Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

Sox and Rocks

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BigSoxFan said:
You think this was done without LeBron's blessing?
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think every single trade needs approval from the star player. This is a relatively minor one.

If I'm wrong and lebron did sign off, he will soon regret it
 

luckiestman

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JR seems like a head case but playing for a contender under Lebron might keep him in check
 

jon abbey

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NY must be the worst team in the league right now, definitely below PHI and probably below MIN. Today's matinee at MSG had CHA up 89-44 after three quarters. 89-44, that is correct.
 

jon abbey

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They've lost 9 in a row by double figures now, not even competitive, 16 overall. As a diehard Knicks fan, I hope they lose 70 games every year as long as Dolan is the owner because fuck that guy. 
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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jon abbey said:
They've lost 9 in a row by double figures now, not even competitive, 16 overall. As a diehard Knicks fan, I hope they lose 70 games every year as long as Dolan is the owner because fuck that guy. 
11 away from the all time record. Not the toughest stretch coming up, but I wouldn't be shocked at all too see them get there.
 

Kliq

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That honestly doesn't sound real. Is James Dolan known for personally responding to all of his mail?
 

Huntington Avenue Grounds

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Kliq said:
That honestly doesn't sound real. Is James Dolan known for personally responding to all of his mail?
 
 
It's being reported as confirmed that it's him on local news outlets.  Since moving to NJ I've been stunned how completely tone deaf the pro franchises seem to be towards their fans.  It's like Victor Kiam clones are running amok.  Makes me appreciate how amazingly lucky Boston fans are to have the ownership groups they do.
 

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Huntington Avenue Grounds said:
 
 
It's being reported as confirmed that it's him on local news outlets.  Since moving to NJ I've been stunned how completely tone deaf the pro franchises seem to be towards their fans.  It's like Victor Kiam clones are running amok.  Makes me appreciate how amazingly lucky Boston fans are to have the ownership groups they do.
If not for Kraft I'm not sure Boston as a whole would be considered any better than other cities. Certainly Jacobs has had many detractors over the years, Henry/Lucchino ran Theo out of town, and you can probably search SoSH for Wyc's nasty email of Dolan proportions that he sent me on draft night one year. To Wyc's credit he apologized the next day, sent 4 Loge tickets to my Dad along with a nice letter which was truly awesome......but goes to show you don't have to be James Dolan to make an emotional and dumb PR decision in the heat of the moment.

Edit: It may have been on old SoSH not sure of that's searchable or not. It was around 2005.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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HomeRunBaker said:
If not for Kraft I'm not sure Boston as a whole would be considered any better than other cities. Certainly Jacobs has had many detractors over the years, Henry/Lucchino ran Theo out of town, and you can probably search SoSH for Wyc's nasty email of Dolan proportions that he sent me on draft night one year. To Wyc's credit he apologized the next day, sent 4 Loge tickets to my Dad along with a nice letter which was truly awesome......but goes to show you don't have to be James Dolan to make an emotional and dumb PR decision in the heat of the moment.

Edit: It may have been on old SoSH not sure of that's searchable or not. It was around 2005.
 
What'd it say? And what prompted it?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
What'd it say? And what prompted it?
It was draft night in '03, '04 or '05 and a rumored deal was out there that we passed on or was simply an unsubstantiated rumor. Someone posted Wyc's email......so I lit him up lol. Then he responded in detail with specifics of why the rumor wasn't true and that I knew nothing. It was a nasty email but like I said it was in the heat of battle and he responded admirably the following day.

Edit: The more I think about this it had to do with the Pierce for the draft rights to Chris Paul who I was super high on being a star in this league. I was pissed when I found that Pierce was the one who killed it by refusing to sign an extension if traded.
 

OCST

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I know there are terrible owners in all sports, but for some reason, the NBA seems to attract the worst of the worst.  Stepien, Sterling, Dolan... jeez.
 

Huntington Avenue Grounds

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HomeRunBaker said:
If not for Kraft I'm not sure Boston as a whole would be considered any better than other cities. Certainly Jacobs has had many detractors over the years, Henry/Lucchino ran Theo out of town, and you can probably search SoSH for Wyc's nasty email of Dolan proportions that he sent me on draft night one year. To Wyc's credit he apologized the next day, sent 4 Loge tickets to my Dad along with a nice letter which was truly awesome......but goes to show you don't have to be James Dolan to make an emotional and dumb PR decision in the heat of the moment.

Edit: It may have been on old SoSH not sure of that's searchable or not. It was around 2005.
 
I can't stand Jacobs, and even Kraft as an MLS owner has left a lot to be desired, so there are plenty of wrong moves being made by the local owners, your interaction with Wyc being one of them.  But when those are the outliers, and the hiring/personnel moves are part an overall pattern that shows shrewd hires and the foresight to get out of the way and let the experts run day to day operations, you tend to get franchises that are stable and will be in contention more often than not.  Dolan going after a long time (and long suffering) fan is an indication of how out of touch and directionless the club has become.
 
I wonder if Dolan steps up to make amends in any way like Wyc did with you?  
 

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OilCanShotTupac said:
I know there are terrible owners in all sports, but for some reason, the NBA seems to attract the worst of the worst.  Stepien, Sterling, Dolan... jeez.
To be fair these owners (or owners Dad in Dolan's case) had been in place for over 30 years. The new owners over the past 10-15 years have been by and large tremendous for the game with one exception in the Russian.
 

Tony C

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Wow, that's amazing. Most incredible thing is the letter to which he was responding was harsh, sure, but when I heard about this story I assumed that, at least, he was responding to some hateful stuff. But the original letter writer was relatively restrained (not to mention correct).
 
The term loser gets thrown around a lot, but Dolan sure as hell is the definition of one.
 

jimv

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OilCanShotTupac said:
I know there are terrible owners in all sports, but for some reason, the NBA seems to attract the worst of the worst.  Stepien, Sterling, Dolan... jeez.
I would bet NFL owners are as bad or worse but the league does a better job controlling the message
 

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jon abbey said:
NY must be the worst team in the league right now, definitely below PHI and probably below MIN. Today's matinee at MSG had CHA up 89-44 after three quarters. 89-44, that is correct.
 
So, you've come to grips with the reality there is not more upside on the roster, right?
 

oumbi

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Reports coming through that Knicks may have bought out Stoudemire.

http://nydn.us/1DWXa3w
 
From the Daily News: 
Knicks, Amar’e Stoudemire agree to buyout, ending former All-Star’s tenure in New York: source
 

HomeRunBaker

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
Really excited to watch Amar'e try and learn a new defensive system on the fly.
Amar'e is in a similar spot as Rondo was prior to going to Dallas. Both players are poor defending laterally however they will certainly both look better in a system with some accountability on a winner veteran-laden team.

Offensively this could be a coup for the Mavs. If Rondo got the best out of Zeller in the pick-n-roll running with Amar'e is the closest that the latter has had since he left Nash and Phoenix. His skillset is that of a roller down the lane not in a triangle system.

I'm still not high on the Mavs I think they are near the bottom of WC playoff contenders but Amar'e is a nice pickup for them.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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HomeRunBaker said:
Amar'e is in a similar spot as Rondo was prior to going to Dallas. Both players are poor defending laterally however they will certainly both look better in a system with some accountability on a winner veteran-laden team.

Offensively this could be a coup for the Mavs. If Rondo got the best out of Zeller in the pick-n-roll running with Amar'e is the closest that the latter has had since he left Nash and Phoenix. His skillset is that of a roller down the lane not in a triangle system.

I'm still not high on the Mavs I think they are near the bottom of WC playoff contenders but Amar'e is a nice pickup for them.
 
Amar'e just hasn't been an explosive, effective pick and roll player for a long time now. This year he's slightly below average as a roll man, and defensively he's completely clueless.
 
The Mavs were the right choice for him, because they lack any big man depth and he'll get time, but Amar'e just isn't an effective NBA player these days and had he gone somewhere like San Antonio probably wouldn't have cracked a fully healthy Spurs playoff rotation. He'll get the minutes in Dallas with the bench unit, but he can't share the floor with Dirk and as a result won't be on the floor for any crunch time minutes. I also suspect that his body wont be able to handle a playoff schedule, especially after Dallas has to fight down the stretch to maintain seeding.
 
To be clear, it's a low risk signing for Dallas, so why not? But I don't think this is gonna be a coup for them, and I don't think his body is really capable of holding up as a high usage p&r guy, even on short minutes.
 

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
Amar'e just hasn't been an explosive, effective pick and roll player for a long time now. This year he's slightly below average as a roll man, and defensively he's completely clueless.
 
Both of these are accentuated by the Knicks not running a pick-n-roll offense which is pretty much all Dallas runs and he's been in a losing situation which as we saw with Rondo doesn't lead to players caring or focusing much on stops.

He's not a world beater but I'm confident he'll be effective for Dallas in the role for which they utilize him.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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HomeRunBaker said:
Both of these are accentuated by the Knicks not running a pick-n-roll offense which is pretty much all Dallas runs and he's been in a losing situation which as we saw with Rondo doesn't lead to players caring or focusing much on stops.

He's not a world beater but I'm confident he'll be effective for Dallas in the role for which they utilize him.
 
Knicks have run plenty of pick and roll, specifically to get Amar'e more involved. In fact, they're fourth in the league in pick and roll possessions. They just aren't very good at it. Amar'e scores 1.05 points per pick and roll, which makes him worse than Villanueva (1.08) and Smith (1.21), the bigs he was brought in to replace. For what it's worth, it also puts him well behind Brandon Wright, who averaged 1.42 points per pick and roll in Dallas and is averaging 1.62 in Phoenix.
 
And during the entire Woodson tenure, the Knicks ran a variation of D'Antoni's sets and Amar'e's body just couldn't hold up. A lot of people seem to be suggesting that Amar'e will just slot into Brandon Wright's old role and that he'll benefit from finally being back in a pick and roll offense, but he's had plenty of opportunities to run the p & r over the last three seasons and he just hasn't been very good nor has his body proven it can hold up.
 

radsoxfan

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
Knicks have run plenty of pick and roll, specifically to get Amar'e more involved. In fact, they're fourth in the league in pick and roll possessions. They just aren't very good at it. Amar'e scores 1.05 points per pick and roll, which makes him worse than Villanueva (1.08) and Smith (1.21), the bigs he was brought in to replace. For what it's worth, it also puts him well behind Brandon Wright, who averaged 1.42 points per pick and roll in Dallas and is averaging 1.62 in Phoenix.
 
And during the entire Woodson tenure, the Knicks ran a variation of D'Antoni's sets and Amar'e's body just couldn't hold up. A lot of people seem to be suggesting that Amar'e will just slot into Brandon Wright's old role and that he'll benefit from finally being back in a pick and roll offense, but he's had plenty of opportunities to run the p & r over the last three seasons and he just hasn't been very good nor has his body proven it can hold up.
 
 
Appreciate the numbers, but although it might feel like it sometimes, the NBA isn't just a pick and roll contest. Stoudamire obviously is an injury risk and can't play big minutes, but I'm not sure why you'd claim he isn't an effective NBA player as you did in your prior post.  He's averaging 12 points, 7 rebounds in 24 minutes on 54% shooting. He has a PER of 19.7 and a WS/48 of .124.
 
I suppose it's worth noting that those expecting a big bump in Dallas from a pick and roll offense might be disappointed, but even if he doesn't improve at all, that's a pretty nice 20 minute/game pickup for the Dallas bench.  
 

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radsoxfan said:
 
 
Appreciate the numbers, but although it might feel like it sometimes, the NBA isn't just a pick and roll contest. Stoudamire obviously is an injury risk and can't play big minutes, but I'm not sure why you'd claim he isn't an effective NBA player as you did in your prior post.  He's averaging 12 points, 7 rebounds in 24 minutes on 54% shooting. He has a PER of 19.7 and a WS/48 of .124.
 
I suppose it's worth noting that those expecting a big bump in Dallas from a pick and roll offense might be disappointed, but even if he doesn't improve at all, that's a pretty nice 20 minute/game pickup for the Dallas bench.  
 
The injury risk and lack of minutes are the basis for my feeling that he's not an effective NBA player anymore.
 
He's a guy who has only been capable of playing in 2/3rds of the Knicks games this year. The Knicks treated him like an everyday player for the first 27 games of the season; since then, he's appeared in 9 of their last 25 games. In those games, he's averaged just over 15 minutes a game. Add to that that he's an atrocious defender--in fact, it might not be a stretch at all to say he's the league's worst defender--and I just don't feel like he's going to have a positive impact on the Mavs bench.
 
I'd love for Amar'e to be successful in Dallas. His first half of a season in New York was some of the most fun I've had watching the Knicks (low bar, I know) and I wish him the best. His contract isn't his fault, and he's always been a hard worker and by all accounts he seems like a good guy. I just don't think his body is capable of holding up over the final 28 games of the regular season and a playoff schedule.
 

radsoxfan

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
The injury risk and lack of minutes are the basis for my feeling that he's not an effective NBA player anymore.
 
 
Well that's a different story.  He's been relatively effective when he plays, he just can't play very much (no surprise there).
 
A good chunk of your arguments seemed to be centered on what he did when he's on the court though, which was the somewhat confusing part.  In those minutes he has performed reasonably well, especially for a bench player, at least on offense. 
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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radsoxfan said:
 
Well that's a different story.  He's been relatively effective when he plays, he just can't play very much (no surprise there).
 
A good chunk of your arguments seemed to be centered on what he did when he's on the court though, which was the somewhat confusing part.  In those minutes he has performed reasonably well, especially for a bench player, at least on offense. 
 
The discussion about what he's done on the court was a direct response to others' assertions that Amar'e--as a good pick and roll player--would be in a situation in Dallas that utilized his strengths. I was just pointing out that while it is still his strength, that strength is relative, and he grades out as a below average pick and roll finisher these days. I think that's largely due to his injry history and the fact that his body just doesn't let him do the things he used to do finishing the pick and roll. The very common response to this trade has been to look at Brandon Wright's production in Dallas and suggest that Amar'e can provide some, or even most, of that. I think it's unlikely he even approaches that level of finishing, and I also think any attempt to use him like that will end poorly as his body wont hold up.

To be clear, there's no risk here for Dallas. He's cheap and will be a free agent again in a couple of months, but I'll be pretty shocked if he ends up playing substantial playoff minutes.
 

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At Phil Jackson's end of the season PC today he promised to attract big ticket free agents with three selling points: the triangle offense, playing with Melo and the coaching staff's history of winning. Is he delusional or just straight up lying?
 

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ifmanis5 said:
At Phil Jackson's end of the season PC today he promised to attract big ticket free agents with three selling points: the triangle offense, playing with Melo and the coaching staff's history of winning. Is he delusional or just straight up lying?
 
Dan Murfman said:
If Phil doesn't work out maybe MSG can move over their new president of their WNBA team. Seems like an odd hire especially considering the sexual harrassment suit.
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/isiah-thomas-hired-president-wnba-liberty-article-1.2210943
 
THIS IS THE GREATEST ORGANIZATION IN SPORTS
 

HomeRunBaker

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My opinion of Tex Winter's Triange......

Triange works with Jordan and Kobe.....it doesn't without them.

The Square and The Circle works with Jordan and Kobe.....it doesn't without them.


The Triangle offense may be the biggest fraud in the history of sports. So misunderstood.....it's so meaningless it shouldn't even be overrated, it shouldn't be rated at all. <endofrant>
 

Tony C

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I don't know...given that San Antonio and Golden State run the offenses that are most similar to the Triangle, and have won the last two championships, there does seem to be a continuation of a pattern that really talented teams get over the hump when put into a more sophisticated, free flowing offense. 
 
Thought the following quote from it was good. 
 
Jackson said of Jordan: “He had to work so damn hard against Detroit. They relied on pressure, coming further and further upcourt, challenging the guards. We used automatics, and Michael saw what it can do. The ability to adjust, make changes, have counters, gave dominance to the Bulls and Lakers.”
And, Jackson said, just as the triangle helped Jordan thrive, Jordan was the hypotenuse, completing the system.
“Even if you have a good system with nice ball movement, good activity,” he said, “you need a special player to finish the game.”
When Bryant is told that the triangle prospered only because he was involved, he objects. “You’re supposed to win with a bunch of bums?” he said. “It baffles me to hear people talk about how this is a team sport and then say the triangle was only successful because Phil had great players. We were successful because we played in such a beautiful system. We had great coaches. It’s all in conjunction.”
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
My opinion of Tex Winter's Triange......

Triange works with Jordan and Kobe.....it doesn't without them.

The Square and The Circle works with Jordan and Kobe.....it doesn't without them.


The Triangle offense may be the biggest fraud in the history of sports. So misunderstood.....it's so meaningless it shouldn't even be overrated, it shouldn't be rated at all. <endofrant>
The Triangle is no better or worse than any other decent system to me. I don't know why a team would run it now though. The motion that the Spurs, Dubs, Hawks, etc run, has all of the same advantages, while being less rigid and complex, it is more in keeping with what guys have done before, so it is easier to learn. It also does a better job of creating higher value shots. The Triangle of old at least generated a lot of midrange and long 2s.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yeah, it's kind of a stretch to say that Spurs and GS success is Triangle--it really isn't the same system, though there are some common principles.  I think the truth of the triangle is that it worked when you had an apex-level top gun and a strong supporting case...which is true of a whole lot of schemes.
 

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Tony C said:
When Bryant is told that the triangle prospered only because he was involved, he objects. Youre supposed to win with a bunch of bums? he said. It baffles me to hear people talk about how this is a team sport and then say the triangle was only successful because Phil had great players. We were successful because we played in such a beautiful system. We had great coaches. Its all in conjunction.
Who the heck says the NBA is a TEAM sport, Kobe? It is a Superstars league. Superstars win Championships in this league not well orchestrated Teams. Great coaches??? The Celtics won 3 titles with KC Jones! The Lakers system was some phony motion with a name attached to it then when the shot clock hits single digits you dump it to Shaq or iso Kobe......awesome coaching and system there.