Is it safe to discuss John Farrell again?

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Captaincoop

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9-15 in June, boat raced yesterday by a last place team, the latest in a series of demoralizing losses.

It's so difficult to quantify the effect a manager has on W/L record, and surely there is blame to go around (imperfect roster, etc.), but there is also an enviable amount of talent on this team. The question is - right now, on June 28, with the team sinking toward third place, but still in striking distance in the division...do you make a move or not?
 

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It's a legit issue and fair to talk about IMO.

Farrell is the pitching guru but the starters are terrible. How much is it his fault that Buchholz and ERod are awful, that Kelly's awful and injured, that Price hasn't been consistent? I dunno. A manager's job is to find ways to overcome adversity. Has he done enough? I have no idea.

Last year the team perked up under Lovullo. I don't know if that was a temporary bump or a reflection on either man.
 

Humphrey

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Couldn't figure out why he let ERod give up 9 runs, then let all his "use when ahead" relievers burn innings in a lost cause.

Turns out the extra 4-5 runs that ERod gave up made a big difference in the outcome.
 

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CC, what I'd like to see (and I don't have the time or wherewithall to do it) is a data-driven assessment of the impact of replacing a manager mid-season. There must be enough cases to provide a suitable sample. Right now there's a lot of anecdotal examples - skewed toward the Red Sox experience. There's also a difference between replacing a mediocre manager and a horrible manager, and obviously who you replace him with. Furthermore, there's the management staff, which isn't a black and white: are they competent? do they like the manager? do they suck but are tied to the manager? are they great but won't be great for someone else...or maybe even quit?...

The only article I've seen that discusses a plausible impact was one that discussed how some players can use getting rid of a manager as a psychological excuse to play better - because in their dementia they think there's a new slate and now they have a chance to blame prior suckitude on management, not themselves.
 

RedOctober3829

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9-15 in June, boat raced yesterday by a last place team, the latest in a series of demoralizing losses.

It's so difficult to quantify the effect a manager has on W/L record, and surely there is blame to go around (imperfect roster, etc.), but there is also an enviable amount of talent on this team. The question is - right now, on June 28, with the team sinking toward third place, but still in striking distance in the division...do you make a move or not?
It's not just about the sample size of this season. He is 287-275 in his 4 years and a staggering 190-210 since 2013. Farrell's background is obviously on the pitching end. The team ERA's since 2013 are '16: 4.39(10th in AL), '15: 4.31(14th in AL), and '14: 4.01(10th in AL). The results on the pitching staff have been indefensible and there is no track record of young pitchers getting better under his watch. The slide is not all his fault because the players are underperforming, but the manager tends to come under fire when teams are underachieving. It is certainly fair to question every part of this team. It is on Dombrowski to go out and get the manager some better pitching but it is absolutely fair to call out Farrell. To me, there is a serious lack of toughness under adversity with the pitching staff and that points towards the pitching coach and the manager.
 

rembrat

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I wonder how many other fanbases pin the failures of a pitching staff, not on the pitching coach, but on the manager. Like are Yankee fans right now calling for Joe Girardi's head because Michael Pineda and Nathan Eovaldi have regressed, Luis Servino didn't become a star and Ivan Nova has lost whatever he had in 2011/2013. That's just one example but I bet if I looked hard enough I could find a similar scenario with an ex pitching coach as a manger. But an ex-catcher, one noted for calling a good game, should be able to get more out of his pitching staff, yeah?

Fuck it. I say fire him right now. I'll have a lot more fun trolling when Torey Lovullo or whatever replacement can't "get more out" of terrible and injured pitchers.
 

JimD

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Sure it's fair to discuss JF's job performance, as long as we also acknowledge the successful ML ascension of budding superstars Mookie Betts and Xander Bogaerts under his tenure.
 

uncannymanny

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9-15 in June, boat raced yesterday by a last place team, the latest in a series of demoralizing losses.

It's so difficult to quantify the effect a manager has on W/L record, and surely there is blame to go around (imperfect roster, etc.), but there is also an enviable amount of talent on this team. The question is - right now, on June 28, with the team sinking toward third place, but still in striking distance in the division...do you make a move or not?
John Farrell's job is to manage the media, the clubhouse and the coaching staff, the former 2 of which I think he's done an excellent job at (my issue with the latter being Willis' rope). How many managers bench their $100 million 3b for a rookie without some sort of issue? Buchholz was demoted to the bullpen after being last year's opening day starter and it was no problem. Hanley was moved to 1b and was ecstatic to do so (of course he was probably happy to get out of the OF). There's been not a peep of clubhouse/media strife; even in this skid the players are saying the right things. The young players have thrived over the last few years, steadily improving to now All Star levels (even though I've heard that hes terrible with young players!).

This is the same team that went .615 to start (~2x sample size), so I don't think there is a manager problem. That team that went .615 however, had much the same pitching issues as the June version. I just don't understand how this is a Farrell problem and not a Willis problem. The latter is the one that does the work with the pitchers every day that is obviously not working. He's the one watching video and missing tipping and mechanical issues -- again.

No one who is beating the Fire Farrell drum can come up with any objective reasoning to do so outside of some pitching changes (yawn), "they're bad now!" (ignoring the fact that the same manager had them at the best record in the AL not too long ago) or "someone else can't be worse!" (ignoring that anyone that's over 8 years old knows that's not true), so forgive the rest of us for not being swayed on needing a manager change.

Also, when did John become a "pitching guru"? I remember his time here as a well above average pitching coach but certainly not what people seem to be retroactively applying to him when they put him down.
 

Captaincoop

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This is the same team that went .615 to start (~2x sample size), so I don't think there is a manager problem. That team that went .615 however, had much the same pitching issues as the June version. I just don't understand how this is a Farrell problem and not a Willis problem. The latter is the one that does the work with the pitchers every day that is obviously not working. He's the one watching video and missing tipping and mechanical issues -- again.
Didn't he also manage the team into last place finishes the previous two years? It's not reasonable to say this is a small sample size thing. The team performed horribly for two entire seasons coming into 2016. And that was with two different pitching coaches but only one manager.
 

MuzzyField

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It's not just about the sample size of this season. He is 287-275 in his 4 years and a staggering 190-210 since 2013. Farrell's background is obviously on the pitching end. The team ERA's since 2013 are '16: 4.39(10th in AL), '15: 4.31(14th in AL), and '14: 4.01(10th in AL). The results on the pitching staff have been indefensible and there is no track record of young pitchers getting better under his watch. The slide is not all his fault because the players are underperforming, but the manager tends to come under fire when teams are underachieving. It is certainly fair to question every part of this team. It is on Dombrowski to go out and get the manager some better pitching but it is absolutely fair to call out Farrell. To me, there is a serious lack of toughness under adversity with the pitching staff and that points towards the pitching coach and the manager.
I think the 287-275 record with the Sox counts Torey's 28-21 record as his fill-in. In games he's actually been in uniform as the manager of the Red Sox he's closer to being under .500. When you consider he was +32 after 2013 his regression is quite worthy of currently having his ass on the hot seat.
 

Al Zarilla

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I wonder how many other fanbases pin the failures of a pitching staff, not on the pitching coach, but on the manager. Like are Yankee fans right now calling for Joe Girardi's head because Michael Pineda and Nathan Eovaldi have regressed, Luis Servino didn't become a star and Ivan Nova has lost whatever he had in 2011/2013. That's just one example but I bet if I looked hard enough I could find a similar scenario with an ex pitching coach as a manger. But an ex-catcher, one noted for calling a good game, should be able to get more out of his pitching staff, yeah?

Fuck it. I say fire him right now. I'll have a lot more fun trolling when Torey Lovullo or whatever replacement can't "get more out" of terrible and injured pitchers.
Are you reacting to this board, and throwing in the towel as one of the few, and certainly best known of the Farrell supporters? Or, if you'd never been to SOSH, would you still be saying F'it, fire him right now?

BTW, your question about other fan bases, if you look a Giants board, if they fall behind 3 - 0 early, some will call for Bochy's head. That's 3X WS winning manager Bochy. Of course, all other message boards are frequented by not so bright people.
 

Toe Nash

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It's easier to deal with a $100m guy not pouting when he's on the DL for the year.

Buchholz certainly made a bit of a stink. First he didn't even want to talk about it. http://nesn.com/2016/06/clay-buchholz-breaks-silence-about-bullpen-demotion-red-sox-future/

You can give him a varying amount of credit for Betts and Bogaerts but you might also think about EdRod and Vazquez.

He's a "pitching guru" because he used to be a pitching coach (and a pitcher). Theoretically that should be his strong point. Maybe he forgot everything he used to know about pitching.

I don't know. On the whole, he's pretty mediocre. He was mediocre in Toronto. If the team needs a kick in the pants, I certainly won't miss him.
 

E5 Yaz

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No one who is beating the Fire Farrell drum can come up with any objective reasoning to do so outside of some pitching changes (yawn), "they're bad now!" (ignoring the fact that the same manager had them at the best record in the AL not too long ago) or "someone else can't be worse!" (ignoring that anyone that's over 8 years old knows that's not true), so forgive the rest of us for not being swayed on needing a manager change.
I believe there are times when you do make changes for the sake of change, and we might be nearing such a time. Outside of the ERod disconsolation moment last night, there hasn't seemed to be any sign of complacency from the players. But that Pedroia voiced frustration on the mound last night, and even Papi was frustrated "Who cares if my heel gets better if we're still getting our asses kicked?" then there comes a point where a shake-up might signal a reboot of approch, if nothing else.

They still lead the Wild Card race, even after this horrid stretch. The indicators are trending in the wrong direction, and the injuries and poor performance have hit them in their most vulnerable areas. Is this all on Farrell? Of course not. Individual player performance is not on the manager, despite what we constantly hear from our fellow posters. But the manager is responsible for the entirety of the situation, if not the individual aspects. Farrell's job is in jeopardy, and it should be. But there are reasons it should be, and it's not the complaints over individual decisions, performances or game outcomes.

The WC race is such a jumble that waiting until the ASG to re-evaluate seems prudent ... unless the current tailspin doesn't course-correct. Make a change then, if need be, and gear up for adding pieces until the trade deadline.
 

RedOctober3829

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I wonder how many other fanbases pin the failures of a pitching staff, not on the pitching coach, but on the manager. Like are Yankee fans right now calling for Joe Girardi's head because Michael Pineda and Nathan Eovaldi have regressed, Luis Servino didn't become a star and Ivan Nova has lost whatever he had in 2011/2013. That's just one example but I bet if I looked hard enough I could find a similar scenario with an ex pitching coach as a manger. But an ex-catcher, one noted for calling a good game, should be able to get more out of his pitching staff, yeah?

Fuck it. I say fire him right now. I'll have a lot more fun trolling when Torey Lovullo or whatever replacement can't "get more out" of terrible and injured pitchers.
Girardi is certainly under a lot of heat around the NYC area for a lot of the same reasons Farrell is(in-game moves) but it also includes the pitching staff. In my post, I did not say that Farrell needs to be fired. That won't fix the underperformance of pitchers who should be doing a lot better or the black hole at catcher and LF. But, it is totally fair to question the direction of the team since 2013 under John Farrell. The wins and losses speak for themselves and there would be justification if they choose to make a change.
 
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joe dokes

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Couldn't figure out why he let ERod give up 9 runs, then let all his "use when ahead" relievers burn innings in a lost cause.
Turns out the extra 4-5 runs that ERod gave up made a big difference in the outcome.

Read what you wrote. Farrell should have expanded the amount of relief pitching he needed last night but not used 3 particular pitchers when the starters have barely made it into the 5th inning in 5 straight games, during which Layne has pitched 4 times, Barnes threw 51 pitches in a game, Hembree pitched Thursday Friday and Sunday, etc etc. If Ross didn;t take 22 pitches to get 4 outs, maybe he pitches another inning.

It is hard to take seriously a position that Farrell should've pulled Rodriguez earlier AND he fucked up by not staying away from certain relievers.

I'm agnostic on whether shitty starting pitching is anyone's fault but the shitty starting pitchers, but when the starters go 2.1,4.2,5.1,.2.2,5.1, the manager isn't doing bullpen management, so much as triage. You can't ask a managaer to cover for 5 or 6 innings of bullpen every game and also not use 3 pitchers.
 

glennhoffmania

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No one who is beating the Fire Farrell drum can come up with any objective reasoning to do so outside of some pitching changes (yawn), "they're bad now!" (ignoring the fact that the same manager had them at the best record in the AL not too long ago) or "someone else can't be worse!" (ignoring that anyone that's over 8 years old knows that's not true), so forgive the rest of us for not being swayed on needing a manager change.
.
Then you simply aren't paying attention. I'll preface this by saying that I'm a Farrell fan, I think he's generally a smart guy, and I think he's done a very good job at managing the off the field stuff.

This team is coming off of two last place finishes and, after a very strong start that was mostly fueled by pretty much every hitter being hot at once, is on its way to another disappointing season. Plenty of people have pointed out his questionable in-game decisions. The bullpen usage at times is head scratching. The use of the bench at times has been confusing. The failure of Owens and Rodriguez to progress has been frustrating.

If you can honestly say that the team's record over the last 2.5 years accurately reflects their talent level, then I can understand why you'd be against firing Farrell. Personally I think they've under-performed significantly. If they haven't, then Ben and DD are really bad personnel guys who put together really shitty but expensive rosters. We can all argue back and forth about how much blame belongs on the players, the FO and the coaches. They all deserve a share.

The most surprising thing about this ongoing debate is that so many people don't seem to think that two last place finishes and a season that's quickly going down the toilet have anything to do with the competence of the manager. I always thought that results mattered- not in a vacuum, because things will happen that are beyond his control. But big picture, this team has for the most part looked like crap for 2.5 years now, but apparently we're not allowed to hold Farrell accountable for that. I wish my superiors used the same criteria to evaluate my job performance.
 

E5 Yaz

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The most surprising thing about this ongoing debate is that so many people don't seem to think that two last place finishes and a season that's quickly going down the toilet have anything to do with the competence of the manager.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that -- even those who are Farrell's biggest supporters
 

glennhoffmania

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I'm agnostic on whether shitty starting pitching is anyone's fault but the shitty starting pitchers, but when the starters go 2.1,4.2,5.1,.2.2,5.1, the manager isn't doing bullpen management, so much as triage. You can't ask a managaer to cover for 5 or 6 innings of bullpen every game and also not use 3 pitchers.
But Farrell's job goes beyond simply making pitching changes when the starters shit the bed. He's also supposed to make them stop shitting the bed so he isn't constantly in a position to get 6 innings out of his pen.
 

rembrat

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Fire him tonight. I'd like to see the guy that can win with the likes of Clay Buchholz, Rick Porcello, Justin Masterson, Wade Miley, Joe Kelly and Henry Owens anchoring a pitching staff. Let's find that guy!
 

glennhoffmania

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I don't think there's anyone who would say that -- even those who are Farrell's biggest supporters
Well just going by what I've seen in some game threads, there are some people who seem to think that the shitty performances are the fault of the players and, to some extent, the FO. When JBJ stupidly attempts a stupid bunt, it's his fault. When Farrell sends LaMarre up with the bases loaded, it was Pedroia's fault for not ending the game sooner. And on and on.
 

simplicio

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Couldn't figure out why he let ERod give up 9 runs, then let all his "use when ahead" relievers burn innings in a lost cause.

Turns out the extra 4-5 runs that ERod gave up made a big difference in the outcome.
The bullpen's pitched 29.1 of 61 innings over the last 7 games. Those weren't "use when ahead" relievers, they were what was available.
 

joe dokes

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But Farrell's job goes beyond simply making pitching changes when the starters shit the bed. He's also supposed to make them stop shitting the bed so he isn't constantly in a position to get 6 innings out of his pen.
Like I said, I'm agnsotic whether that's Farrell's shittiness or pitchers' shittiness. Unless the manager is doing something like forcing him to throw with his wrong-hand or starting him 5 games in a row, I tend to blame the pitcher. But that's mostly because I have no idea where the line is. Other think they do. So be it.

Buck Showalter invented baseball, but the O's have 3 starters with ERAs over 6, and none with an FIP under 4. Mike Scioscia also invented baseball, and his team's ERA is worse than the Sox.
 

joe dokes

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Well just going by what I've seen in some game threads, there are some people who seem to think that the shitty performances are the fault of the players and, to some extent, the FO. When JBJ stupidly attempts a stupid bunt, it's his fault. When Farrell sends LaMarre up with the bases loaded, it was Pedroia's fault for not ending the game sooner. And on and on.
Any statement that tries to make a serious point about any sort of consensus with "Judging by what I see in game threads...." is off to a bad start. :cool:
 

alwyn96

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Well just going by what I've seen in some game threads, there are some people who seem to think that the shitty performances are the fault of the players and, to some extent, the FO. When JBJ stupidly attempts a stupid bunt, it's his fault. When Farrell sends LaMarre up with the bases loaded, it was Pedroia's fault for not ending the game sooner. And on and on.
I would think if Bradley was bunting on his own, then yeah, it's his own fault. The idea that a player's crappy performance isn't their responsibility seems bizarre to me.

I don't think Farrell has any magical pixie dust thats going to make Clay Buchholz a reliable pitcher or Ryan LaMarre a good player. That said, if the Red Sox keep up this slide into the All-Star break, I think a case could start to be made for switching things up.
 
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uncannymanny

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Didn't he also manage the team into last place finishes the previous two years? It's not reasonable to say this is a small sample size thing. The team performed horribly for two entire seasons coming into 2016. And that was with two different pitching coaches but only one manager.
These were all the same roster too? And none of them were called anything with "bridge" in the name or were we expected to compete for the playoffs?
 

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JF isn't getting fired anytime soon. A few games out of First Place. The team is still positioned to win. ALL teams go through slumps. The pitching staff is a shambles with some horrific starts from normally reliable guys i.e. Price, Wright, Porcello. The offense has hit some slumps and granted it's tough to win games when you score 7 runs but the other team scored 8. The bullpen has been ravaged by these short starts. Now is not the time to panic. Give me 30 days and see where we stand. We are a hot streak from First Place. It's a long season with plenty of time to get some guys healthy, add a few pieces and get going again.
 

joe dokes

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Didn't he also manage the team into last place finishes the previous two years? It's not reasonable to say this is a small sample size thing. The team performed horribly for two entire seasons coming into 2016. And that was with two different pitching coaches but only one manager.
I think its entirely fair for the current GM to take his overall body of work into consideration. But that's something that necessarily goes beyond the W-L record. Or else Tito never gets hired here. And Joe Maddon gets fired two seasons into his TB gig.

I dont even know how to evaluate a manager myself. I can't really imagine what DD is looking for/at.
 
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glennhoffmania

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Any statement that tries to make a serious point about any sort of consensus with "Judging by what I see in game threads...." is off to a bad start. :cool:
I was simply responding to E5's comment that there aren't any people who think Farrell deserves no blame. It wasn't meant to be a super analytical point on the merits of Farrell's potential firing. The context matters some.
 

Captaincoop

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Fire him tonight. I'd like to see the guy that can win with the likes of Clay Buchholz, Rick Porcello, Justin Masterson, Wade Miley, Joe Kelly and Henry Owens anchoring a pitching staff. Let's find that guy!
What about that David Price guy they brought in this year? Do you think he could anchor a staff?
 

rembrat

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What about that David Price guy they brought in this year? Do you think he could anchor a staff?
Absolutely but I've become accustomed to over priced free agents tanking it up once they get here. Price actually has a FIP (b-ref) a full run better than his ERA so he hasn't been that bad. He's been unlucky getting little to no run support. Something else we can hang on Farrell I presume.
 

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Absolutely but I've become accustomed to over priced free agents tanking it up once they get here. Price actually has a FIP (b-ref) a full run better than his ERA so he hasn't been that bad. He's been unlucky getting little to no run support. Something else we can hang on Farrell I presume.
Price is 8-4 despite his 4.68 ERA. The Sox have scored 5+ runs in 10 of his 16 starts. He has no-decisions in games he has given up 5 R in 5 IP, 8 R in 3.2 IP, and 6 R in 2.1 IP. But no run support, yeah.
 

rembrat

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Price is 8-4 despite his 4.68 ERA. The Sox have scored 5+ runs in 10 of his 16 starts. He has no-decisions in games he has given up 5 R in 5 IP, 8 R in 3.2 IP, and 6 R in 2.1 IP. But no run support, yeah.
I was kinda referring to his 3 straight loses where he's gone 7IP 2ER, 8IP 2ER, and 8IP 3ER. So, cool? You win? Jesus, this fucking board.
 

glennhoffmania

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David Price ranks 14th among all MLB qualifying pitchers in terms of run support with 5.63 per game. This is what I mean when I say it's almost impossible to have a serious discussion about Farrell.
 

tims4wins

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C'mon, you said he has been unlucky getting little to no run support, which is not supported by the facts, and you threw in a trolling line that we can hang that on Farrell. If you're gonna be sarcastic like that at least get the facts straight.
 

uncannymanny

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It's easier to deal with a $100m guy not pouting when he's on the DL for the year.
He sat in the clubhouse at the start of the season and clapped and high fives (even the guy who took his job). Took all the responsibility on himself. Thats not what usually happens.

Buchholz certainly made a bit of a stink. First he didn't even want to talk about it. http://nesn.com/2016/06/clay-buchholz-breaks-silence-about-bullpen-demotion-red-sox-future/
Obviously it’s not the type of news you want to hear for yourself. I took it as a demotion and I needed a couple of days to take a breather from just talking about it, sort of get it out of my head and try to figure out a routine that will work for me. it is what it is.

“I’m here to pitch. Regardless of if it’s starting or relieving, I still have to do what I can do to help the team out in any way I can.”
That's "a bit of a stink"? Sounds like exactly what I'd want my player to say.

You can give him a varying amount of credit for Betts and Bogaerts but you might also think about EdRod and Vazquez.
ERod is hurt. Vazquez...was he supposed to be something more than a no hit defensive catcher?

He's a "pitching guru" because he used to be a pitching coach (and a pitcher). Theoretically that should be his strong point. Maybe he forgot everything he used to know about pitching.
Maybe he's the manager and not the pitching coach now.

I believe there are times when you do make changes for the sake of change, and we might be nearing such a time. Outside of the ERod disconsolation moment last night, there hasn't seemed to be any sign of complacency from the players. But that Pedroia voiced frustration on the mound last night, and even Papi was frustrated "Who cares if my heel gets better if we're still getting our asses kicked?" then there comes a point where a shake-up might signal a reboot of approch, if nothing else.

They still lead the Wild Card race, even after this horrid stretch. The indicators are trending in the wrong direction, and the injuries and poor performance have hit them in their most vulnerable areas. Is this all on Farrell? Of course not. Individual player performance is not on the manager, despite what we constantly hear from our fellow posters. But the manager is responsible for the entirety of the situation, if not the individual aspects. Farrell's job is in jeopardy, and it should be. But there are reasons it should be, and it's not the complaints over individual decisions, performances or game outcomes.

The WC race is such a jumble that waiting until the ASG to re-evaluate seems prudent ... unless the current tailspin doesn't course-correct. Make a change then, if need be, and gear up for adding pieces until the trade deadline.
Good post. My biggest gripe with making a change for change's sake is tossing aside a manager that has won a WSC in 3+ years here and had this team playing excellent baseball for the first 2/3 of the games. They were baserunning well, playing defense well, hitting well...pitching like shit. Hmmmmm.

Then you simply aren't paying attention. I'll preface this by saying that I'm a Farrell fan, I think he's generally a smart guy, and I think he's done a very good job at managing the off the field stuff.

This team is coming off of two last place finishes and, after a very strong start that was mostly fueled by pretty much every hitter being hot at once, is on its way to another disappointing season. Plenty of people have pointed out his questionable in-game decisions. The bullpen usage at times is head scratching. The use of the bench at times has been confusing. The failure of Owens and Rodriguez to progress has been frustrating.
Disappointing season? They lead the WC after playing a shittastic month. Theo Epstein's MO was to shoot for that "disappointment" yearly. Rodriguez is hurt. Owens can't throw strikes (and has barely been in Boston for that matter). How are those the manager's fault exactly?

If you can honestly say that the team's record over the last 2.5 years accurately reflects their talent level, then I can understand why you'd be against firing Farrell. Personally I think they've under-performed significantly. If they haven't, then Ben and DD are really bad personnel guys who put together really shitty but expensive rosters
It isn't? What were you expecting from team that were a) decimated by injuries and b) led by a "he's the ace" staff? It's funny that you left out his first season here as manager. Wonder why?

FTR I never said I was against firing Farrell. I'm for firing anyone if it makes the team better. The most compelling argument I've heard for doing so is to "shake things up" or "light a fire". You can't fire a manager every time the team slumps.

We can all argue back and forth about how much blame belongs on the players, the FO and the coaches. They all deserve a share.
Sure they all do, but mostly the players.

The most surprising thing about this ongoing debate is that so many people don't seem to think that two last place finishes and a season that's quickly going down the toilet have anything to do with the competence of the manager.
As always you trot this strawman out. No one has ever said this, ever.

I always thought that results mattered- not in a vacuum, because things will happen that are beyond his control. But big picture, this team has for the most part looked like crap for 2.5 years now, but apparently we're not allowed to hold Farrell accountable for that. I wish my superiors used the same criteria to evaluate my job performance.
2.5 years, huh? Interesting cutoff.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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rembrat

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May 26, 2006
36,345
C'mon, you said he has been unlucky getting little to no run support, which is not supported by the facts, and you threw in a trolling line that we can hang that on Farrell. If you're gonna be sarcastic like that at least get the facts straight.
You're right. I'm sorry, I meant to say "He's been unlucky getting little to no run support as of late."

Am I right now? Can we go back to talking about John Farrell? Did this little discourse really need to happen?
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
30,235
Price is 8-4 despite his 4.68 ERA. The Sox have scored 5+ runs in 10 of his 16 starts. He has no-decisions in games he has given up 5 R in 5 IP, 8 R in 3.2 IP, and 6 R in 2.1 IP. But no run support, yeah.

Those three losses he didn't get because he was bailed out are sort of offset by the three losses where he went 8/2,8/2 and 7/3 (or close to that).

I dont think he's pitched as consistently well as I'd hoped, but if he got 80 runs and only gave up 2, then "run support" is sort of irrelevant (for that game), IMO. He has at least a couple of wins where yes, they scored big, but he also pitched 6 or 7 and only gave up 2 or so in at least 2 of them.

I always laugh at the run support figures. A guy who gets 0.000 run support gets 0.000 sympathy if his ERA is 12.00. A guy who gets 12 runs of support a game is still great if his ERA is 2.50.

Is this just a digression or did someone actually imply that Farrell helped turn Price to shit?
 

tims4wins

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Jul 15, 2005
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You're the one who brought it up. You could have left your post at:

Absolutely but I've become accustomed to over priced free agents tanking it up once they get here. Price actually has a FIP (b-ref) a full run better than his ERA so he hasn't been that bad. He's been unlucky getting little to no run support as of late.
Edit: to bring the discussion back on point - how could firing him possibly hurt?
 

rembrat

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May 26, 2006
36,345
Is this just a digression or did someone actually imply that Farrell helped turn Price to shit?
It started when I listed a group of absolute shit pitchers that can seemingly be negated by one pitcher whose been here for 3 months. I apologize for pointing out that Farrell has been saddled with a sea of 4/5s since the start of 2014.
 

uncannymanny

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Jan 12, 2007
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It started when I listed a group of absolute shit pitchers that can seemingly be negated by one pitcher whose been here for 3 months. I apologize for pointing out that Farrell has been saddled with a sea of 4/5s since the start of 2014.
You're the ace rembrat.
 

8slim

has trust issues
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I'm not screaming for Farrell to be replaced, and I won't be upset if he isn't, but at the same time I'm not sure why he deserves a full-throated campaign to be retained either.

He strikes me as a generally smart guy with many strengths and some notable weaknesses. Pretty much like every other manager who has compiled a mediocre overall record.

I understood those who were strongly advocating Francona being retained after 2011. He certainly had a track record that warranted that. Farrell? Eh, I suspect there are dozens of managers as good as him, some better, and of course some worse.

I wouldn't lay the majority of the team's recent poor performance at his feet, but if the FO decides that it's time for a shake up I understand that sentiment too.

In other words: meh, whatever.
 

glennhoffmania

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I'm not screaming for Farrell to be replaced, and I won't be upset if he isn't, but at the same time I'm not sure why he deserves a full-throated campaign to be retained either.

He strikes me as a generally smart guy with many strengths and some notable weaknesses. Pretty much like every other manager who has compiled a mediocre overall record.

I understood those who were strongly advocating Francona being retained after 2011. He certainly had a track record that warranted that. Farrell? Eh, I suspect there are dozens of managers as good as him, some better, and of course some worse.

I wouldn't lay the majority of the team's recent poor performance at his feet, but if the FO decides that it's time for a shake up I understand that sentiment too.

In other words: meh, whatever.
Yup. I don't get the attachment to him that some apparently have. It certainly wouldn't be unfair or totally nuts to make a change. I'm not even saying he needs to go. But I don't understand why some people react so strongly to the idea of getting rid of him.
 

Pilgrim

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Well just going by what I've seen in some game threads, there are some people who seem to think that the shitty performances are the fault of the players and, to some extent, the FO. When JBJ stupidly attempts a stupid bunt, it's his fault. When Farrell sends LaMarre up with the bases loaded, it was Pedroia's fault for not ending the game sooner. And on and on.
He pinch hit LaMarre for Marco Hernadez, against a lefty specialist. I don't buy this as an example of horrible in game management.
 

alwyn96

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Aug 24, 2005
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Yup. I don't get the attachment to him that some apparently have. It certainly wouldn't be unfair or totally nuts to make a change. I'm not even saying he needs to go. But I don't understand why some people react so strongly to the idea of getting rid of him.
I'm actually kind of surprised there isn't stronger sentiment from both sides. Often firing a manager can be a polarizing discussion with people calling each other idiots right off the bat, but the most contentious issue so far here seems to be the precise definition of good run support.
 
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joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Yup. I don't get the attachment to him that some apparently have. It certainly wouldn't be unfair or totally nuts to make a change. I'm not even saying he needs to go. But I don't understand why some people react so strongly to the idea of getting rid of him.
My reaction is to the "he must go. Now. And then things will get better because John Farrell is all that's standing between the RedSox and 125 wins" crowd. That, and every single failure being laid at his feet. Maybe (maybe?) those are strawmen equivalents to the "he bears no responsibility at all and firing would be a travesty" characterization, one which also overstates the "maybe firing him wont change much if the pitching still sucks" crowd. But I think I see much more "Farrell sucks and is keeping this team from being successful" around here than I do "Farrell is great and firing would be a travesty." I suspect that's a function of things that go wrong can be blamed on him, but its hard to give the manager credit for much when things go right.

If he gets turfed I understand it. If he doesn't, I can see why, too. I'm with 8slim:
In other words: meh, whatever.
 
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