Gronk: one-game suspension
- Thread starter NortheasternPJ
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I don't think Belichick is going to suspend/sit him if they league doesn't. They're in a race for the one seed and HFA. He's not going to handicap himself if the league decides in Gronk's favor.
I think Gronk will get suspended, anyway. The media attention is huge.
I think Gronk will get suspended, anyway. The media attention is huge.
The play wasn't a normal "hit after the whistle" type play. Gronk targeted the head of a player lying on the ground out of bounds after the whistle blew. The missed holding calls that led up to that are unimportant as far as discipline is concerned. He should get a game. If he does, it would definitely be the Miami game, unless Gronk dragged out an appeal, which I doubt he would.
I cannot see a situation where it would be more than one game; Gronk would be a first time offender, and that matters.
For those worried about retaliation, a game suspension makes that less likely. Also, McDermott seems to have his head on straight, and the Bills players were already talking on focusing on winning games during this playoff run. Still, it's the kind of play that can lead to players taking cheap shots on teammates out of frustration.
The Pats are free to add whatever penalties they want, subject, of course to the CBA. The NFL will not take the Pats actions into account when assessing penalties, however. I think at most you might see Gronk benched for a half in the event that the league does not suspend Gronk. The play was reckless and selfish, and under different circumstances could have given Buffalo an extra 15 yards on the INT return.
I cannot see a situation where it would be more than one game; Gronk would be a first time offender, and that matters.
For those worried about retaliation, a game suspension makes that less likely. Also, McDermott seems to have his head on straight, and the Bills players were already talking on focusing on winning games during this playoff run. Still, it's the kind of play that can lead to players taking cheap shots on teammates out of frustration.
The Pats are free to add whatever penalties they want, subject, of course to the CBA. The NFL will not take the Pats actions into account when assessing penalties, however. I think at most you might see Gronk benched for a half in the event that the league does not suspend Gronk. The play was reckless and selfish, and under different circumstances could have given Buffalo an extra 15 yards on the INT return.
Come on man, I have Patriots-colored glasses too but you cannot really call pass interference "blatantly cheating". That's a stretch. It's a penalty yes, but committing a penalty isn't *really* the same as cheating.
When it happened, I thought it warranted a fine. I even thought that said fine might be reducible on appeal as Gronk could offer that he didn't see Dorsett tap him down.
But I saw a tweet this morning that showed an angle from forth downfield (so aimed back toward the LOS). It shows Gronk take a couple of baby steps to line it up before launching.
I think the intent is very clear in that video.
I do think that its most likely that it is a big fine and no suspension. But I could see a 1-game suspension that gets waived on appeal due to Gronk's lack of history and his upfront apology (which suggests to me continued remorse in an appeal).
But I saw a tweet this morning that showed an angle from forth downfield (so aimed back toward the LOS). It shows Gronk take a couple of baby steps to line it up before launching.
I think the intent is very clear in that video.
I do think that its most likely that it is a big fine and no suspension. But I could see a 1-game suspension that gets waived on appeal due to Gronk's lack of history and his upfront apology (which suggests to me continued remorse in an appeal).
Meh, one heat of the moment incident is not a referendum on Gronk. Dress it up however you like but your original post was over the top with the melodrama.
If Bill sits Gronk, it will not be more than for a drive. What Welker did was premeditated and scripted. And a conscious violation of how things are done in NE. Gronk’s move was idiotic and risked serious injury to White, but the insubordination level of Welker’s Rexy Act was what probably pissed Bill off the most. I can’t imagine that Bill will treat Gronk more harshly than he treated a player who handed the opposition some juicy motivation, against the Pats well established manner of handling themselves.
Not to mention we were up by 20 points with 4:39 to go in the fourth.
People just need to come to terms with what happened. Gronk is human, let his emotions get the best of him, and leveled a dirty hit on a defenseless player that cause the player to enter concussion protocol. It doesn't matter that he has no history of cheap shots, it doesn't matter that there were non-calls earlier in the game. This was inexcusable and he should be suspended.
He's going to get suspended for a game, and he deserves it.
The Bills are going to spend the entirety of the 12/24 game taking cheap shots at him. Between this week's game against the Dolphins' cheap-shot artists and now that Bills game, the Pats will be amazingly lucky not to be dealing with (more) serious injuries to key offensive players by the playoffs.
The Bills are going to spend the entirety of the 12/24 game taking cheap shots at him. Between this week's game against the Dolphins' cheap-shot artists and now that Bills game, the Pats will be amazingly lucky not to be dealing with (more) serious injuries to key offensive players by the playoffs.
You think making stupid feet puns is in any way worse or less of the "Patriot Way" then lining up a prone player and launching yourself at his head and neck? What Gronk did was one of the dumbest and meanest and most disturbing things I've seen someone do in sports. I have no idea why he's getting any kind of a pass here.
I didn’t read that as saying what Welker did was worse. But any punishment for that was going to come from the Patriots — obviously the league was never going to care about it. Is there any precedent for a team punishing their own guy for a late hit?
And Gronk is not getting a pass, everyone is critical of what he did and most people here (as do I) say a suspension from the league is fair.
Haven't been in a position to watch/listen to any of the usual sports media outlets today so I don't know how much howling for blood there is. It's a braindead move which should be criticized, and punished but I'd hope the usual suspects aren't going too over the top in their frothing. There are guys who are pretty consistently scummy in this league that largely skate by outside of the in-game penalties they accumulate for their team.
Without the concussion talk, I'm heavily on team fine. There's no excuse for what he did, really wish someone would tell him to stop bringing up how the refs treat him in the same breath, but he's generally a well-behaved guy on the field and he's making the proper apologies. I'd also like someone in the Pats and/or Gronk family camps to push him to make a charity donation of equal size to the fine and maybe do a PSA or something. The possible concussion makes suspension seem more reasonable, at least in the context of the NFL generally needing to take a harder line on brain safety in every situation.
Without the concussion talk, I'm heavily on team fine. There's no excuse for what he did, really wish someone would tell him to stop bringing up how the refs treat him in the same breath, but he's generally a well-behaved guy on the field and he's making the proper apologies. I'd also like someone in the Pats and/or Gronk family camps to push him to make a charity donation of equal size to the fine and maybe do a PSA or something. The possible concussion makes suspension seem more reasonable, at least in the context of the NFL generally needing to take a harder line on brain safety in every situation.
I feel like there is another Gronk play that happened that I havent' had a chance to see yet. Most disturbing things you've ever see someone do in sports? It was shitty but there are several similar incidents like this every single season in the NFL.
Gronk deserves to be called out, fined, suspended, whatever. I don't think him losing his shit in a fit of frustration overrides the other 98 games he's played in the NFL, but YMMV I guess.
Gronk deserves to be called out, fined, suspended, whatever. I don't think him losing his shit in a fit of frustration overrides the other 98 games he's played in the NFL, but YMMV I guess.
I didn’t say be should get a pass.
I didn’t say that what Gronk did was what Bill is looking for in a Patriot.
My point is that from a HC perspective, Welker’s decision — and that’s the key, decision — to blow off team rules/protocol is a much bigger finger in the eye than something done in the heat of the moment. Punishing Welker was Bill’s way of saying that if you knowingly blow off my rules, I’m going to penalize you, even if it hurts the team. If he punishes a player who reacted and frankly had good reason to be beyond frustrated at the sum total of how he has been treated by the zebras more harshly than a guy who acted in a premeditated fashion, I will be surprised.
This whole point only kicks in if the league doesn’t suspend Gronk. In that unlikely circumstance, I just don’t see Bill going further than a series.
Don’t read that as a whitewash or a judgment. Read it as an assessment of the HC.
The league has to suspend Gronk for this. This was an ugly cheap shot that was beyond the boundaries of a "football play." I wish I could put on my Pats homer glasses to see this differently but I can't do it this time. I wouldn't be shocked to see him get 2 games reduced to 1 on appeal. It was that bad.
Yes, one of the most disturbing things I've seen someone do in sports. Please cite some similar incidents in the NFL from the last couple seasons. This wasn't a scrum or an ongoing play. This is to me up there with Suh's stomps, McSorley's stickwork, etc. The guy held is jersey a bit and maybe pushed him off the ball slightly. That sort of things happens on every play in football. As a Patriots fan I hate seeing how often Gronk is interfered with, but it's completely irrelevant. It was a thuggish move. It was dangerous. It was very much uncalled for and it's definitely not the sort of things that happens often in the NFL or elsewhere.
I think Bill will have a big issue with what Gronk did on two levels.
1. Gronk put himself before the team by taking an entirely unnecessary penalty bore purely out of frustration. Bill routinely says coaches coach, players play and refs ref. You can't control the officiating and live with the good and bad calls.
2. Gronk acted out in a way that was both dirty and caused injury. Bill has too much respect for the game to stand for that type of play.
How many times has Bill apologized to another HC for his players actions? That right there tells you a lot of what Bill thinks about the play.
1. Gronk put himself before the team by taking an entirely unnecessary penalty bore purely out of frustration. Bill routinely says coaches coach, players play and refs ref. You can't control the officiating and live with the good and bad calls.
2. Gronk acted out in a way that was both dirty and caused injury. Bill has too much respect for the game to stand for that type of play.
How many times has Bill apologized to another HC for his players actions? That right there tells you a lot of what Bill thinks about the play.
It's also a distraction. Bill I'm sure is livid. Hopefully the Bills player is ok and it turns into a learning experience and Gronk is adequately punished and then it becomes a win all around with respect to deterring future behavior by other players. You need to punish the high profile guys to make everyone understand that this is simply not going to be tolerated.
My guess is that the league will act decisively and quickly and suspend him for a game and Gronk will not appeal. Bill will not answer questions about it. And hopefully, Gronk will try to make a personal apology before the Bills game.
Interesting point there at the end. I’m not sure we know the answer to that one way or the other. I doubt that he knew that his BS comment would get out. Bill is very aware but that was said quietly and I don’t recall many times when the mikes picked up the Post game exchange between Bill and the other HC.
I think another factor is what Bill thinks about Gronk after this current contract. Really coming down on the player could have unintended consequences.
This. Nowhere near a football play. It was an intent to injure, plain and simple. Really disappointed in the guy, but I think he's disappointed in himself as well.
I don't know where it fits in the pantheon of "worst thing ever," but he should be suspended. I dont see how it can be rationally argued that he shouldn't be. It wasn't just after the play OR against a defenseless player OR out of bounds OR not an immediate reaction to another player's actions, but more of a calculated thing. It was ALL of those.
I had NFL Network (Good Morning Football) on for an hour just now and nothing. Maybe I just missed it, but they usually come back to a big story within an hour. ESPN all over it?
It looks like he originally intends to punch the Bills player with his right hand, winds up, realizes that he'd likely break his hand on the guy's helmet or whatever else went through his head, and decided instead on the shoulder drop.
ESPN and FS1 have covered it a fair amount today. Multiple popular websites have articles up calling for suspension.
SI.com has a smattering of "should be suspended", found one that was "fine", and that is about it.
Peter King who usually is a good barometer by how over the top he goes (as to where the league office is at) was on teh suspension bandwagon, but not going "multi-game" so we've got that going for us.
Though there has been a lot of "defensive players have been complaining about the double standard" "perfect opportunity for league office to show not a double standard", so a suspension is pretty much guaranteed. Independent of whether it is deserved (and a one game is deserved).
Peter King who usually is a good barometer by how over the top he goes (as to where the league office is at) was on teh suspension bandwagon, but not going "multi-game" so we've got that going for us.
Though there has been a lot of "defensive players have been complaining about the double standard" "perfect opportunity for league office to show not a double standard", so a suspension is pretty much guaranteed. Independent of whether it is deserved (and a one game is deserved).
I have no problem with a one game suspension but a multi-game suspension would be ridiculously over the top and punitive given precedent from other cases.
So I kind of suspect that is what's going to happen.
So I kind of suspect that is what's going to happen.
Not easy to pin down. Suspensions this year have come primarily Monday and Tuesday, but some have been announced as late as Friday. Seems like they're all based on the situation.
Edit: the last two (Mike Evans and Talib/Crabtree) were announced Monday.
Again I'm not defending or excusing Gronk, and the fact that he was interfered with on that play or a million other plays when it is not called is irrelevant. But is it worse than a safety or linebacker laying out a defenseless receiver? I'm not sure that it is. There are multiple instances of guys just about decapitating defenseless receivers in any given NFL season. I'd put this in the same category as those hits, dirty, violent and unnecessary. If you put this in a category by itself because it happened after the play, then I guess I can see how you would see it differently.
Yeah, that's where I'm coming from. Look, I'm all for violence in sports by the rules. And I get actual flash of the moment anger that takes the violence outside the rules. Tons of plays on Sunday are probably more dangerous or result in greater harm, but that's with guys flying around 20 mph in the midst of plays. What's so disturbing about this is the premeditation. This wasn't a guy running or sliding or moving out of bounds. This wasn't a split second decision.
The play was over. Gronk intentionally hit the man when he was down and out of bounds with the full force of his body and leading with his head, causing a concussion. Whether that was borne of frustration or intent to hurt is irrelevant. It was an egregious lack of discipline worthy of a one game suspension.
Thanks. I did look for Mike and Mike but they seem to have changed TV time for that show where I am.
They really should do it early in the week so coaches can plan for having a guy or not in the next game.
Different sport, but I do recall a lot of the outrage here (rightfully) when Matt Cooke wasn't suspended. Cooke's hit was nowhere near a "hockey play", just as Gronk's hit was nowhere near a "football play". Whether Gronk's hit was the "worst thing ever" is a meaningless argument. The NFL can't allow players to get away with targeted head shots, especially if they happen after the play. I would actually be disappointed if the NFL did let Gronk off with just a fine.
EDIT: As for timing of a decision, I don't see any reason for this one to go beyond Tuesday. Unless this was an inordinately busy weekend for illegal hits, the league has likely already reviewed the game films, and will likely place a phone to call Gronk on Tuesday morning before making their final decision late Tuesday.
EDIT: As for timing of a decision, I don't see any reason for this one to go beyond Tuesday. Unless this was an inordinately busy weekend for illegal hits, the league has likely already reviewed the game films, and will likely place a phone to call Gronk on Tuesday morning before making their final decision late Tuesday.
I guess it depends on how you view the premeditation aspect of it. I think with the advent of targeting rules in the NFL and NCAA that we've shown that in a lot of cases it is possible to avoid the knockout blow, or the helmet to helmet, or the viscous shot on the defenseless receiver. Sometimes I do think those things are split second, and unavoidable. Sometimes I think they can be premeditated, just that they happen during game play as opposed to after the play.
I agree that Gronk deserves a suspension. I think a game seems right.
But I have trouble with premeditation. I mean yes, the play has stopped. But the play had literally just ended. How many seconds passed from the end of the play to Gronk launching? Was it even three? It wasn’t five.
To me, premeditated is something more than a person making an extreme dumbass decision immediately after a play had ended and immediately after getting fouled at least two times without getting a call, and seeing a pick happen as a result.
I’m with you on blaming Gronk but to elevate this to being akin to something he planned out is to willfully ignore the context and the timing.
I don't disagree that it was a dirty play and Gronk probably deserves a Sunday off, however let's not forget that this didn't warrant a suspension...
You're a lawyer. You know premeditation takes a second. He got up, he walked back to the guy, it looks like he went to throw a punch, changed his mind, then dropped his shoulder and 260 pounds into the back of the guy's head as he lay prone and unaware on the ground of out bounds. That's enough premeditation for me to be put off, and distinguishes it from live action play.
I’m not a criminal lawyer though I do watch Law & Order SVU. And I did take Criminal Law in Law School.
It strikes me that the analog for what Gronk did under the circumstances is akin to some sort of manslaughter rather than murder per se.
Alert: I’m just borrowing those concepts as they relate to what it means for an action to be “premeditated.”
I associate that word with actual planning. Not with having the wrong reaction seconds before committing the crime, particularly when said action occurred in the heat of battle.
I get your point, but I'm uncomfortable with saying that just because the NFL screwed up badly before, they should screw up in the same manner a second time around.
Oh that’s right! What happened to Greenberg? Tangent taken, sorry.
Edit, Greenie’s going off on his own.
Heat of battle? How many offensive plays do you think Gronk has been part of in his life? I get that it happened on the field. I get that he didn't sit around all night making plans and procuring weapons then driving over to the victim's house. But, these are athletes, they've been in the "heat of battle" their entire lives. You get hit playing sports. You take fastballs off your shoulder, you get hit after the bell or in the balls boxing, you get held or pushed playing football. He got up, decided he wanted to punish or hurt someone, lined them up with those baby steps. Looks to me like he wanted to throw a punch, though better of it, then dive bombed the guy's head.
I'd feel differently if this was a scrum or arose out of a pushing match. The guy was lying out of bounds on his back.
In terms of "heat of the battle" it was sort of like the famous Cowens "Now that's a foul" play, but of course way more dangerous. But even though Big Dave was celebrated for his actions, it's never a good idea to take out your violent anger towards the official on an opponent. Unless you were otherwise going to concuss the official.
When is a league decision likely? Today?
When is a league decision likely? Today?
Given lack of history, I don’t think he ends up being suspended, but I think it does warrant one. While the outcome shouldn’t affect severity of punishment, it’s much easier to discern than intent, and the reality is White may have gotten a concussion on that play. In addition to hurting the Bills potentially if he has to miss time, let’s not forget the potential impact to his career and longevity. There’s enough head contact in the game as is, enough risk as is, so cheap shots like what Gronk did should be punished heavily. Also, since bad things always happen in Miami, i wouldn’t mind seeing him get an extra week off...
He should obviously be suspended but calling it premeditated seems like a bit of an overplay.
Gronk rolls through missing the catch, gets up, sees the INT from the guy that had been holding him, maybe sees the INT as still a live ball (because at least when Gronk first looks it is not obvious that White is out of bounds and it is worth noting that Dorsett runs through for the tag) and then he jumps on him.
He jumps on him (and this whole sequence takes under two seconds/just over one second) and while jumping on him pulls back from really using his arms for the hit.
Clearly he had a split second and the second step to pull off and not clobber the guy and for that he should get a game (and in a just world it would be the next Buffalo game) but it was not as bad as Suh stomping on the guy from GB.
Gronk rolls through missing the catch, gets up, sees the INT from the guy that had been holding him, maybe sees the INT as still a live ball (because at least when Gronk first looks it is not obvious that White is out of bounds and it is worth noting that Dorsett runs through for the tag) and then he jumps on him.
He jumps on him (and this whole sequence takes under two seconds/just over one second) and while jumping on him pulls back from really using his arms for the hit.
Clearly he had a split second and the second step to pull off and not clobber the guy and for that he should get a game (and in a just world it would be the next Buffalo game) but it was not as bad as Suh stomping on the guy from GB.
It was in the heat of battle because it happened literally seconds after Gronk ran down field, was held a few times, saw no flag for the obvious violations and then saw the guy committing the fouls pick off the pass. The heat comes from proximity in time and what actually happened on that ludicrous play. And the even wider context was a ball game when Gronk was penalized for multiple phantom violations while seeing his opponent foul him repeatedly with impunity. Make no mistake, the biggest aspect of the “heat of battle” was that he launched only seconds after the play ended. But context matters and the context arguably lead the player to think irrationally.
Looks like we should probably just agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to say that something was not planned out was “premeditated,” and as I said, I don’t think a court or law would look at something without advance planning and deliberations in that way. Two or three seconds (at most) doesn’t cut it.
Well, we can agree to disagree if you'd like, but you're 100% wrong on what legally constitutes premeditation. Two or three seconds does cut it.
As for the heat of battle, if having your jersey tugged and having bad calls made or missed on you opens up this type of reaction - either morally or in terms of what the league tolerates - then everyone's going to be going after everyone else's head. But, I'm happy to leave it here, unless you want some case cites about premeditation.
Gronk totally deserves to be suspended. He should get a game.
The ref made a big mistake in not tossing him right away. Had he done so, there might be less outrage today as people could feel there was already punishment.
The longer-term issue, though, is the egregiously bad reffing vis a vis Gronk. The DB not getting flagged on that play for both holding and DPI was wrong and stupid. The earlier OPI on Gronk was even worse.
Not to excuse Gronk -- he was wrong, period -- but the inexcusably shitty reffing needs to be fixed.
The ref made a big mistake in not tossing him right away. Had he done so, there might be less outrage today as people could feel there was already punishment.
The longer-term issue, though, is the egregiously bad reffing vis a vis Gronk. The DB not getting flagged on that play for both holding and DPI was wrong and stupid. The earlier OPI on Gronk was even worse.
Not to excuse Gronk -- he was wrong, period -- but the inexcusably shitty reffing needs to be fixed.
Like I said, I’m not a criminal lawyer. So maybe you’re right. But I don’t think you are and I read enough cases on the clock such that I will pass here.
My take is that 2-3 seconds COULD be enough for premeditation but that normally that phrase requires real advanced planning and thought. And that what Gronk did in this context and with the rage running through his mind over the mugging and result is a million miles from premeditation. Not even close in my view.
Again, I think that he should be suspended for a game, and my comments should not be read as to excuse his actions.
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