Disowning Uncle Drew: Kyrie Trade Speculation
- Thread starter mikeot
- Start date
UNLESS
1. they use those Knick assets to help land Lebron or
2. they are convinced Kyrie will not re-sign next season or
3. they view the #9 + Ntilinka + unprotected pick + Rozier > KI
The Kyrie thing is so dumb. Of course he's not signing an extension. Celtics remain the most likely signing spot next year, but I guess it doesn't help his trade value in the event he is shopped.
The extension talk is beyond dumb, but the questions about whether he'll be traded are very real.
The speed of Tatum and Brown's improvement was unexpected, and changed a lot of calculations imo.
All of that makes sense. All of it was evident last week at this time. None of it has anything to do with the open cesspool that is 98.5.
Rozier's apparent improvement also changes things. Not because he's better than Kyrie, but because you might be competent enough to play starting PG in a championship team and you can sign him into a value contract that will allow the rest of the core to be kept together for a longer. Plus, as the article says, Irving's injury history is a concern and so is the fact you will be paying him a ton of money when he's 31 and 32, which would also be the time when Tatum and Brown reach their peaks.
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That latter statement is very real. Go back and read some of the opinions expressed over last off-season about the hopes for JT and JB. I’m not sure many (any) thought that either one would have progressed as far he did, let alone both.
There are some secondary concerns here. One, Rozier just isn't that good at creating offense for others, so putting him at the one does create some strains offensively. He also isn't the kind of guy that can you points at will when the games count. Tatum might one day be the closer that Irving is, he ain't yet. So there's value to the next three years of Irving's career.
You don't need to worry about those years, his next deal is going to have an opt out after the second year so that he can sign his 35% max at the earliest possible date. So you let the Knicks have the rest of him while Boston gets the best of him.
He also got hunted out on defense in the Cleveland series.
As explosive as he was in some playoff games, I think he showed he can't be a lead point guard for a good team.
In fairness teams are going to do the same to Irving, but he brings so much to the table offensively that it mitigates the harm. I think you can win with Rozier at the one, for example he’d be an asset in Indiana, or Philly, or even Milwaukee where the primary job of shot creation falls on others. But for Boston Irving’s the better option at the 1.
This is intriguing, to dangle Irving for a high draft pick. I find it hard to believe the Suns would do this deal, but -- if someone offered you a 1-3 pick in this year's loaded draft, would you trade Irving? I'd do it, especially if I thought there was more than a 20-30% chance that he won't stick around after next year. Postpones the Day of Reckoning on the salary cap.
Can't be. He's not going to get any bigger.
If you want to go through Golden State and/or whatever team Lebron is on to win a title, having Rozier being switched on to Lebron and any of the Warriors shooters is too hard to overcome.
What do you think he's worth to a bad team that he's likely to leave in a year?
Yeah if you get that offer you jump on it, but I'll believe it when I see it
Do you think Irving is a better matchup? Rozier got isolated on Lebron and abused, but I'd take him defensively against GS over Irving. The real question is does his offense get more consistent and he become more of a creator on that end.
Teams could also try and play some conventional pick n roll defense instead of switching when there is barely a screen.
I'm not sure I would. Because right now Golden State is pretty much going to abuse anyone. If that's the case, the offense Kyrie brings would seem to me to be more helpful.
I'd do Kyrie+ for Porzingis / filler in an S&T. If the Knicks are convinced that KP isn't re-signing there because he's had it with management, they might well be persuaded. It would free Horford up to play a role he's better at, and getting a competent replacement PG* is an easier task than at any other position. But short of Porzingis, I don't spend more than 30 seconds on the phone with the Knicks, because anything else would be a matter of trading a dollar for two quarters and a few lottery tickets. Kyrie is too damn good, and we're too close to a title run.
* Bring back Rondo!
* Bring back Rondo!
What sign and trade do you mean? Both Kyrie and Porzingis are signed through next year.
The salary filler is also tough to take on. Need to find roughly at least 12 million. So that means 2 years of Courtney Lee at 12 mill, or Ron Baker + Lance Thomas or something.
The salary filler is also tough to take on. Need to find roughly at least 12 million. So that means 2 years of Courtney Lee at 12 mill, or Ron Baker + Lance Thomas or something.
The Suns were prepared to send out #4 and Bledsoe for Irving last summer, but 4 is different than 1 and Irving has one year left on his deal now.
Memphis is looking to deal #4 to get out of Parsons contract, but I wouldn't even consider moving Irving for that package.
Porzingis is on a rookie deal for $5.7 next year. I believe he's now eligible to sign an extension, which we need to assume would be a max. He'd then get Base Year Compensation treatment and have trade-value salary equal to half the max, which is damned close to what Kyrie is making already.
If he's not willing to do that in New York but would be willing to do that in Boston, then it would have to be an S&T (and we'd need to include more future assets to make the value work). NYK might consider that because they might think they'd have a better chance of extending / re-signing Kyrie than they do KP (grass is always greener, familiarity breeds contempt, etc), so it's a matter of getting something rather than being left with nothing.
Man, Porzingis’s injury history scared me enough before the ACL. He’ll be fortunate to see the court before February next year, and big men with long lists of leg injuries don’t typically age well. I hope, for the league’s sake, he’s an exception. Of course, Kyrie hasn’t shown himself to be Mr. Durable either.
Yup. I want absolutely nothing to do with Porzingis. Nice player but he's not a guy I want to commit to long-term. The Knicks are also going to be feverishly looking to add a 2nd star next to Porzingis to help convince him to stay. They don't have much to offer so it won't be easy.
If Porzingis is too risky to acquire, then I don't think there's a deal to be done with New York that would make us better. We'll just have to make do with a 5-time-all-star, All-NBA PG who's one of the best shot-creators in the league, on a defense-first team whose offense can sputter without him. I will cry all the way to the 1-seed.
Kyrie's comments about not re-signing right now were closer to "I can't think about my contract, I have to focus on getting back on the court and being 100%" than they were a statement that he's unlikely to re-sign here. So all this trade speculation just sounds like unnecessary nervousness and anxiety and reading the wrong tone into his remarks, rather than a present problem that the team has.
Kyrie's comments about not re-signing right now were closer to "I can't think about my contract, I have to focus on getting back on the court and being 100%" than they were a statement that he's unlikely to re-sign here. So all this trade speculation just sounds like unnecessary nervousness and anxiety and reading the wrong tone into his remarks, rather than a present problem that the team has.
Rozier doesn't have the vision to complete passes on even the simplest of pick + rolls and pick + pops. It's a huge drain on the offense and not something that's going to get appreciably better. He just doesn't have that skill set. Fine for a bench scoring guard but he's never going to be the half-court maestro they really needed against Cleveland.
I wonder if adding this years first would do it. But I’d just be more curious what DA would actually do with #1. Doncic or a big....
I'm sure Hayward and Horford would be pissed too. Danny probably wouldn't care too much, but these guys want to win now. Doncic / Ayton /whoever might be great, but Kyrie will almost certainly be better over the next couple years
Yup. There aren't many deals involving Kyrie that make us better, which is why there's a 99.999999% chance he'll be in green and white at least for next year.
Horford can chase guys around on the perimeter for stretches, but he wears down quickly when forced to do it full time. He's absolutely the prototypical center for the pace & space era and he's going to remain there in Boston. And removing Irving and starting Brown, Hayward, and Tatum at the 1-3 spots is going to put a strain on shot creation. No, they wouldn't be benching Tatum or Brown for Rondo.
No. Unless KP signs an extension before the deal, at which point he'd be subject to the poison pill rues, which makes a trade all but impossible (the rules are really tough to get around unless you build the monetary value of the trade up enough to make the gap between the payer's ingoing and outgoing salaries fit into the 25% margin, which isn't really doable for Boston). The BYC rules (basically) went away with the last CBA. They really only apply for half a season (meaning that they vanish sometime the January after the contract's signed).
Yep. Boston basically has the next three years of Irving guaranteed and they're going to take them and win some titles. This ain't a rebuilding team anymore.
Actually they weren't, that was the problem. They leaked the story hoping to drive the price down from an already rock-bottom one. But that blew up in their faces when Irving gave the Cavs' front office a list of teams he'd cooperate with and Phoenix wasn't on it.
The # 9 and Kanter and future pick wouldn't even net you someone like Jaylen Brown nevermind come close to netting you Kyrie Irving.
Danny Ainge disagrees
The BRK pick always had a chance at being top 5 though. A decent chance in fact. Plus both Crowder and IT4 had far more value than Enes Kanter
A few days ago on a mostly knicks fan forum, I proposed a 3-way,
it was basically
Celts get LBJ
Knicks get KI
Cavs gets Kanter, Niki, Knicks '18 #1 (9) and a '20 #1, Morris and Yabu and a Celtics #1 (27) ,
it passed the trade machine, delivered +4 wins to the knicks (Celts were +2, Cavs -12) but Knick fans thought they were getting screwed.
I can't imagine a situation where the Cavs get a lottery pick in Niki, a lottery pick this year (#9), a potential lottery pick in 2020 (NYK are still not good even with Kyrie), a solid player with a value contract in Morris, and another first round pick this year. That is a fucking haul
Niki is eh, this year's #9 will be ok, and in '20 with KP and KI the '20 pick will probably be out of the lottery. The rest is salary match to get to LeBron's $35 million. If the Cavs are just given bad contracts, why bother and they should go drectly to tankathon and let LBJ walk.
it was mostly an exercise to see if a potential win/win could be constructed.
it was mostly an exercise to see if a potential win/win could be constructed.
The Celts would be taking on LeBron's salary (now $33M) so they have to give up a similiar amount. (as they are over the cap they are limited as to what they can do) , and they don't have a lot of bad contracts to package, so I threw the knicks into a 3-way trade, after it was revealed that KI had shown a peference to playing in NY.
I imagine there are lots of iterations to play with, but my goal was to get LBJ to Boston, and get KI to NYC..
All those picks are way too much to give up though. CP3 to HOU is probably a decent barometer of how these trades work out. Patrick Beverley, Lou Williams, a protected pick and enough salary to make up the difference.
Moops
didn't you just say:
The # 9 and Kanter and future pick wouldn't even net you someone like Jaylen Brown nevermind come close to netting you Kyrie Irving.
So what in addition to the above compensation, which you deemed insufficient, (and i agree) would be required to get KI to the Knicks and LeBron to the Celts?
didn't you just say:
The # 9 and Kanter and future pick wouldn't even net you someone like Jaylen Brown nevermind come close to netting you Kyrie Irving.
So what in addition to the above compensation, which you deemed insufficient, (and i agree) would be required to get KI to the Knicks and LeBron to the Celts?
Well, adding the third team really complicates this. Because basically it is a Kyrie for Lebron trade with CLE acting as a facilitator. Being that facilitator, to my knowledge, has never resulted in getting 3 first round picks, a rookie who was just a lottery pick, and a decent value contract in Morris.
So I am not sure exactly what needs to be added to who, but it just seems like CLE makes out really well for basically doing nothing.