Jaylen or Tatum?

If the Celtics could only keep one of them, who would you prefer that they keep?

  • Jaylen Brown

  • Jayson Tatum


Results are only viewable after voting.

lovegtm

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Someone more familiar with the tools than me -- I wonder how much of Tatums 3pt shooting is a difference in catch and shoot vs ball in hand. When he was at a very high percentage earlier in the year a lot of those threes were assisted spot up shots. His three point release on those shots looks a bit slow but then he's money. Without the time to shoot he hesitates. In the playoffs he's been a primary playmaker and hasn't had as many open spot up assisted opportunities and instead has been shooting off the dribble.

I think one of the top things for his off-season list is working on shooting 3s off the dribble and/or with a step back.
My guess is that that's coming. He had to do a lot of work all the way through the summer to get comfortable on his spot-up 3, and then it was the season, where you don't really want to be breaking down your shot.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I’m not sure what thread to post this in, but Bill Simmons had Wyc Grousbeck on at the end of his Friday podcast, and Wyc had an interesting account of how the negotiation for the Brooklyn trade went down, including how the pick swap that landed the them #1 pick, and eventually Tatum, got included:

As I recall — and Danny may remember slightly differently — but as I recall, he came to me with that deal on draft day [in 2013] and said, “We’re going to get two first-round picks from Brooklyn for [Garnett, Pierce, Terry, and White], and take on some contracts.” And I said, “OK, are [the picks] unprotected?” And he said, “Yes, in fact, they are.” I said, “Great. Let’s go get a third pick.” And he goes, “Whoa, whoa, whoa,” but, “All right, I’ll ask.” And he’s not afraid to ask, he wasn’t pushing back. But he went and asked, and he said, “Unbelievable. We got a third pick. This is great.” And I said, “Great. Go get a fourth pick. I think these guys have deal fever — we’re going to keep going until they say no. I think they’ve been told by ownership to get the deal done, so let’s go back.” And Danny sort of gave me a look, like I don’t want to lose the deal by pushing too hard. Normally we try to play down the middle of the road with people, [but] I said, “Go push aggressively for a fourth pick.”

And so he went back, he came back to me and he said, “OK, you’ve got your wish. They’ve said no now … they’re not going to give us a fourth pick.” I said fine, make that fourth pick into a swap. Because swapping a pick doesn’t feel like you’re losing a pick. You still have a pick, and it’s pretty unlikely that we would be able to swap — that would mean we were better than they are. And we think they’re going to be pretty good with this trade. So just get the swap and call it a day. So we got that swap, and that swap turned into Jayson Tatum and another first-round pick.
https://www.theringer.com/2018/5/11/17346416/bill-simmons-podcast-celtics-owner-wyc-grousbeck-brooklyn-trade
 

BigSoxFan

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I’m not sure what thread to post this in, but Bill Simmons had Wyc Grousbeck on at the end of his Friday podcast, and Wyc had an interesting account of how the negotiation for the Brooklyn trade went down, including how the pick swap that landed the them #1 pick, and eventually Tatum, got included:


https://www.theringer.com/2018/5/11/17346416/bill-simmons-podcast-celtics-owner-wyc-grousbeck-brooklyn-trade
I’ll forever be amazed at the stupidity of the Nets.

Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Kyrie Irving

We got all 3 players because of one trade. Ridiculous.
 

southshoresoxfan

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I’ll forever be amazed at the stupidity of the Nets.

Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Kyrie Irving

We got all 3 players because of one trade. Ridiculous.
With a lottery pick pending.

My favorite rabbit hole to go down is how they acquired IT (who in turn became Kyrie).

It all started with a trade exception I believe from trading Kris Humphries.
 

Reverend

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With a lottery pick pending.

My favorite rabbit hole to go down is how they acquired IT (who in turn became Kyrie).

It all started with a trade exception I believe from trading Kris Humphries.
This is explored at least in part in this exchange elsewhere here. And yeah... it's mind blowing.

Does anyone remember XNOUGHT's famous post about Ainge and Captain John Sparrow?
 

Eddie Jurak

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With a lottery pick pending.

My favorite rabbit hole to go down is how they acquired IT (who in turn became Kyrie).

It all started with a trade exception I believe from trading Kris Humphries.
The Celtics also included some stuff in the deal that they essentially got for free in exchange for helping the Cavs shed salary so that they could sign Lebron. In a 3-way deal with the Nets:
  • Cleveland shipped out Jarrett Jack (to Brooklyn), Sergey Karasev (to Brooklyn), Tyler Zeller (to Boston), and a top 10 protected first round pick (to Boston)
  • Brooklyn sent Marcus Thornton to Boston
  • Boston gave up essentially nothing. There might have been one of Danny's top 55 protected second round picks that didn't end up conveying in the deal.
Those players shipped out by Cleveland made a total of $9.3 million in salary, which is why they made the deal.

The draft pick (which later became Skal Labissiere) and Thornton went to Phoenix in the IT deal.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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He's also been playing every other day in the playoffs after a full 82 game season as a rookie, his legs are probably tired. The more spread out schedule in the ECF should hopefully help improve his outside shooting.
considering the lack of options on the c’s that can make their own offense, this doesn’t really surprise me. it’s pretty evident he’s not getting many open looks and had been forced off the arc consistently against the sixers. what has separated him from rookie performance and veteran is his ability to pull it down and drive to the basket.

with kyrie spacing the floor, his numbers probably look a lot more like his season averages. agreed with whoever also said he’s probably tired.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I cannot fucking believe these two. If Tatum even approaches Brown’s growth curve, and Jaylen keeps it up, we’re looking at two of the best wings in the NBA over the next decade or so.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Yes, but he got his 16th point with 7:52 to play and then sat with 6:10 left for the rest of the way. In a close game he's playing and, odds are, scoring those 4 points.
 

TripleOT

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48.7% and 41.5% from three for Brown in the playoffs.
45.9% and 31.1% from three for Tatum.

Brown increasing his percentages in the playoffs is very impressive (His FT shooting is worse). Tatum's accuracy is suffering because he's being asked to generate more shots, with 51% of baskets assisted in the playoffs, to 66% in the regular season. Generating big playoff points is asking a lot for a rookie who is about to play his 100th total game this week, including exhibition and playoffs. Brown is still generating his offense like he did in the regular season, with 64% of baskets assisted, to 67% in the regular season.
 

Sprowl

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It’s worth noting that Tatum has more than once demonstrated the ability to create his own three-point shot off the dribble in the playoffs. He could always get his own mid-range shot off the dribble, but until May he always made his three pointers off the catch and shoot. Another step forward for Bae #2.
 

Sam Ray Not

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This is a DUMB poll unworthy of SoSH.
Right down to the thread title gratuitously using Jaylen's first name and Jayson's last name.

You guys should either lock the thread or change the topic to something more like "just to be clear, we're not trading either of them ever, but which of the two gave you a bigger woody today?"
 
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amarshal2

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It’s worth noting that Tatum has more than once demonstrated the ability to create his own three-point shot off the dribble in the playoffs. He could always get his own mid-range shot off the dribble, but until May he always made his three pointers off the catch and shoot. Another step forward for Bae #2.
I was wondering if he read the thread.

Someone more familiar with the tools than me -- I wonder how much of Tatums 3pt shooting is a difference in catch and shoot vs ball in hand. When he was at a very high percentage earlier in the year a lot of those threes were assisted spot up shots. His three point release on those shots looks a bit slow but then he's money. Without the time to shoot he hesitates. In the playoffs he's been a primary playmaker and hasn't had as many open spot up assisted opportunities and instead has been shooting off the dribble.

I think one of the top things for his off-season list is working on shooting 3s off the dribble and/or with a step back.
 

riboflav

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Right down to the thread title gratuitously using Jaylen's first name and Jayson's last name.

You guys should either lock the thread or change the topic to something more like "just to be clear, we're not trading either of them ever, but which of the two gave you a bigger woody today?"
Here Here
 

Marbleheader

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1. If you don't like the thread, then go start another one and stop polluting this one with your incessant whining.

2. Fans refer to them as Jaylen and Tatum in case you haven't noticed.

3. It was part of the Kawhi discussion, the topic didn't come out of nowhere.
 
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Sam Ray Not

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Ah, I didn't know about "Jaylen and Tatum." Seems illogical, but I'll go with it. Fwiw, I love the thread — was just playfully noting how its meaning has evolved over the last few weeks, from "who would you keep?" to, as Danny Darwinism put it, "I cannot fucking believe these two."
 
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Cesar Crespo

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I don't why people bother judging draft picks before we see the player in an NBA system, anyway but I'm not a very reactionary person.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Interesting to see the reactions to the Jaylen pick in the draft game thread:

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/nba-draft-game-thread.14665/
This board (myself fully included) has a pretty bad track record of judging Danny's decisions in the moment. People hated the Jaylen pick, people hated the trade of the #1 pick (more than one poster called it a potential "franchise-killer"), and people were pretty down on the Kyrie trade too initially, although I feel like we talked ourselves into that one a bit quicker.

Especially when it comes to draft picks, the past few years have taught me that even if you follow all the pre-draft coverage we know such a small sliver of the data/scouting/thought process behind each pick that trying to judge a pick in the moment is close to impossible (not that that will stop us!).

Danny has made a career of going against conventional wisdom (ok, I guess the Garnett trade and the Hayward signing were in line with the CW), so at this point I would almost be more worried if he made a big move and we all instantly liked it.
 

BigSoxFan

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This board (myself fully included) has a pretty bad track record of judging Danny's decisions in the moment. People hated the Jaylen pick, people hated the trade of the #1 pick (more than one poster called it a potential "franchise-killer"), and people were pretty down on the Kyrie trade too initially, although I feel like we talked ourselves into that one a bit quicker.

Especially when it comes to draft picks, the past few years have taught me that even if you follow all the pre-draft coverage we know such a small sliver of the data/scouting/thought process behind each pick that trying to judge a pick in the moment is close to impossible (not that that will stop us!).

Danny has made a career of going against conventional wisdom (ok, I guess the Garnett trade and the Hayward signing were in line with the CW), so at this point I would almost be more worried if he made a big move and we all instantly liked it.
Really is too bad this place didn’t exist in the 90s.

We got Moiso at #11? Steal!
 

SumnerH

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Ah, I didn't know about "Jaylen and Tatum." Seems illogical, but I'll go with it.
It's fairly common to pick the more unusual name as the one to use with sports figures, since there's less chance of confusion that way—Brown and Jason are more likely to overlap with an opposing player or teammate. See, e.g., Manny, Trot, and Mookie but Youk, Tek, and Benintendi.
 

Sam Ray Not

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It's fairly common to pick the more unusual name as the one to use with sports figures, since there's less chance of confusion that way—Brown and Jason are more likely to overlap with an opposing player or teammate. See, e.g., Manny, Trot, and Mookie but Youk, Tek, and Benintendi.
Yeah, I get that. I would just think the alliterative pairing of Jaylen and Jayson (both with the silent Ys) would be a natural, and I think Jayson/Jason is a sufficiently unusual name not to overlap too much. (Plus "Tatum" sometimes makes me think of Darryl Stingley and feel sad, but that's cos I'm an old Gen-Xer...)
 

Hagios

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I would love to see a graph of the phrase "in Ainge we trust" on this board. I'm guessing it didn't really start exploding until the win streak at the start of the season.

Would anyone here trade Brown for either Simmons or Ingram straight up (contract included)?

With Simmons there has always been the "but wait until he plays better defenses in the playoffs" caveat.

I think most neutral fans would choose Ingram out of the three, but I'm increasingly starting to feel like Brown has that MJ-esque killer mindset that will make him the best in the long run.
 

InstaFace

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Also, it's "hear, hear" not "here, here."
Unless you're buried under a pile of rubble and calling for help, I suppose.

Interesting to see the reactions to the Jaylen pick in the draft game thread:

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/nba-draft-game-thread.14665/
Wow. Some serious greatness there, starting with the lead-up:

For all that is holy just don't trade next year's Nets pick.
Prescient.

Twitter:
ESPN sources say Philadelphia is offering Nerlens Noel, No. 24 and No. 26 in tonight's draft and Robert Covington for Boston's No. 3 pick
Hilarious, even at the time.
any way the C's can get NN and Philly's 1st rounder next year for the #3?
Creepily prescient.
I vote "Remain Clinton" in this draft.

Did I do it right?
I miss @zenter.
Gotta take Dunn and dangle him out there like meat to lions.
Jaylen pick is announced. 4 people liked it: @Marbleheader, @FelixMantilla, @RoDaddy and @SoxFanInPdx . And Wycliffe Grousbeck. A sampling of the others:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN 20s21 seconds ago
Celtics will take Jaylen Brown, sources told ESPN.
once again we can't get a deal done
Ugh I hate that pick, cannot believe couldn't get a deal done
Fuck this shit.

Ainge got roasted when the Sixers and Bulls called his bluff. Should taken the deal for Okafor or Noel.
Ainge has rarely done draft day well, this is nothing new.
Terrible, terrible pick.
I'm just waiting to get fist raped by colangelo. It's coming
(wow dude - you got Simmons!)
So the key to being drafted by Ainge is to agree to play 5 on 5 in workouts. It's enough to erase a terrible statistical college season apparently.
Maybe they think Brown is a swing for the fences shot and the pick next year is the going to be the golden boy.
I mean, DD wasn't wrong... just needed a why-not-both.gif
I told myself I couldn't be disappointed tonight if I had low expectations.. and here I am disappointed
Bulls wanted LaVine and #5 for Butler so Crowder and #3 would have definitely been in play.

Fuck Ainge.
Fuck Ainge, indeed.
Robert Covington is not a "solid 3&D wing," he just may have looked like that playing on a historically terrible team.
But reading the first 10 pages of that thread was not all wincing in retrospect, because there was this legitimate gem of a story by HRB that deserves resurfacing:
Wyc gets REALLY fired up on draft night and pretty much loses his mind. Don't know if you were around a decade ago but I sent him an email blasting him and he responded by blasting me back. I woke up the next morning with an apology and 4 club seats for us at a game that he sent to my Dad with a nice letter.
The idea that Wyc is just as much of a fire-breathing, green-underpants Celtics fanatic as the rest of us is really endearing. He just gets a say in things, too.
 

chilidawg

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Would anyone here trade Brown for either Simmons or Ingram straight up (contract included)?

With Simmons there has always been the "but wait until he plays better defenses in the playoffs" caveat.

I think most neutral fans would choose Ingram out of the three, but I'm increasingly starting to feel like Brown has that MJ-esque killer mindset that will make him the best in the long run.
Wow, I would have guessed no one would take Ingram. Before the Philly series I would have taken Simmons, but now it's a toss up for me. I think Simmons has a big time future, but Jaylen's ballin' in a big way right now.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Unless you're buried under a pile of rubble and calling for help, I suppose.


Wow. Some serious greatness there, starting with the lead-up:


Prescient.


Hilarious, even at the time.

Creepily prescient.

I miss @zenter.


Jaylen pick is announced. 4 people liked it: @Marbleheader, @FelixMantilla, @RoDaddy and @SoxFanInPdx . And Wycliffe Grousbeck. A sampling of the others:














(wow dude - you got Simmons!)



I mean, DD wasn't wrong... just needed a why-not-both.gif



Fuck Ainge, indeed.

But reading the first 10 pages of that thread was not all wincing in retrospect, because there was this legitimate gem of a story by HRB that deserves resurfacing:

The idea that Wyc is just as much of a fire-breathing, green-underpants Celtics fanatic as the rest of us is really endearing. He just gets a say in things, too.
In fairness, LondonSox was prescient to hate the pick. :)
 

Jed Zeppelin

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To be fair to Drocca he was just perpetually mad that Jaylen chose to play at Cal instead of the ACC.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Wow, I would have guessed no one would take Ingram. Before the Philly series I would have taken Simmons, but now it's a toss up for me. I think Simmons has a big time future, but Jaylen's ballin' in a big way right now.
I'd take Jaylen Brown but there isn't much difference between him, Jamal Murray and Brandon Ingram. It's more a pick your flavor and I'd rather have the big wing player who plays better defense than guards with more offensive upside.

As for Ben Simmons, I tend to keep my opinion to myself because all I see is a tall Rajon Rondo. That has tremendous value but you have to build your team around him. Brown, Murray and Ingram would fit in any system and all 3 have serious room for growth. Most of Ben Simmons projected greatness is based on skills he doesn't have yet. If he does develop an outside game... watch out. Just seems like a huge if.

The question I want answered is Jayson Tatum or Donovan Mitchell?
 

PedroKsBambino

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Wow, I would have guessed no one would take Ingram. Before the Philly series I would have taken Simmons, but now it's a toss up for me. I think Simmons has a big time future, but Jaylen's ballin' in a big way right now.
I agree, I think vast majority of NBA fans would pick Simmons.

I would too, though the margin for him over both Ingram (my second choice) and Brown (just behind Ingram) has shrunk considerably over the last three months.
 

nighthob

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The question I want answered is Jayson Tatum or Donovan Mitchell?
Jay Tay all day. And it isn't even close. I was as right about Tatum as I was wrong about Brown. (I lucked out by avoiding the game thread, but I made snide remarks in Brown's post-draft thread and prior to the draft said that I was fine with Brown if they were trading down into the 6-9 range.)
 

BostonWolverine

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Ah, I didn't know about "Jaylen and Tatum." Seems illogical, but I'll go with it. Fwiw, I love the thread — was just playfully noting how its meaning has evolved over the last few weeks, from "who would you keep?" to, as Danny Darwinism put it, "I cannot fucking believe these two."
I don't think it's completely illogical. People will use the shortest thing they can while being clear. There are a lot of Jaysons( minus the "y") and Browns (on past rosters of this team even) but Tatum and Jaylen are uncommon. Since this is a baseball forum it works for Pedro too. How many posters ever referred to him as solely martinez?
 

bradmahn

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I agree, I think vast majority of NBA fans would pick Simmons.

I would too, though the margin for him over both Ingram (my second choice) and Brown (just behind Ingram) has shrunk considerably over the last three months.
I think the majority take Simmons, too. Ingram's height and age are what give him a slightly higher upside than Jaylen but, shit, Jaylen's playoffs performances are going to change people's minds here. Real quick.

Height, age, performance in the playoffs. Those three things also push Taytum over Mitchell for me.

Edited to say I know Mitchell performed in the playoffs. If he had done that while Taytum struggled, that would change things. But Taytum has, too, and I think he has the higher upside at a more premium position.
 
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BigSoxFan

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Jay Tay all day. And it isn't even close. I was as right about Tatum as I was wrong about Brown. (I lucked out by avoiding the game thread, but I made snide remarks in Brown's post-draft thread and prior to the draft said that I was fine with Brown if they were trading down into the 6-9 range.)
Yeah, there aren’t many arguments I’d accept of Mitchell over Tatum.

Tatum is younger and probably has the higher ceiling. Right now Tatum looks skinny on the court with everyone else. When he adds muscle to that frame and can sustain a lot more contact, he is going to dominate on offense.