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Greened Illusion: Lebron to the Celtics

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by TripleOT, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Ingram is a terrible NBA defender and really shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence as Jayson Tatum unless that sentence is some variant of The Lakers hope that one day Brandon Ingram will be the poor man’s Jayson Tatum.
     
  2. JakeRae

    JakeRae Member SoSH Member

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    You're making the mistake of only considering the negative. Ball does a lot of things really well and those things made him an overall positive player as a rookie. Ingram does enough things really poorly that he is a negative player. Both have upside, but Ball has just one skill he needs to develop to be an elite talent. Ingram has to improve at basically everything.
     
  3. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Ball shoots 30% from 3 as a rookie against the speed, quickness, length and athleticism of NBA players and he's written off.

    Doncic shoots 30% from 3 against players with inferior S, Q, L and A.......and he's considered a good shooter with generational talent.
     
  4. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Lonzo shot better from three his rookie year than Ingram did during his.
     
  5. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    I think you're misreading this board, the NBA, and both players.

    In Ingram's second year, he got his VORP to .4. Ball was at 1.7. Ingram benefited from playing with Ball.
     
  6. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    It works both ways, Ingram got a lot better when Ball was injured and LA ran the offense through him, and Ball certainly benefitted from playing with a guy that commanded more attention. I do think that just due to length and athleticism many NBA teams would put a slightly higher premium on Ingram's upside. However I don't think either is good enough to be the centerpiece of anything but a firesale trade.

    Luckily we Celtics fans don't need to have these debates as Boston's prospects are better.
     
  7. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    How do you get to either of those conclusions?
     
  8. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    Advanced stats generally say Ball was either better than or roughly as good as Ingram, despite Ball’s horrendous shooting. I mean, does anyone really think he’s a 45% FT shooter? And I don’t think anyone would argue that Ingram isn’t better than Ball in terms of intangibles, unless you think Ball’s family is a major consideration.

    As for fit, Ingram does seem to have developed the ability to hit open 3s (39% 3% last season, though only on 105 attempts). Ball, of course, couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat. So if you’re the Lakers deciding which young guy to keep as a complementary player, I think Ingram is the right choice — even if I’m wrong about Ball having the far greater trade value of the two.
     
  9. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    It would have to be a sign and trade and New Orleans doesn't really have the draft assets or contracts to get Cleveland to bite. Theoretically you could build a deal around Mirotic and Solomon Hill plus filler and future picks. Problem is those picks won't have much value to Cleveland since they'd be in the 20s and then NO is left without any ammo to upgrade the team going forward.

    Also, Rondo and Boogie are free agents. They'd have to use the mid-level on Rondo. Boogie they could sign with Bird rights but then that team is getting very expensive very fast. All that being said, Rondo/Jrue/Lebron/Davis/Cousins is really, really good.

    Even if Cousins was willing to go to Cleveland I don't even think they could work a sign and trade as Cleveland would be ineligible to do a deal since they are over the apron.
     
    #459 cheech13, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  10. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    The thing about a team trading their own draft picks to get Lebron—he devalues those picks. If only a team had the ability to trade some other crappy team’s picks...
     
  11. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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  12. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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  13. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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    It’s kind of hard to believe that, in today’s world, no one would have snapfaced a picture of him somewhere in that city.
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend for king and country Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He should go visit a high school in China.
     
  15. GoDa

    GoDa lurker

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    As a native of Houston and a guy that has spent some time in Philly... though obviously his lifestyle is different than your average guy... I can’t imagine being Lebron and choosing to play/live in either city.
     
  16. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This is all window dressing before his selfish "the decision" similar move to LA. I don't see any other end to this.

    There is no other place that makes sense.
    1. His titles in Miami get almost no credit. How would a title in Houston, or Philly change his legacy. Plus no family reasons to go to either place.
    2. Kyrie complicates Boston. Plus Boston almost beat him without Kyrie. Either he wins with Kyrie, again and opens the can of worms as to his ability to win sans Kyrie, or Kyrie is traded opening more selfish noise.
    3. In LA he has a chance to start a new show time with celebrities kissing his butt. The fact they were bad this year makes him look like a savior. Any selfishness noise is drowned out by the relentlessly pro-Laker media.
    4. He won a title for Cleveland until Tito or Baker Mayfield bring a title to the Cleve Bron is the only guy since Jim Brown to bring a parade to town. So he can walk away with nothing owed.
     
  17. Bosox1528

    Bosox1528 lurker

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    By who? I see lots of people giving him credit for those titles, as is deserved. Look at the stats in those playoffs. Have you seen how badly D-Wade played? Lebron carried those teams.
     
  18. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Yeah and many people are dying to proclaim him the GOAT at the next title wherever and however he gets there. So I don't think there's a lot of title devaluing with James. Kobe (Shaq) and Durant and maybe even Magic (KAJ) get more of that than LeBron.
     
  19. slamminsammya

    slamminsammya Member SoSH Member

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    Yea that original TV special where he devoted all the money to boys and girls club sure was a selfish act.

    This take is like Joe Buck calling Randy Moss's fake Lambeau moon a "disgusting act".
     
  20. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    I don’t think @reggiecleveland is trashing LeBron. He’s walking through the way a person who is almost obsessively focused on legacy might weigh the options LeBron has. Viewed through that lens, I agree with Reggie that the Lakers offer LeBron the most attractive proposition, unless he relishes the prospect of playing with Ben Simmons — which is possible, but seems like a less logical fit than PG13 and a third star acquired by trading one of the Lakers’ young players.
     
  21. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Where Ball and Ingram are the same age (Ingram is <2 months older), don't you have to take into consideration that Ingram's rookie year was as a 19 year old while Ball's was as a 20 year old? That is a pretty big deal.

    Would it make more sense to compare them as 20 year olds or is the 1st off season just that important? I know a lot of players don't really make the leap until their 3rd or 4th season.
     
  22. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    The extra year of control favors Ball, plus I think all things equal, you’d expect a bigger improvement from a player entering his 2nd season than a player the same age entering his 3rd season.
     
  23. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Yes I’m sure his thoughts were all about the donation of $2.5M to the boys and girls club. He sincerely cared about them so much and had no resources of his own to contribute, so he sat down with Jim Gray for the little kiddies; he even worked on his tagline of ‘taking his talents to south beach’ with an ad agency to make sure they got every penny.

    I don’t like Lebron but I’ll grant him that he made a publicity stunt as a young kid and tried to make it seem unselfish, easy to do when you’re a kid; but sorry, if you think that was anything more than that I find it pretty naive. I give him all the credit in the world for being a seemingly solid human being off court and being an amazing player, but he’s the ARod of the nba when it comes to prepackaged PR shit and drama.
     
  24. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Against this (to some extent, anyway) is that Ingram still has room for physical development, so there's reason to think he might take a big leap. I still like both players. If I could grab one for the Celtics it would be Ball because he is a better fit.
     
  25. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    It sounds like, if Lebron goes to LA, it is going to be the same kind of deal for him as his Cleveland stop. He'll go with a couple of other veteran stars (eg, Kawhi and PG) to an otherwise stripmined roster lacking depth.

    Philly and Boston each give him the opportunity to go to a younger, deeper roster.
     
  26. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    23,166
    I’d say it’s more like the Miami situation — clearing the cap space to sign two max players virtually ensures there won’t be much else to work with, unless you’re fortunate enough to have a cost-controlled young player or two (Chalmers in Miami, one of Ball/Ingram in LA).

    If LeBron wants to play with Ball, I’ll bet the Grizzlies would do Ingram + Deng for Mike Conley.
     
  27. OnWisc

    OnWisc Pegs his jeans SoSH Member

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    I lived in Houston for almost four years and absent one or two exceptions, I really don't miss anything about it. That said, what I, and probably most people, look for in a city is likely a lot different than what LeBron is looking for. He could live in a ridiculous house in River Oaks within ten minutes of where he works, where his kids go to school, an array of top restaurants, and one or two shopping centers used to catering to the ultra wealthy. I doubt he really gives a shit about walkability, a vibrant downtown scene or public transportation.

    That said, outside the fajitas at El Tiempo, my understanding is that LA offers all those same things and then some. So I still think it's there or Philly.
     
  28. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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    Well, everything except living 10 minutes from work...or from anywhere :)
     
  29. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    Could Lebron helicopter it from Bel Air to the Staples Center?
     
  30. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I agree with the Miami comp and I feel Paul is the certainty to join him if it is the Lakers. They're best friends off the court, Paul is the godfather to LeBron's kids, and are both hungry for championships with ties to LA. You then have the flexibility to acquire inexpensive fits around them unlike in Cleveland where Tristan, JR, Korver, etc were locked into expensive long-term deals. I'd like a guy like Shane Larkin to be in that backcourt depth mix as a cheap option who can knock down shots.
     
  31. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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    Helipads in downtown LA are for emergency use only AFAIK. Until recently, it was a requirement of any new skyscraper.
     
  32. RGREELEY33

    RGREELEY33 Potty Mouth Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I think it will either be superteam with Lakers or playing for Brad Stevens and the Celtics deep roster, a la KD wanting to go to Golden State and play an elightened form of basketball. Nothing else makes sense.
     
  33. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I don't think Boston. Maybe a 5% chance, at most.
     
  34. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    PHI with LBJ would be the EC finals favorite and assuming they make it, they would be the best team the KD Warriors will have faced.
     
  35. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Lebron to Lakers is now +110 at 5Dimes, Celtics at +575, Philly +1000.
     
  36. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    LeBron to Lakers is a lock. Only real question is who joins him. There is some talk now that George may consider a 1+1 deal to remain in OKC for another year. If he does, then things get interesting because Magic will be under some real pressure to land that second banana. It’s looking more likely that Paul will remain in Houston at which point Magic will basically turn to Kawhi. And San Antonio could easily slow play that situation.
     
  37. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Kawhi is like +330 to Lakers as well, and that's the best odds of any team. Spurs are a very close second, Celtics third.
     
  38. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    That Ball-Kawhi-Lebron team will be interesting to watch, if not exactly a top flight contender...
     
  39. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Seems to me that both Ball and Ingram will be going to SAS if that deal goes through. Can't imagine SAS taking on Deng without getting both of those guys.
     
  40. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I think that’ll be the game of chicken. The Spurs know that the reported Ingram/Kuzma package isn’t going anywhere. Magic would trade those guys plus Deng for Kawhi in a heartbeat. If he loses his patience and goes elsewhere, then that also works for the Spurs because LAL would be out of the mix and Kawhi might be more amenable to other destinations at that point.
     
  41. koufax32

    koufax32 He'll cry if he wants to... SoSH Member

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    How much does the Ball stance of LA of bust hurt Lonzo’s trade value? Surely that would have to come up in discussions, right? If you’re convinced there’s little or no chance he’s still with you in five years then that has to affect how you value him.
     
  42. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    Lebron was 33 this past season, how much longer can he do it? Kobe was 34 in his last great year. Jordan's last year in Chicago was at age 34.

    He is also already 20th in career minutes played in the NBA/ABA, which does not take into consideration the fact that he's also played was more playoff minutes (certainly on a per-year basis) than everyone ahead of him on the list.
     
  43. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    If he didn't retire, I think Jordan's 35-37 seasons would have been quite good and Kobe's injuries are what ended his run earlier than it probably would have. LeBron is going to have to start limiting his regular season exertion but I'll believe he's declining when I actually see some proof of it. The high-flying stuff will naturally reduce over the coming years but he's such a good passer and such a good athlete that I think he could Brady this into his late 30s/early 40s, if he wanted to..
     
  44. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Lebron defies what seems to be knowledge of players lasting, as has Brady. I expect he has 3 top 5 all time player seasons left.

    Lebron has the following against him having a long career:

    He is heavy, power full leaper. not sure any NBA player has exerted or suffered more vertical force. Not easy on the joints.
    He played a lot, including heavy minutes in the NBA, as a young guy when joints are more susceptible to damage, just like you don't have your high school pitcher throw 130 pitches.
    He has had deep playoff runs almost every year, and player Olympics a few times. Lots of extra miles.

    Lebron has the following in favour of lasting a few years:
    He has shown little sign of losing any pop. He still gets up with the best, so doesn't seem like any creeping joint issues are going to slowly affect him now/
    He has almost supernatural balance. Does he ever get knocked down. It is incredible how flies in a full speed off one foot, gets fouled and sticks the landing. Really incredible how he avoids falling, getting knocked down. He is the anti-Iverson in this respect.
    He's not Kobe and that is good.
    Kobe was driven by an obsessive work ethic, to the point he over did it. Lebron is uber dedicated, but stories of his level headed balance, taking a day off when his knee was sore, etc go back to his teens. He also can spend millions on the best info and advice for his personal training
    Unlike Kobe as Big Sox fan mentioned he is a passer and facilitator not a maniacal scorer. Kobe never could make th late career adjustment to sharing the ball, playmaking that Jordan did. His game will age well.
    People often cite his lack of edge compared to MJ, Bird, but his level head makes it les likely he going to break abone diving into a scrum for loose ball in a regular season game.
     
  45. deanx0

    deanx0 Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    If Lebron doesn’t go to the Lakers this summer, then all his work as the shadow GM of the Cavaliers to free up cap space for LA will have been a complete waste of time
     
  46. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    FWIW, some guy named Christian Hinton who claims he has a source with good information says LBJ has come down to CLE and LAL and would vastly prefer to stay in CLE. The article quote his source as saying:

    "In all honesty, the chances [James] goes to LA is low.” He continued by saying “[James going to LA] is the worst case scenario for LeBron, so many things have to come to fruition for that to even be a possibility, and Dan Gilbert would have to mess up so many things with the draft and beyond to push LeBron out.”
    Source also states that LBJ is recruiting players to come to CLE; that his camp and Gilbert's camp are talking; and that LBJ's end goal is to own a NBA team, preferably CLE.

    Like I said, FWIW.
     
  47. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He looks like Jake Wesley's little brother
     
  48. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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    Lebron can do all the recruiting he wants. How are the Cavs supposed to acquire these players?
     
  49. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    By taking discount he won't take?
     
  50. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    He's still in college. He writes for a fan site. His twitter feed has him RT'ing the article he wrote saying "Very interesting article" and basically tweets like every other 20 year old Cavs fan out there.

    So, big ass grain of salt.
     

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