-a-timetable-for-david-price-that-could-still-lead-to-a-may-return/
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Price had a 4 inning 60 pitch session Tuesday. Couldn't find a link to the results with a quick search (I'm at work) but this one shows he will have the sim game.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/red-sox-lay-out-a-timetable-for-david-price-that-could-still-lead-to-a-may-return/
Ok, I missed that session in the process. Stepping from controlled 45 - 60, now up to 70 in a live game seems like a conservative progression. I'd rather he be right than to rush him back and he's not ready.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
16,725
Forecast for Sunday in Pawtucket is 100% chance of rain. Hope they don't pitch him then if it's slippery out and they try to get the game in.
 

richgedman'sghost

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 13, 2006
1,870
ct
Could he be shipped to Florida or someplace without a chance of rain? I assume Portland has the same chance of rain that Pawtucket and Boston has.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,483
Could he be shipped to Florida or someplace without a chance of rain? I assume Portland has the same chance of rain that Pawtucket and Boston has.
So he can beat up on A ball kids? I think he'd need to be out a lot longer before he started that low in the system for rehab starts, it really wouldn't work him out enough.
 

richgedman'sghost

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 13, 2006
1,870
ct
So he can beat up on A ball kids? I think he'd need to be out a lot longer before he started that low in the system for rehab starts, it really wouldn't work him out enough.
The important thing for Price is to get him throwing innings not necessarily his stats..As long as he is throwing pitches and innings in a game, the stats or competition level shouldn't matter. He could pitch at Greenville as long as he gets innings.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,483
The important thing for Price is to get him throwing innings not necessarily his stats..As long as he is throwing pitches and innings in a game, the stats or competition level shouldn't matter. He could pitch at Greenville as long as he gets innings.
Oh, I wasn't thinking the stats mattered at all, just that A ball level kids might not offer him the sort of challenge that would stress him at all, or require him to throw more than a bare minimum of pitches, which is not a good way to build him back up to starting.
 

koufax37

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,472
So I'm not clear if in his simulated game situation he has done a full warmup first (30+ pitches), and then does his warmup throws (not counted as pitches) in between innings. A 60 pitch bullpen is completely different from a 60 pitch game, and not clear how much they will have simulated him. Since he hadn't built up in ST before the injury, I'm a little more conservative about the progression, but if he has been doing intense conditioning and non throwing work, I don't see the jump to 5/70 as a big deal load wise.

As for opposition, I don't think it matters at all if he is doing his work in single-A or triple-A, but the adrenaline and umpire of a real game with fans is a big important jump from a simulated setting in terms of intensity. Any word yet on if they will have him make a second rehab start or have a more limited first start? Given the state of the back end of our rotation, I would rather see him back live after the one rehab start even with an 85 pitch ceiling.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,085
It was his first actual game since last season.

He said he felt great. That's all that matters. Hopefully the results are little better next start.
 

Sox Puppet

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2016
724
So this is just armchair psychology, but I wonder how it will affect Price to come back having been supplanted as the staff ace by Chris Sale, who has been everything (and more) that Price was expected to be. Even the whole "nobody does well in his first year pitching in Boston" myth has been shattered by Sale's dominant start to the season. I wonder if it will inspire Price to be even better, or if it will shake his confidence to the point that this just ends up being a wasted year.

It would be quite a statement if the pitcher we got "on Sale" (contract-wise) were better than the one we paid "full Price" for.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,429
So this is just armchair psychology, but I wonder how it will affect Price to come back having been supplanted as the staff ace by Chris Sale, who has been everything (and more) that Price was expected to be. Even the whole "nobody does well in his first year pitching in Boston" myth has been shattered by Sale's dominant start to the season. I wonder if it will inspire Price to be even better, or if it will shake his confidence to the point that this just ends up being a wasted year.

It would be quite a statement if the pitcher we got "on Sale" (contract-wise) were better than the one we paid "full Price" for.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,429
First actual game against KIDS.
It's essentially a spring training game. He probably didn't even give a shit about balls and strikes. He was going through the motions and just working on mechanics. I'm not worried about the results (unless it's injury related, of course).
 

JohntheBaptist

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
11,399
Yoknapatawpha County
First actual game against KIDS.
Mechanics have a lot to do with balls and strikes.
You're one of these guys that freaks out over a few bad games in spring training too, huh?

Is it that you think he's still injured or that he is a two-innings-against-AAA-"kids" level talent now? Just trying to grasp how these results could mean that much with the stated "if he's feeling healthy after" caveat, which he appeared to be.
 

uk_sox_fan

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 11, 2006
1,273
London, England
Price on the hill tomorrow night home vs Louisville. All goes well I would think he makes his season debut next Tuesday (30/5) at CWS (following Sale's homecoming Mon night).

Boston Probable Pitchers:
23-25 May v Tex:
Cashner v Porcello
Perez v Sale
Martinez v Pomeranz

26-28 May v Sea:
Gallardo v Velazquez(?)
Heston v Rodriguez
Bergman v Porcello

29-31 May @ CWS:
Sale v ?*
Price(?) v ?*
Pomeranz v ?*

*CWS have a doubleheader Friday so their rotation is a bit unpredictable at the moment
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,085
His velocity has been fantastic. Sounds like he's missing up and away alot.

Also sounds like the defense was really really bad.

Obviously alot of rust still there
 

jimv

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 5, 2011
1,118
Boston Herald said:
Price finished with 89 pitches -- the goal was to be around 85-90 -- 61 for strikes and lasted just 3 2/3 innings. He allowed six runs, three earned, on seven hits, including three more singles in the second inning where allowed two runs. He struck out four, walked one and had the wild pitch.

Price left the park after his start without talking to reporters.

The most encouraging sign was his velocity, but the Bats had no trouble timing up his fastball, and Price's accuracy was spotty. His changeup and cutter were his best pitches, which he went to more as the game progressed.
Seems like he needs at least one more rehab start.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
John Lackey 2011 says hi.
Yyyyep. Velocity without command would suggest that something may be structurally amiss. And we are getting close to the point where a Tommy John surgery would cost him most of 2018, too.
Look, there coul d be something wrong that requires intervention. But if we could diagnose elbow trouble from a box score, Dr. Andrews would be out of business tomorrow.

I should also point out that Price is not focusing right now on getting hitters out. He's getting stretched out and building arm-strength. If this continues for the next few weeks, then we'll talk.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
Look, there coul d be something wrong that requires intervention. But if we could diagnose elbow trouble from a box score, Dr. Andrews would be out of business tomorrow.

I should also point out that Price is not focusing right now on getting hitters out. He's getting stretched out and building arm-strength. If this continues for the next few weeks, then we'll talk.
So what you're saying is totally logical.

That said, having watched baseball for decades, and seen patterns emerge over time, sometimes it's hard to shake an overall impression from an ongoing landscape.

For me, having seen Price have reduced velocity last year generally, reduced effectiveness last year, the shut down in Spring Training this year, the inability to reach his pitch count in two AAA starts and the inability to get guys out in those two starts adds up to a concerning narrative.

I could not possibly diagnose anything specific from that narrative. But let's just say that I am not going to be surprised if this ends badly.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
8,078
S.E. Pennsylvania
Look, there coul d be something wrong that requires intervention. But if we could diagnose elbow trouble from a box score, Dr. Andrews would be out of business tomorrow.

I should also point out that Price is not focusing right now on getting hitters out. He's getting stretched out and building arm-strength. If this continues for the next few weeks, then we'll talk.
I don't buy the bolded. Maybe he's not "into" the game as much as he would be in the majors, but he is assuredly trying to get people out. He is assuredly attempting to throw strikes and not have the ball crushed. Those things didn't happen well at all in his two rehab starts. I think there is cause for concern here. I'm not saying don't bring him up, but coming off of an elbow injury that required a trip to Andrews and not being able to compete very well at the AAA level because of control IS concerning. I personally will be worried if he takes the hill for the Sox in 5 days.
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,220
Portland
His velocity was 92-94, so it's not like it was "fantastic" as mentioned upthread. That said - it really could be just rust. He hasn't thrown meaningful pitches since October.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
I don't buy the bolded. Maybe he's not "into" the game as much as he would be in the majors, but he is assuredly trying to get people out. He is assuredly attempting to throw strikes and not have the ball crushed. Those things didn't happen well at all in his two rehab starts. I think there is cause for concern here. I'm not saying don't bring him up, but coming off of an elbow injury that required a trip to Andrews and not being able to compete very well at the AAA level because of control IS concerning. I personally will be worried if he takes the hill for the Sox in 5 days.
Here's the thing for me (the bolded). He's been to Andrews already. He got the all-clear in terms of it not being something that had to be repaired surgically. That's the big thing that makes this feel different to 2011 Lackey to me. Lackey didn't see Andrews. He didn't get that reassurance. He took 3 weeks off in May for "elbow strain" then kept pitching like a stubborn mule.

That's not to say that Price is absolutely in the clear, but I think if we're talking a Lackey situation, something more had to have happened since his visit to Dr. Andrews. A setback or a re-injury of some type. There's been no indication of that. I'm inclined to think there's a rust factor and a bit of rushing going on. Even with the bullpens and the simulated games, expecting Price to ramp up to 75+ pitches the first time out in a live game AND to look sharp seems like overkill.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
I don't buy the bolded. Maybe he's not "into" the game as much as he would be in the majors, but he is assuredly trying to get people out. He is assuredly attempting to throw strikes and not have the ball crushed. Those things didn't happen well at all in his two rehab starts. I think there is cause for concern here. I'm not saying don't bring him up, but coming off of an elbow injury that required a trip to Andrews and not being able to compete very well at the AAA level because of control IS concerning. I personally will be worried if he takes the hill for the Sox in 5 days.
It's an oversimplification to say that pitchers aren't focused on getting hitters out, but when you are talking about rehab starts, it's accurate.

There's a reason that MLB pitchers go down for rehab starts and post bad numbers, And that's because they are not being set up for a successful outing. They know almost nothing about the hitters they are facing. They aren't throwing to a catcher they usually work with. And (most importantly) they aren't being judged on their results. So instead of "pitching" to each hitter they face, they are working on their objectives. Get the velocity up. Build arm strength. See if you can get the curve working sharply. See how you feel the day after.

Minor league batters know this. So they sit on whatever they think/know is coming and wail away, because why not? And because the pitcher is less interested (almost uninterested) in setting them up and disguising their pitches, the hitters inevitably do much better than expected.

David Price has proven that he knows how to pitch. That is not the point of a minor league rehab start.
 
Last edited:

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,085
His velocity was 92-94, so it's not like it was "fantastic" as mentioned upthread. That said - it really could be just rust. He hasn't thrown meaningful pitches since October.
Alex Speier has him 93-96 which would be better than basically any point last year and in line with his career which yes, is fantastic. He also threw nothing but fastballs the first inning.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
So what you're saying is totally logical.

That said, having watched baseball for decades, and seen patterns emerge over time, sometimes it's hard to shake an overall impression from an ongoing landscape.

For me, having seen Price have reduced velocity last year generally, reduced effectiveness last year, the shut down in Spring Training this year, the inability to reach his pitch count in two AAA starts and the inability to get guys out in those two starts adds up to a concerning narrative.

I could not possibly diagnose anything specific from that narrative. But let's just say that I am not going to be surprised if this ends badly.
This is completely reasonable.

I was pushing back against the "Lackey in 2011" narrative, which is utterly illogical, if only because of the following: Unlike John Lackey, David Price has seen Dr. Andrews. If Dr. Andrews believed that TJ surgery is inevitable or likely, the Sox would have pushed for it in March so that they could have him for a good part of the 2018 season, which is incredibly important, because the opt-out in Price's contract kicks in.
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,220
Portland
Alex Speier has him 93-96 which would be better than basically any point last year and in line with his career which yes, is fantastic. He also threw nothing but fastballs the first inning.
I'll take 96. Alex Fiorino had him 91-92 in the first and then topping out at 94. According to him he also only threw fastballs in the first which helps support others claims that he was working on stuff as his primary concern and trying to get zeros second.

If he can't get some length in his next start because his command is crappy again, then ya I'll be concerned.
 
Last edited:

Clears Cleaver

Lil' Bill
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
11,370
the fact that theya re even considering having his next start be in Boston speaks volumes about how desperate they are and how poor the other options are
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,085
Reading the game reports I really wonder if he just didn't throw his change, which was his best put away pitch last year.

Seems like has was able to get ahead quickly, but really battled to finish them off.
 

koufax37

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,472
I'm not excited about a command pitcher having velocity without command during a rehab. The opposite would be fine and an acceptable and expected on the rebound from a spring off and playing catchup (very different from an injury after getting to full arm strength with a full spring).

But after being the Price optimist early in the process, I'm alarmed by back to back games without anything resembling Price command I'm alarmed. I'm not alarmed by the results which don't matter (homers would be fine), but I find the lack of command a little distressing.

Having not seen the games and actual pitches the alleged command issues, I'm not ready to solidify this worry, and maybe it is just a stepping stone in an unusual rehab progression, but I think if all was doing well as I had expected a month ago, his last start would have been sharp and it would have been in a Boston uniform. A prolonged and unsuccessful rehab assignment leads me to think that it is not just a progression towards full strength, but that he is working through an ongoing issue and his arm isn't right.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Having not seen the games and actual pitches the alleged command issues, I'm not ready to solidify this worry, and maybe it is just a stepping stone in an unusual rehab progression, but I think if all was doing well as I had expected a month ago, his last start would have been sharp and it would have been in a Boston uniform. A prolonged and unsuccessful rehab assignment leads me to think that it is not just a progression towards full strength, but that he is working through an ongoing issue and his arm isn't right.
What exactly is prolonged about the rehab stint so far? After a few bullpens and simulated games, Price has made two rehab starts. I know the way they were talking about his expected pitch counts, it seemed like he was going to ramp up fast, but this seems normal to me. He's in spring training right now...a period that typically takes a pitcher 5-6 weeks to get to the point where he's ready to throw 90-100+ pitches every fifth day in regular season situations. Where Price is seems to be about week four...maybe two starts from being Opening Day ready.

And of course, as I type this, word is out that Price will be starting for the Red Sox in Chicago on Monday. Guess he's going to do the rest of his building up in games that count.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,510
Rogers Park
I'll be at this game; I was hoping for Sale, but I'll take what I can get.

More substantively, I just saw this chart that SoxScout shared on twitter (he's @redsoxstats over there). It really highlights the blackhole that the fifth starter spot has been. Sale's been phenomenal, Rodriguez very good, Porcello mostly good, Pomeranz mostly okay... and the fifth starter spot has been horrible.

The takeaway: I'm not sure we're giving up all that much opting for a premature Price over, say, a reprise from Brian Johnson or Hector Velazquez.



Edit: sorry, I should have quoted the whole tweet. These are game scores.
 
Last edited:

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,483
I'll be at this game; I was hoping for Sale, but I'll take what I can get.

More substantively, I just saw this chart that SoxScout shared on twitter (he's @redsoxstats over there). It really highlights the blackhole that the fifth starter spot has been. Sale's been phenomenal, Rodriguez very good, Porcello mostly good, Pomeranz mostly okay... and the fifth starter spot has been horrible.

The takeaway: I'm not sure we're giving up all that much opting for a premature Price over, say, a reprise from Brian Johnson or Hector Velazquez.

What are these numbers? Some variation of game scores, from best to worst for each pitcher?