Guerschon

[Eddie Jurak]

So, lost in the noise of all of the injuries was Guerschon's first NBA start.

He didn't play a ton (18 minutes), but he flashed some skills. Numbers were good (4 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, a steal), but don't tell the whole story.

His lone bucket was a fake 3, drive the closeout, Eurostep to avoid the rim protector, and layup.

Maybe the most impressive thing he did was on defense - getting switched onto Beal 2-3 times and able to stay in front of him. Quick feet for the beast he looks like he is.

He got a couple of minutes in OT, but Brad took him out after he was called for a foul that looked to me like a great defensive play and a steal.

 

[kelpapa]

Highlights here:

 

[tbrown_01923]

more like solid ball movement than dime leading to the assists. However from what I saw his defense was better than I expected, and if next year as a no 10-14 player on the bench can be positive on the +/- then we are looking better than i would have expected after seeing him earlier in the year.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

He moves really well for a guy his size. Quick feet, long strides, good lateral movement and general smoothness/coordination translate to the ability to cover a lot of ground, particularly on defense. You can see why Ainge was into him. He was always a project, but if he can be Bradified and knock down his open looks, he's absolutely a rotation player in a year or too.

 

[chilidawg]

And of course he gets no first half minutes tonight.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

He moves really well for a guy his size. Quick feet, long strides, good lateral movement and general smoothness/coordination translate to the ability to cover a lot of ground, particularly on defense. You can see why Ainge was into him. He was always a project, but if he can be Bradified and knock down his open looks, he's absolutely a rotation player in a year or too.

I don't see all that you guys do with this player.....he seems like a guy who plays majority of his professional career overseas. It reminds me of the Nader craze of a year or two ago. For a guy his size he has very quick feet but for a swing forward they look quicker than they are due to his large frame. He plays hard so there's that but overall he's limited due to his size and is very slow rotating defensively. Crediting him for staying in front of Beal, as was done above, is false acclaim as Beal simply sized him up and scored easily since Yabu wasn't able to close out on him. The only reason he saw the floor was due to us having 6 regulars out.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

I don't see all that you guys do with this player.....he seems like a guy who plays majority of his professional career overseas. It reminds me of the Nader craze of a year or two ago. For a guy his size he has very quick feet but for a swing forward they look quicker than they are due to his large frame. He plays hard so there's that but overall he's limited due to his size and is very slow rotating defensively. Crediting him for staying in front of Beal, as was done above, is false acclaim as Beal simply sized him up and scored easily since Yabu wasn't able to close out on him. The only reason he saw the floor was due to us having 6 regulars out.

I'm not particularly bullish on him (the "if he can be Bradified" part of my post was shorthand for "improve significantly in many aspects of his game and be used in a way that maximizes his skills and minimizes his faults") but I do think he moves really well. He could stand to lose about 20 pounds though. I get that there's a trade-off with strength there, which is an asset (emphasis on dat ass) of his, but he's ultimately a perimeter player. He'd still be relatively strong and the gain in quickness could be crucial for him. If he doesn't show improvement next year, Cs could end up declining his team option so he should be motivated over the next year.

 

[tbrown_01923]

If by me saying "better than what I thought given the way he played starting the year" and potentially being someone between 10-14 on the roster next year - then I guess I am bullish. I think he could develop into someone who could provide situational mismatches based on his agility / size / shooting. I'd be happy if I saw more ability closer to the bucket to be able take advantage of switches... I don't see a potential top 7 rotational piece in him yet, and I don't think he is a top 10 rotational player yet either.

 

[nighthob]

If by me saying "better than what I thought given the way he played starting the year" and potentially being someone between 10-14 on the roster next year - then I guess I am bullish. I think he could develop into someone who could provide situational mismatches based on his agility / size / shooting. I'd be happy if I saw more ability closer to the bucket to be able take advantage of switches... I don't see a potential top 7 rotational piece in him yet, and I don't think he is a top 10 rotational player yet either.

HRB just hates certain guys and doesn’t like hearing contrary notes. I think most of us think that his upside is fourth big and bench depth player. At the start of the year he looked so lost that I think most of us had his upside as depth charge. I’m encouraged by his play, but I see more out of Semi than Yabu Dabu Du and I doubt that Guerschon ever passes him in the rotation.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I’m encouraged by his play, but I see more out of Semi than Yabu Dabu Du and I doubt that Guerschon ever passes him in the rotation.

I think that's true if you are talking about defense. Yabu looks to have more of an offensive game, though.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Y'all are being pretty hard on the Dancing Bear. I believe he's only been playing basketball since 2012. He's certainly got the feet and the body to play NBA basketball and after watching the 'Zards game, the game has certainly slowed down for him since the beginning of the year. Plus - according to Brad - his best attribute is his court vision.

He's growing. He's got some versatility to his game on both ends of the floor. He's going to be making millions playing basketball somewhere, why not the Cs?

 

[mauf]

Between the injuries to Smart and (to a lesser extent) Theis, someone who we didn’t expect to be anywhere near a playoff rotation is going to get a bunch of minutes, at least in the first round. Larkin and Nader aren’t really candidates to play those minutes — we’re already going to have Kyrie or Rozier on the floor for every meaningful minute. So that leaves Yabu and Ojeleye. You don’t have to be bullish on Yabu as a prospect to think he’s more useful than Ojeleye right now; unfortunately, that’s a low bar to clear.

I’m disappointed that Yabu has gone back to being mostly stapled to the bench the past two games — I’d like to see him get some reps, because we’re probably going to need to get some minutes out of him in the playoffs.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Between the injuries to Smart and (to a lesser extent) Theis, someone who we didn’t expect to be anywhere near a playoff rotation is going to get a bunch of minutes, at least in the first round. Larkin and Nader aren’t really candidates to play those minutes — we’re already going to have Kyrie or Rozier on the floor for every meaningful minute. So that leaves Yabu and Ojeleye. You don’t have to be bullish on Yabu as a prospect to think he’s more useful than Ojeleye right now; unfortunately, that’s a low bar to clear.

I’m disappointed that Yabu has gone back to being mostly stapled to the bench the past two games — I’d like to see him get some reps, because we’re probably going to need to get some minutes out of him in the playoffs.

I think that both Yabusele and Ojeleye have the potential to be useful rotation players, but it's unfortunate that we need to rely on them for anything this year. It's pretty obvious that Semi is still finding himself on offense. And while Yabusele looked pretty good the other night and seems to have confidence in spades, he got off to such a slow start this year that Brad doesn't seem to think that he's worth the minutes at this point.

 

[Koufax]

While I remain hopeful about Yabu long-term, Larkin is much better teed up to get minutes surrendered by Smart and Greg Monroe will get the Theis minutes. Yabu will get minutes only if he proves that he can bring something that Monroe and Marcus Morris don't or if they can't combine for 48 minutes. Benches tend to get shorter in the playoffs, and I expect Yabu to disappear.

 

[mauf]

While I remain hopeful about Yabu long-term, Larkin is much better teed up to get minutes surrendered by Smart and Greg Monroe will get the Theis minutes. Yabu will get minutes only if he proves that he can bring something that Monroe and Marcus Morris don't or if they can't combine for 48 minutes. Benches tend to get shorter in the playoffs, and I expect Yabu to disappear.

I hope you’re right.

Theis was probably going to be the odd man out in a shortened rotation anyways, so yes, Monroe gets those minutes. I’m concerned about the 30 minutes a night that Smart would have played. Monroe can’t fill that role. I don’t think Larkin can either — you can’t have two defensively challenged little guys on the floor simultaneously. But I hadn’t really considered giving Marcus Morris a lot of burn — that, coupled with an extra rotation or two per game for Tatum, Brown, and Horford is probably a better option than either Yabu or Ojeyele.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Brad says he'll be playing more over the next 10 games due to matchups.

 

[chilidawg]

He had some good minutes last night. Looking forward to seeing him getting some run down the stretch.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

From bum to getting minutes in a playoff game in the process of 2 month.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

He has the size and hopefully feet to do something with Giannis and I suspect he was in there instead of Semi because he's more aggressive offensively.

It's amazing how Brad can get so much out of guys just by focusing on what they do well.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

He was very careful about how he used Guerschon in the game. I suspect we’ll see more of that, with G and other players.

 

[joe dokes]

He has the size and hopefully feet to do something with Giannis and I suspect he was in there instead of Semi because he's more aggressive offensively.

It's amazing how Brad can get so much out of guys just by focusing on what they do well.

I didn't think he'd be able to contribute anything. Like Nader-levels of nothing. I was wrong. (I also thought Nader would be able to at least hit shots like Gibson did in his cameo at the end of the regular season. Wrong again.)

 

[benhogan]

Yabusele was never a bum, he was an end of the bench player in the first year of a rookie deal. Apparently liked by his fellow teammates.

Guershon was also a first-round pick, and writing him off halfway into his initial season was premature and silly. Danny/Brad will give him several seasons to figure it out (like they did with James Young).

I could see Brad using him for 5-10mins these playoffs to get very physical with Giannis or Lebron or Simmons.

 

[slamminsammya]

People forget how bad Avery Bradley looked.

 

[TheRooster]

Funny that he's given the Celtics more than Maker has given the Bucks in this series.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

From bum to getting minutes in a playoff game in the process of 2 month.

Process of elimination. Someone needs to play those minutes with all of our injuries. He's still a bum who is end of bench NBA fodder at best.

 

[amarshal2]

People forget how bad Avery Bradley looked.

And Rozier

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Both Rozier and Bradley had explosive athleticism/quickness for their ball skills to grow into......Guershon does not. Therein lies the massive difference and why I've always had his ceiling as a backup big similar to Olynyk for those same reasons.

 

[benhogan]

Both Rozier and Bradley had explosive athleticism/quickness for their ball skills to grow into......Guershon does not. Therein lies the massive difference and why I've always had his ceiling as a backup big similar to Olynyk for those same reasons.

Its early for Guershon but a ceiling of Olynyk is a fair assessment. A rotational big, with quick feet, that shoots 38% (team avg.) from 3 is probably all we can hope for at this point. He also could very easily eat his way out of the league by next season. Hopefully, he'll undertake a serious conditioning program in the offseason (calling Drew Hanlan). So I get your distrust.

BUT right now he's not the worst option to give the Celtics 5-10 minutes of rugged defense on Giannis or potentially Ben Simmons (6 HARD fouls if he gets out of position). If nothing else it gives Al/MaMo a blow and exhausts/annoys Giannis when he tries to back Yabu down. For lack of a better term, he could be our thug this postseason. Yabu also offers better shot blocking, rebounding, and outside shooting then Semi at the moment.

If you want to get really critical, Semi is a guy that has been given ample opportunity/time on the court, this season, that has underwhelmed.

ALSO don't believe your 'bum' comment towards Guershon applies. He never sulks/complains, is always positive on the sidelines and seems to be well liked by Jaylen/Jason. All signs point to a good teammate that is a positive locker room presence. That's exactly how I want my end of the bench, youngsters still learning, to act.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Both Rozier and Bradley had explosive athleticism/quickness for their ball skills to grow into......Guershon does not. Therein lies the massive difference and why I've always had his ceiling as a backup big similar to Olynyk for those same reasons.

"Backup big similar to Olynyk" would not be a bad outcome, IMO.

 

[joe dokes]

You can't really say this:

Process of elimination. Someone needs to play those minutes with all of our injuries. He's still a bum who is end of bench NBA fodder at best.

and this:

Both Rozier and Bradley had explosive athleticism/quickness for their ball skills to grow into......Guershon does not. Therein lies the massive difference and why I've always had his ceiling as a backup big similar to Olynyk for those same reasons.

(obviously you can say whatever the hell you want. But unless you think that Olynyk is, "end of bench NBA fodder at best" then these two statements can't coexist.)

 

[Saints Rest]

I don’t think that’s accurate, joe. The first sentence could refer to what he IS TODAY, while the second could refer to his best FUTURE outcome (ie ceiling).

 

[joe dokes]

I don’t think that’s accurate, joe. The first sentence could refer to what he IS TODAY, while the second could refer to his best FUTURE outcome (ie ceiling).

Fair enough. If I read too much into "at best" in the first one, thats on me.

 

[joe dokes]

Dp.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Both Rozier and Bradley had explosive athleticism/quickness for their ball skills to grow into......Guershon does not. Therein lies the massive difference and why I've always had his ceiling as a backup big similar to Olynyk for those same reasons.

I dunno. Some of the issue is how incredibly athletic NBA players are in general. While I agree with you that guys like Rozier and Bradley look to have certain explosiveness that Yabu lacks, part of that is because they are smaller guys and jumping as high as they do stands out.

Yabu has incredible athleticism - particularly quickness - for a guy who is 260. He's got really nimble feet (though maybe not as much laterally); he's really strong; he has good hops; they say his vision is his best attribute; and he appears to have good hands. So maybe not elite NBA ATHLETE but certainly better than a lot of guys his size.

For example, I would say he's more athletic than Theis.

I think it's been mentioned before, he's only been seriously playing basketball for 6 years (previously a boxer). What he needs to develop is skills. According to BRef, there are 119 guys in the NBA over 6'8" who played F or C (in their classification) and had over 2 WS, so there's certainly a need for someone like Yabu if he can develop some skills. I mean he's certainly as athletic as guys like Morris or Theis or Patrick Patterson - he just doesn't have the skills yet. Maybe he never will but he's not been playing basketball very long so hopefully he can.

So in a lot of ways, he's the anti-Olynyk: raw, high ceiling, but some bust potential (as opposed to KO who had a solid floor but limited upside).

 

[Cesar Crespo]

ALSO don't believe your 'bum' comment towards Guershon applies. He never sulks/complains, is always positive on the sidelines and seems to be well liked by Jaylen/Jason. All signs point to a good teammate that is a positive locker room presence. That's exactly how I want my end of the bench, youngsters still learning, to act.

Pretty sure when we say bum we aren't talking about his attitude but his play. At least I was.

 

[nighthob]

Pretty sure when we say bum we aren't talking about his attitude but his play. At least I was.

Or maybe HRB is discussing Guerschon's butt when he says "huge bum"?

 

[Big John]

Yabu doesn't have anything like Olynyk's BBIQ offensively, but Yabu is significantly better defensively.
My comp would be Rodney Rogers in his first year at Denver.

 

[lovegtm]

"Backup big similar to Olynyk" would not be a bad outcome, IMO.

Yeah, we've gotten spoiled by the past 5 years of drafting. Tatum and Brown are likely max 2nd contracts, Rozier is likely $15M+, Smart would be $15-20M+ if he could shoot, and Olynyk was $12M in a tight market, and is now playing well on a playoff team.

"Olynyk with the 16th pick" would be a very good outcome for Yabu, although I'm not sold he gets there, since his basketball IQ seems to be lower than that of the aforementioned guys.

 

[RetractableRoof]

I think it's hard to assess BB IQ of someone who hasn't played their whole life. He might have a low BB IQ today, but who knows how much he improves with the right effort and appropriate coaching? For him because he's played so little, wouldn't he have room for a large improvement (presuming he is dedicated to doing so)?

 

[Big John]

I think it's hard to assess BB IQ of someone who hasn't played their whole life. He might have a low BB IQ today, but who knows how much he improves with the right effort and appropriate coaching? For him because he's played so little, wouldn't he have room for a large improvement (presuming he is dedicated to doing so)?

Well sure, but Olynyk came into the league as a coach's son who was a point guard in HS but who suddenly grew up into a 7-footer. Yabusele has some catching up to do in terms of understanding the game.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

You can't really say this:



and this:



(obviously you can say whatever the hell you want. But unless you think that Olynyk is, "end of bench NBA fodder at best" then these two statements can't coexist.)

Yes, Saints Rest is correct. Today, Guershon isn't a rotational NBA player. His ceiling at the time he was drafted to me was a guy like Olynyk. It doesn't appear he will ever touch that level.

I never liked the pick because, like when Kelly was drafted, you passed on players with much higher upside and potential to make an impact due to his physical/athletic limitations. LeVert, Zubac, Dejounte, and Siakam were my guys for the pick with Zizic, who was the one guy I wanted.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I dunno. Some of the issue is how incredibly athletic NBA players are in general. While I agree with you that guys like Rozier and Bradley look to have certain explosiveness that Yabu lacks, part of that is because they are smaller guys and jumping as high as they do stands out.

Yabu has incredible athleticism - particularly quickness - for a guy who is 260. He's got really nimble feet (though maybe not as much laterally); he's really strong; he has good hops; they say his vision is his best attribute; and he appears to have good hands. So maybe not elite NBA ATHLETE but certainly better than a lot of guys his size.

For example, I would say he's more athletic than Theis.

I think it's been mentioned before, he's only been seriously playing basketball for 6 years (previously a boxer). What he needs to develop is skills. According to BRef, there are 119 guys in the NBA over 6'8" who played F or C (in their classification) and had over 2 WS, so there's certainly a need for someone like Yabu if he can develop some skills. I mean he's certainly as athletic as guys like Morris or Theis or Patrick Patterson - he just doesn't have the skills yet. Maybe he never will but he's not been playing basketball very long so hopefully he can.

So in a lot of ways, he's the anti-Olynyk: raw, high ceiling, but some bust potential (as opposed to KO who had a solid floor but limited upside).

High ceiling? I always had him as a "safe" 3 and D guy who was already close to filling a bench role as a guy will little upside. After seeing little improvement from 20 months ago in the summer I'm ready to move on or at the very least not count on anything from him moving forward with anything being a gift. For a guy relatively new to the game you'd expect a leap of some sort in his second year since seeing him in summer league......he's pretty much the same guy with a little more experience.

Are we comparing Yabu with other 260 pounders or to the NBA players he will be competing against? If it is the latter I could not disagree with you more. He doesn't move well laterally, has little lift (where do the "good hops" come from? I see him as a slow leaper) and struggles beating his man off the dribble without forward momentum.

I feel his ball skills are fairly well developed and as mentioned he lacks the athleticism to take great advantage on improvement in that area.. What undeveloped skills are you referring to? He is a good shooter, good passer, and any ballhandling improvement figures to be of minimal impact due to his lack of quick first step. He's a 3 and D from what I see.

 

[Manzivino]

Yes, Saints Rest is correct. Today, Guershon isn't a rotational NBA player. His ceiling at the time he was drafted to me was a guy like Olynyk. It doesn't appear he will ever touch that level.

I never liked the pick because, like when Kelly was drafted, you passed on players with much higher upside and potential to make an impact due to his physical/athletic limitations. LeVert, Zubac, Dejounte, and Siakam were my guys for the pick with Zizic, who was the one guy I wanted.

The analysis of the Yabu pick is complicated by the fact that they needed a guy who would agree to be stashed for a year so they could keep,the cap space clear for Durant/Horford. I don’t think any of the better options would have agreed to that.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

The analysis of the Yabu pick is complicated by the fact that they needed a guy who would agree to be stashed for a year so they could keep,the cap space clear for Durant/Horford. I don’t think any of the better options would have agreed to that.

Yes, this is a great point that I had completely forgotten about. For this reason alone the pick is justifiable......unlike that ponytailed hippie playing for Miami (IMO of course).

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

High ceiling? I always had him as a "safe" 3 and D guy who was already close to filling a bench role as a guy will little upside. After seeing little improvement from 20 months ago in the summer I'm ready to move on or at the very least not count on anything from him moving forward with anything being a gift. For a guy relatively new to the game you'd expect a leap of some sort in his second year since seeing him in summer league......he's pretty much the same guy with a little more experience.

Are we comparing Yabu with other 260 pounders or to the NBA players he will be competing against? If it is the latter I could not disagree with you more. He doesn't move well laterally, has little lift (where do the "good hops" come from? I see him as a slow leaper) and struggles beating his man off the dribble without forward momentum.

I feel his ball skills are fairly well developed and as mentioned he lacks the athleticism to take great advantage on improvement in that area.. What undeveloped skills are you referring to? He is a good shooter, good passer, and any ballhandling improvement figures to be of minimal impact due to his lack of quick first step. He's a 3 and D from what I see.

You know better than the rest of us that Bball is a pretty simple game. It really boils down to two questions: Can you beat the man in front of you or can you stop the man in front of you?

If Yabu is going to be front line NBA player, he's going to have to be able to beat people guarding him. At his size, it's going to mean developing post moves so he can score over smaller guys. It will also mean being able to take bigger guys off the dribble or developing some kind of mid-range game.

I don't know what he's been working on but hopefully it has something to do with post and mid-range game. You're probably right that he'll never be more than a rotation guy sometimes guys who havenlt played basketball very much but have his level of athleticism can put things together.

 

[JakeRae]

Yabu doesn't have anything like Olynyk's BBIQ offensively, but Yabu is significantly better defensively.
My comp would be Rodney Rogers in his first year at Denver.

Reading this post makes me wonder if you've actually watched Olynyk play defense. He's a very good defensive player who rotates extremely well, gets out and contests shots, and positions himself well to shut down passing lanes. He's not a great individual defender, but it's also not an individual game. The above is born out by the fact that his defensive RPM, now across 2 teams, has been consistently positive over his career.

Olynyk was a great pick and is a very good player. He isn't Giannis, who obviously would've been a better pick, but that shouldn't be held against what he actually is, which is a very good NBA player.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Reading this post makes me wonder if you've actually watched Olynyk play defense. He's a very good defensive player who rotates extremely well, gets out and contests shots, and positions himself well to shut down passing lanes. He's not a great individual defender, but it's also not an individual game. The above is born out by the fact that his defensive RPM, now across 2 teams, has been consistently positive over his career.

Olynyk was a great pick and is a very good player. He isn't Giannis, who obviously would've been a better pick, but that shouldn't be held against what he actually is, which is a very good NBA player.

Olynyk has always been polarizing and a guy who didn't pass the eye test.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Reading this post makes me wonder if you've actually watched Olynyk play defense. He's a very good defensive player who rotates extremely well, gets out and contests shots, and positions himself well to shut down passing lanes. He's not a great individual defender, but it's also not an individual game. The above is born out by the fact that his defensive RPM, now across 2 teams, has been consistently positive over his career.

Olynyk was a great pick and is a very good player. He isn't Giannis, who obviously would've been a better pick, but that shouldn't be held against what he actually is, which is a very good NBA player.

Olynyk is deceptively solid defensively (and offensively)......he's a good NBA role player. To call him a "great pick" when many on this board were yelling for Giannis and myself was screaming for Gobert is quite distorted however.

 

[JakeRae]

Olynyk is deceptively solid defensively (and offensively)......he's a good NBA role player. To call him a "great pick" when many on this board were yelling for Giannis and myself was screaming for Gobert is quite distorted however.

I think we are talking past each other a bit. I evaluate this as two distinct issues. First, did the player you drafted end up being a good value for their draft slot? Olynyk easily did. Second, are there other guys that you should have drafted instead? Obviously, yes.

As examples from the same class, Bennett was a terrible pick. Oladipo was a very good pick. It doesn't matter that even with his breakout he's still just the third best player in his class. Shane Larkin was a bad pick. Giannis and Gobert are off the scales good.

To look down the draft at what might've been is too exacting a standard. Every pick in the first five rounds wasn't a bad pick because Brady is the GOAT.

 

[nighthob]

Olynyk is deceptively solid defensively (and offensively)......he's a good NBA role player. To call him a "great pick" when many on this board were yelling for Giannis and myself was screaming for Gobert is quite distorted however.

I was on the Greek Freak Express, personally. Unfortunately I think Boston was focused on accumulating assets to put together a K-Love trade at the time.

Given Durant’s comments about Giannis the last couple of years, even with Irving out injured the GF/Horford/Durant Celtics would be favorites to win the title. (I mean, seriously, could you imagine him with Durant and Horford spacing the floor?)