Fast forward to legitimate title contention...

BigSoxFan

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Butler would be a really nice player for Brad's system but I don't want to gut the team to add him. Gordon Hayward would be the perfect addition to this team.
I'm sure Hayward will be Plan A but wouldn't be surprised if Butler is Plan B. Still way more data points needed before we can start to answer this question. If we beat Washington but get handled by Cleveland, I would strongly consider a Butler trade if it's something like Jaylen/Brooklyn 2018/lesser assets. He's 27 and fits right into what we need.
 

smastroyin

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Well, I'm kind of of the opinion that Fultz is the only guy you absolutely don't trade. Maybe Danny puts Jackson or Tatum on that level but I don't think so. That's not to say those guys won't be better NBA players, just the Fultz has the best upside if he gets there. Anyway, point is, if the Celtics get #1 they aren't going to trade it. But if they end up with #2-4 they might trade it (and will need to), but that won't be enough for Chicago, who will end up demanding Brown as well.

(I don't like Ball on the team with IT4, so in my scenario of keep and build around IT, Ainge wouldn't draft Ball)
 

NoXInNixon

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I think what they really need for next year is a 3 point threat. This season no Celtic was in the top 20 in 3P%. Given how many 3s the Celtics take, having someone who hits 41% or more of them makes the offense much more dangerous.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think what they really need for next year is a 3 point threat. This season no Celtic was in the top 20 in 3P%. Given how many 3s the Celtics take, having someone who hits 41% or more of them makes the offense much more dangerous.
Yet another reason why Hayward would be such a good fit here.
 

RetractableRoof

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Well, I'm kind of of the opinion that Fultz is the only guy you absolutely don't trade. Maybe Danny puts Jackson or Tatum on that level but I don't think so. That's not to say those guys won't be better NBA players, just the Fultz has the best upside if he gets there. Anyway, point is, if the Celtics get #1 they aren't going to trade it. But if they end up with #2-4 they might trade it (and will need to), but that won't be enough for Chicago, who will end up demanding Brown as well.

(I don't like Ball on the team with IT4, so in my scenario of keep and build around IT, Ainge wouldn't draft Ball)
I think the upside on Jackson is high enough (including his KG like intensity) that I don't believe that Ainge moves 2-4 + Brown for Butler anymore. I think he might have at the deadline, but IMO he sees too much in Brown at this point.

Since I'm in this thread - I will also say this. IT4 has flipped everything on its head at this point. As I've said previously I thought Ainge originally picked up IT4 as a stopgap and long term to be a 3rd amigo or perhaps the 6th man off the bench. I think IT4 blew through that last year and this year approaching the playoffs. I think IT4 CEMENTED with this years playoff performance that he is going to get max money from someone... and that probably totally flips a certain amount of Ainges planning on its head. A max deal for IT4 with his defensive weaknesses would limit the Celtics pursuit of any other outside star.

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens. I can't say I'm in the "In Ainge We Trust" camp... but damn he'll earn his money over the next 2-3 years.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Now what? If they keep the pick and draft Fultz, a guard is going to have to be moved. KO had the game of his life and may have priced himself out of the Celtics range. Now that the C's have the number 1 pick, is it more likely they can steal Hayward away from the Jazz? They also have Zizic and Yabu coming on board as well.

Bradley would most likely be the one to go. Barring what happens with Hayward, trade AB for a taller SG/SF combo type if Hayward doesn't sign. If he does, trade AB for a vet big to ease Zizic and Yabu in since KO would be gone. I also wonder what a Jaylen Brown and Avery Bradley package would get because Hayward would make Jaylen redundant. They have so many options right now, and many more if they can get Hayward.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Now what? If they keep the pick and draft Fultz, a guard is going to have to be moved. KO had the game of his life and may have priced himself out of the Celtics range. Now that the C's have the number 1 pick, is it more likely they can steal Hayward away from the Jazz? They also have Zizic and Yabu coming on board as well.

Bradley would most likely be the one to go. Barring what happens with Hayward, trade AB for a taller SG/SF combo type if Hayward doesn't sign. If he does, trade AB for a vet big to ease Zizic and Yabu in since KO would be gone. I also wonder what a Jaylen Brown and Avery Bradley package would get because Hayward would make Jaylen redundant. They have so many options right now, and many more if they can get Hayward.
With the 7 million hit for a number 1 pick, if they want to sign Hayward, they'll probably need to trade Smart or Bradley anyway.

With his age and future contract desire, I suspect this is the last year we see Bradley in a C's uniform.
 

The Gray Eagle

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IMO Millsap should be the Celtics' top free agent target, he fits this team and system perfectly and vastly upgrades the biggest position of need.

Going from Amir to Millsap would be a vastly greater improvement than going from Crowder to Hayward.
 

BigSoxFan

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IMO Millsap should be the Celtics' top free agent target, he fits this team and system perfectly and vastly upgrades the biggest position of need.

Going from Amir to Millsap would be a vastly greater improvement than going from Crowder to Hayward.
Millsap turns 33 next season and Hayward just turned 27. While I agree that the upgrade is the largest at PF, you have to go with the younger guy to start.
 

mauf

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With the 7 million hit for a number 1 pick, if they want to sign Hayward, they'll probably need to trade Smart or Bradley anyway.

With his age and future contract desire, I suspect this is the last year we see Bradley in a C's uniform.
Yup.

I'm actually concerned that Hayward won't be available, and that without that kind of opportunity to force his hand, Danny will go into next season with IT/AB/Smart, raising the possibility that we lose one of them for nothing after next season. This summer is the time to trade a guard, and AB seems like the guy to trade.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Yup.

I'm actually concerned that Hayward won't be available, and that without that kind of opportunity to force his hand, Danny will go into next season with IT/AB/Smart, raising the possibility that we lose one of them for nothing after next season. This summer is the time to trade a guard, and AB seems like the guy to trade.
Unless they want to go small for whole games, or trade down in the draft to grab a forward, I think a Bradley deal is all but certain.
 

smastroyin

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If Millsap were under 30 I'd max him in a heartbeat. But he's not and he'll probably age out of usefulness before LeBron so I'm not sure I'd spend the money for improvement now. Having him on a Max at age 36 is probably going to hurt you more than help you, especially if his legs are getting balky. Agree he is the best fit though, and if we were talking a deal like Durant took with gsw I'd do it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If Millsap were under 30 I'd max him in a heartbeat. But he's not and he'll probably age out of usefulness before LeBron so I'm not sure I'd spend the money for improvement now. Having him on a Max at age 36 is probably going to hurt you more than help you, especially if his legs are getting balky. Agree he is the best fit though, and if we were talking a deal like Durant took with gsw I'd do it.
Will he get the 4 year max from someone?
 

sezwho

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I think AB really outdid himself in the Wizards series and I'm not as sure he goes vs Smart. Now I really like Smart and it's not an accident that he is on the court at the end of games, but having a player is a true threat at both ends of the court is incredibly valuable. In the end, unless salary cap issues force him to get rid of the more expensive player, Trader Danny just takes the best deal so the market will tell us who our backcourt will be.
 

Devizier

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IMO Millsap should be the Celtics' top free agent target, he fits this team and system perfectly and vastly upgrades the biggest position of need.

Going from Amir to Millsap would be a vastly greater improvement than going from Crowder to Hayward.
Millsap showed some signs of age-related decline this year. That said, if Hayward doesn't come to the Celtics (my guess), he's worth consideration. Millsap's player option is for 1/$20M so that's his salary floor. I don't know if he'd take it, but the most I'd like to see the Celtics go at that rate is 3 years.
 

mauf

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Unless they want to go small for whole games, or trade down in the draft to grab a forward, I think a Bradley deal is all but certain.
I don't think that's a next year problem.

Asking a 19-20 year old kid to make a major contribution to a contending team is asking too much. I'm all-in on Fultz, but my expectation for next season is 15-18 minutes per game of modestly better production than we got from Jaylen this season. In other words, if we end up missing out on free agency, this team could take a step back next season without AB. That shouldn't stop us from trading him, but I do worry about Danny blinking when the time comes to pull the trigger; the beauty of a Hayward signing, aside from landing Hayward, would be that it would force Danny's hand on a trade.
 

smastroyin

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Will he get the 4 year max from someone?
I think Atlanta is seriously considering it, or at least matching whatever offers he gets. I really feel like you're going to have to offer the max to lure him away, but I could be wrong.
 
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BaseballJones

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I am on record saying that the Celtics need another superstar to seriously compete for an NBA championship. I think acquiring someone like Butler or George could possibly do that, but the problem with that is that the price to pay would be prohibitive. Especially now that they have the #1 pick.

Furthermore, with LeBron showing no signs of slowing down, and the Warriors being an uber-team, I think it would more likely than not be fools gold to go after Butler or George in the hopes that they would elevate the Celtics higher than either the Cavs or Warriors.

The C's are doing this the right way. That trade with Brooklyn...holy smokes. I think their realistic window for being the best team in the NBA is about 4-5 years away. That team will hopefully have, as the core guys, Fultz, Brown, next year's Brooklyn pick (maybe 7-footer DeAndre Ayton?), Zizic, Yabusele, Smart, and Rozier. Probably a few guys still left over from the current C's as well.

In the meanwhile, the Celtics obviously are very, very good, and could get better (even if not quite on Golden State or Cleveland's level) by adding Hayward through free agency. They'd likely have to trade some current guys (Bradley, Crowder, Olynyk) to make the money work. But bring in Hayward, draft Fultz, bring Zizic and Yabusele to the Celtics (if they're ready to contribute), and next year's team, led by IT and Hayward as the two stars (plus Horford if you consider him to be a star), would be outstanding (IT, Smart, Fultz, Rozier, Brown, Yabusele, Zizic, Hayward, Horford....that would be a very good group I think). But really, it would be a transition to that next team where the young stars would all be peaking just as the LeBron Cavs and the Curry/Durant Warriors start their decline, thus opening the real window, which likely would remain open for many, many years.
 

ALiveH

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Just curious why we're only talking about Hayward, which is pure speculation and he's not even a great roster fit. If we're wishcasting anyway, Durant or Blake are better roster fits, and also worth renouncing a couple contracts for. We already know KD seriously considered the C's last year and with the deep playoff run, the chance to take down aging Lebron and #1 overall he might reconsider. Next tier down Gallinari or Ibaka can upgrade the big forward position on smaller deals. Wade or Millsap could work on short-term deals (though it would be tough to root for Wade).
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Hayward can slash, shoot, pass, serve as an alternate playmaker, defend and rebound a bit. He's a near-perfect fit and can play in small or big lineups as needed, is the right age, and has basically no injury history to speak of, whereas Griffin has a pretty decent chance of being a massive albatross contract moving forward.

I'd rather have Millsap than Griffin, though I don't really want either.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Hayward is pretty much a perfect fit and I want no part of Blake Griffin. Hayward isn't all that much of a pipe dream either if he doesn't make All NBA. Utah wouldn't be able to offer that much more money and the Celtics are in a better position.
 

mauf

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I wonder if the Wolves or NO would trade their 2018 first round pick for AB or Marcus Smart.
Possibly a heavily-protected pick, which if everything breaks well would give you the equivalent of Terry Rozier today in 3-4 years. Which is not for nothing -- sure would be nice to have a cost-controlled player earning rotation minutes just as JB and Fultz are beginning to get expensive, and as IT's next contract is starting to become an albatross.
 

Devizier

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Although "The Path Forward" is a better title, the theme of this thread makes more sense for discussing what the Celtics do next.

I think it seems pretty certain that the Celtics will keep their pick and draft Fultz.

That leaves them with:

G Thomas, Fultz, Rozier, Jackson
G Bradley, Smart
F Crowder, Brown
F Yabusele
C Horford, Zizic

And somewhere up to ~29 million in cap space, depending on Olynyk's rights, bringing over Yabu and Zizic, etc.

It seems that we've reached a forum consensus that the Celtics should sign Hayward, clearing space by moving Bradley, renouncing Olynyk, etc. That seems like a solid plan; Hayward is the best player available, assuming Durant isn't a real possibility. Assuming the Celtics get Hayward, they will field an even smaller team next season. They would likely need to move assets simply to acquire a forward to fill out their roster.

Barring Hayward, I suppose the Celtics will make a run at Griffin, although his accumulated injuries are a massive concern at this point. Millsap is another possibility although a long term contract represents considerable risk at age 32.

Whether Hayward signs in Boston or not, Ainge will have some interesting decisions coming up. So what's the next move in either scenario?

My guess would be an attempt to acquire Derrick Favors (one year remaining on his contract) in the event that Hayward signs. If he Hayward doesn't, I think the Celtics will try for Griffin but I would bet strongly against them being successful there. In that event, I assume they hold serve and go into next season with a pretty similar roster plus Fultz and the stashes.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
If the possible answer is send out positive assets to get Favors, which would kill any shot at a max free agent, I believe they would much more prefer extending Kelly. This front office just doesn't value a player who cannot space the floor and shoot threes.
 

Devizier

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If the possible answer is send out positive assets to get Favors, which would kill any shot at a max free agent, I believe they would much more prefer extending Kelly. This front office just doesn't value a player who cannot space the floor and shoot threes.
It will take some impressive maneuvering for the Celtics to keep Kelly under contract while clearing out space for Hayward, though. And of course, Kelly can't really be a forward. That's the first problem with pursuing Hayward in FA.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
It will take some impressive maneuvering for the Celtics to keep Kelly under contract while clearing out space for Hayward, though. And of course, Kelly can't really be a forward. That's the first problem with pursuing Hayward in FA.
I was referencing extending Kelly if we strike out on Hayward and other max players rather than take a flyer on Favors. This is the year to use the cap space, if not, it will be gone. So its either a big FA or I can see them sticking with Kelly in that spot using that money, plus a Dwayne Deadmon from last off-season signing. (meaning a cheap under the radar big)
 

BigSoxFan

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To me it seems they another guy here. They need to address the rebounding deficit if they are going to take a leap. I wonder how ready Y and Z are to take on that problem.
Yabooty will be boxing out guys to the 3 point line. Problem solved.
 

Devizier

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I was referencing extending Kelly if we strike out on Hayward and other max players rather than take a flyer on Favors. This is the year to use the cap space, if not, it will be gone. So its either a big FA or I can see them sticking with Kelly in that spot using that money, plus a Dwayne Deadmon from last off-season signing. (meaning a cheap under the radar big)
Yeah, if they strike out on Hayward, I think the Celtics will -- for reasons of necessity more than anything else -- hold serve and develop their young guys.
 

finnVT

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The Celtics need an upgrade at 4 and have too many guards. What is a realistic 1 for 1 return for someone like Bradley or Smart?
I'd see if there's any way to get Memphis to move JaMychal Green. He's a pending RFA so about to get a lot more expensive, but rebounds well and can shoot a bit. I don't know what Memphis would want for him, but I'd at least kick the tires.
 

pjheff

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Yeah, if they strike out on Hayward, I think the Celtics will -- for reasons of necessity more than anything else -- hold serve and develop their young guys.
If they strike out on Hayward, they also might be more inclined to hold on to some of the current bigs for depth and potentially ballast for a future trade.
 

nighthob

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I'd see if there's any way to get Memphis to move JaMychal Green. He's a pending RFA so about to get a lot more expensive, but rebounds well and can shoot a bit. I don't know what Memphis would want for him, but I'd at least kick the tires.
I've been beating this drum for a while. He'd be near the top of my target list, especially if they strike out on Hayward.
 

cheech13

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I don't see how it's Hayward or bust. Blake Griffin, Paul Millsap, Serge Ibaka, and Danilo Gallinari all fit a need. Seems like using your cap space is better than doing nothing.
 

nighthob

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Millsap started showing some age related decline this year, and he isn't going to be cheap. Griffin's injury list makes me a little nervous, and it's possibly less extensive than Gallinari's. Green is one of those guys that I think would break out as a 3 & D forward, but I may also rate him more highly than some.
 

Swedgin

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If Hayward is not amenable, I like the fits of Green, Millsap and to a lesser degree Ibaka. The issue is cost. That last year of Millsap's deal is going be really ugly - age 36 making north of 40. I suppose you could always stretch him or move him with an asset if you needed the cap space. For Green it is more opportunity cost. As an RFA you have no guarantee of signing him. Memphis can always match and they have no other young-ish talent. Plus you tie up your space for several days. I am curious to see what market is for Ibaka.
 

Auger34

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I've been beating this drum for a while. He'd be near the top of my target list, especially if they strike out on Hayward.
I think JaMychal Green is going to be this year's winner of the Allen Crabbe/Tyler Johnson Memorial and earn a huge contract from Brooklyn. I think he gets something like 20 mil per year
 

JakeRae

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It will take some impressive maneuvering for the Celtics to keep Kelly under contract while clearing out space for Hayward, though. And of course, Kelly can't really be a forward. That's the first problem with pursuing Hayward in FA.
It really wouldn't, as has been discussed elsewhere at length. The single biggest cap space clearance move they can make is not relinquishing Olynyk but trading Bradley. This also resolves some of the roster crunch at the wing positions since bringing in Hayward and Fultz means adding 2 wings to a roster that is already tight on playing time for all the guys who deserve it (especially assuming continued improvement from Brown and Rozier). Trading Bradley also has the benefit of the value he would bring back, probably a protected first. Bradley, in a vacuum, is definitely a better player than Olynyk, so I get why people are hung up on this point, but the Celtics roster is not a vacuum. He's the guy getting shipped out if Hayward is interested in Boston, not Olynyk. (Rozier and Jackson are likely also guys who would need to get sent out the door.)
 

DannyDarwinism

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It really wouldn't, as has been discussed elsewhere at length. The single biggest cap space clearance move they can make is not relinquishing Olynyk but trading Bradley. This also resolves some of the roster crunch at the wing positions since bringing in Hayward and Fultz means adding 2 wings to a roster that is already tight on playing time for all the guys who deserve it (especially assuming continued improvement from Brown and Rozier). Trading Bradley also has the benefit of the value he would bring back, probably a protected first. Bradley, in a vacuum, is definitely a better player than Olynyk, so I get why people are hung up on this point, but the Celtics roster is not a vacuum. He's the guy getting shipped out if Hayward is interested in Boston, not Olynyk. (Rozier and Jackson are likely also guys who would need to get sent out the door.)
Under this scenario, would the team getting Avery for a pick need to have a TPE?

This off-season is going to be so interesting, with all the decisions Danny will have to make and options at his disposal. For me, the biggest question is what to do with Isaiah. For everything he's done to put this team back on the map, a maxed out IT would be an albatross just when Fultz and Jaylen start to hit their stride. If Hayward is signed, I'd imagine IT might be a bit disgruntled being the 6th highest paid guy and the squad next year if they don't extend him, especially after drafting a PG and paying Hayward. As far as Bradley, I'd hate to see him go, because he seems like great teammate and I like the player he's become, but I also do think he's a good fit with Fultz. Plus, he's still only 26 and I think he'll age well if he stays healthy.
 

JakeRae

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Under this scenario, would the team getting Avery for a pick need to have a TPE?

This off-season is going to be so interesting, with all the decisions Danny will have to make and options at his disposal. For me, the biggest question is what to do with Isaiah. For everything he's done to put this team back on the map, a maxed out IT would be an albatross just when Fultz and Jaylen start to hit their stride. If Hayward is signed, I'd imagine IT might be a bit disgruntled being the 6th highest paid guy and the squad next year if they don't extend him, especially after drafting a PG and paying Hayward. As far as Bradley, I'd hate to see him go, because he seems like great teammate and I like the player he's become, but I also do think he's a good fit with Fultz. Plus, he's still only 26 and I think he'll age well if he stays healthy.
No. It's the off-season. Anyone with cap room can trade for Bradley without sending back dollars. He's a better deal than anything available in FA.
 

Devizier

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Teams with enough projected cap space to accept Bradley straight up:

Brooklyn, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Indiana, LA Lakers, Miami, Minnesota, New York, Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Sacramento.

A lot of these teams have just enough space to take on Bradley's contract below the cap. As you might expect, teams with low salary expenditures are not contenders. There may be a handful of TPEs out there too.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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I could see MInnesota having an interest. A heavily protected 2018 first rounder? Dieng wouldn't be a bad add either and he's making 1/3 of what Crowder is making and is signed one year longer. Minnesota would probably be inclined to keep him though. LaVine will be back in February so there is that too but Bradley plays D and could potentially play alongside the 6'5 LaVine, 6'4 Dunn and 6'4 Rubio.
 

JakeRae

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Teams with enough projected cap space to accept Bradley straight up:

Brooklyn, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Indiana, LA Lakers, Miami, Minnesota, New York, Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Sacramento.

A lot of these teams have just enough space to take on Bradley's contract below the cap. As you might expect, teams with low salary expenditures are not contenders. There may be a handful of TPEs out there too.
This list is wrong. Houston, for example, can easily create sufficient cap room by renouncing it's cap hold for Nene and a few others that really don't matter. I don't know every team's cap picture, so I cannot comment more comprehensively.
 

finnVT

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Dieng wouldn't be a bad add either and he's making 1/3 of what Crowder is making and is signed one year longer. Minnesota would probably be inclined to keep him though.
Dieng's fantastic, I can't imagine they're looking to move him. And I'm not sure where you're seeing that contract info-- they signed him to an extension at ~16mil/year for 4 years last fall I believe.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I guess Dieng has a weird contract that counts for less against the cap but if he gets traded, it will count for way more.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Just curious why we're only talking about Hayward, which is pure speculation and he's not even a great roster fit. If we're wishcasting anyway, Durant or Blake are better roster fits, and also worth renouncing a couple contracts for. We already know KD seriously considered the C's last year and with the deep playoff run, the chance to take down aging Lebron and #1 overall he might reconsider. Next tier down Gallinari or Ibaka can upgrade the big forward position on smaller deals. Wade or Millsap could work on short-term deals (though it would be tough to root for Wade).
Everything I've heard from KD says he's really happy in GS. he's a pretty loyal guy, I'd be surprised if he bucks his team twice. I don't think he's going anywhere.