Jayson Tatum Needs His Own Thread

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
I saw "V&N" used on the Hanley thread, what does it mean?

I'm guessing venom and narcissism but would appreciate clarity. Thanks
Views and News, aka the dreaded politics thread.

I didn't think criticizing Silver's assessment of Celtics players would be out of bounds on this forum, but his name does seem to bring up other topics that are indeed better geared for V&N.

EDIT: Major rephrasing.
 
Last edited:

Marbleheader

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2004
11,726
Views and News, aka the dreaded politics thread.

I didn't think criticizing Silver's assessment of Celtics players would be out of bounds on this forum, but whatever.
No, that's fine, but once someone takes it to the political realm things deteriorate quickly.
 

The Needler

New Member
Dec 7, 2016
1,803
I saw "V&N" used on the Hanley thread, what does it mean?
I'm guessing venom and narcissism but would appreciate clarity. Thanks


Love Tatum for all the reasons stated above. He may just turn out to be the greatest Duke player of all time.

Three things Tatum could focus on this summer:
2. Just keep refining his 3-pt stroke. SSS- but it went a little astray in playoffs (32.4%).
As some of us noted much earlier in the season, he's not going to shoot 45% from three, especially when he is taking a higher percentage off the dribble, as he will. In the regular season, 92% of his threes were unassisted (catch and shoot). In the playoffs, it was 50% off the dribble.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,840
With Kyrie and Hayward on the floor with him though, he's still going to have ample catch and shoot opportunities.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
Sure, back to Tatum. I'm pleasantly surprised at how much talking about his future eases the pain of last night.
With Kyrie and Hayward on the floor with him though, he's still going to have ample catch and shoot opportunities.
I'm also moving back into the "that was gravy" mindset faster than I expected.

Tatum is both on a better arc than we were led to expect, and advancing along it at an amazing rate.

And there is every reason to believe that he and his young compatriot in Brown, who also is advancing at a crazy rate, are going to put in the work to develop further this off-season.

I think the emphasis on Brown's cerebral nature has actually obscured the extent to which Tatum may possess many of the same qualities. Knowing that Haywood played for Brad in college, it feels like Danny's putting together a basketball academy, and I think Tatum has the makeup to thrive here.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
As some of us noted much earlier in the season, he's not going to shoot 45% from three, especially when he is taking a higher percentage off the dribble, as he will. In the regular season, 92% of his threes were unassisted (catch and shoot). In the playoffs, it was 50% off the dribble.
Oh he’s going to shoot them that well, no fears. As a 20 year old on a playoff team with limited scoring options his distance shooting suffered under the constant run of double teams.

But he’s going to get stronger and Boston’s offensive options aren’t going to be that limited again. It’s easy to run two and even three defenders at Jayson Tatum when you’re only worried about the streaky Rozier or Brown hurting you. But Irving and Hayward? Your days of being able to give Tatum the LeBron treatment are over.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
Oh he’s going to shoot them that well, no fears. As a 20 year old on a playoff team with limited scoring options his distance shooting suffered under the constant run of double teams.

But he’s going to get stronger and Boston’s offensive options aren’t going to be that limited again. It’s easy to run two and even three defenders at Jayson Tatum when you’re only worried about the streaky Rozier or Brown hurting you. But Irving and Hayward? Your days of being able to give Tatum the LeBron treatment are over.
It's amazing to think that a lot of his assignments could potentially get easier next year, in addition to his own improvement.

This was quite a season.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
What would people’s offseason program look like for Tatum?
Two things:

1. Lift weights.

2. Replicate whatever 3-point shooting work he did last summer.

Some good ideas here on the finer points, but that 3-point shot opens up everything else for him by forcing opponents not to guard him with big men. If one summer of work turned him from a good (but not stellar) college shooter into the catch-and-shoot assassin from NBA range we saw this season, a repeat performance should get him to the point where he can hit those off the dribble, or off the pass when he’s less than wide-open.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,700
Saint Paul, MN
I think he had too many missed opportunities for catch and shoot threes. If he isn't hesitant in those situations, it will lead to much harder closeouts which will only make his drives that much easier.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
I think he had too many missed opportunities for catch and shoot threes. If he isn't hesitant in those situations, it will lead to much harder closeouts which will only make his drives that much easier.
Good call. That's low-key one of the weakest points in his game: hesitating on open catch-and-shoots.

If it drives us crazy, I imagine Hanlen feels it 10x.
 

Montana Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 18, 2000
8,880
Twin Bridges, Mt.
No, that's fine, but once someone takes it to the political realm things deteriorate quickly.
Can I at least point out that in losing, Tatum won the popular vote, while Lebron won the electoral college?

I hope he doesn't hit a sophomore slump. After the strides he made and all he has accomplished this season, expectations are going to be so high for him. Love the kid and hope like hell that he turns into the top 5 player many are projecting him to be.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
The 2016 election cost him massive credibility also.
I don't want to sidetrack too far, but this is just weird. I believe he gave Hillary roughly 70% chance to win, not the 90% to 95% chance other sites did. Expecting anyone to call the winner accurately every time misunderstands probability.

Back to Tatum. He looks like the sort who can add any number of things to his game as he learns that they are necessary. Given that he's going to be on a team loaded with ofense next year, I think he should work on cutting and facilitating, among other things.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I’d like to see Tatum get better at passing. I’m surprised no one has mentioned (at least not that I’ve seen) that he had 4 TOs last night, and at least two were on bad passes (one to Brown on a fast break; one to Horford on the low post). Being out of town, I only saw a few regular season games, but I see see most of the playoff games, and I dont recall a lot of great passing from JT, other than the beautiful pass off the dribble to Baynes cutting thru the Lane.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,840
His assists/36 went up 50% in the playoffs and from assisting on 8.3% of teammates baskets in regular season, to over 13% in playoffs.

I think it'll come...
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
His assists/36 went up 50% in the playoffs and from assisting on 8.3% of teammates baskets in regular season, to over 13% in playoffs.

I think it'll come...
Agree. He's not a natural passer, but he started to make more reads as the season and the playoffs went on. I think he has potential as a Hayward-level playmaker and distributor, which would be a massive win with his scoring ability.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,088
His assists/36 went up 50% in the playoffs and from assisting on 8.3% of teammates baskets in regular season, to over 13% in playoffs.

I think it'll come...
Especially once he has better teammates to pass to.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
I’d like to see Tatum get better at passing. I’m surprised no one has mentioned (at least not that I’ve seen) that he had 4 TOs last night, and at least two were on bad passes (one to Brown on a fast break; one to Horford on the low post). Being out of town, I only saw a few regular season games, but I see see most of the playoff games, and I dont recall a lot of great passing from JT, other than the beautiful pass off the dribble to Baynes cutting thru the Lane.
1. I've mentined it twice in this thread.
2. Tatum's passing has improved markedly in the playoffs (and late in the regular season).

No reason to think this won't be a skill he addes to his game.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,840
I was referring to his 4 turnovers. THat's what I don't recall having seen anyone mention.
Yeah, the 20 year old had 4 turnovers. He averaged around 2 a game this year. We all hope he improves there, like everywhere else.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
4,948
Two things:

1. Lift weights.

2. Replicate whatever 3-point shooting work he did last summer.

Some good ideas here on the finer points, but that 3-point shot opens up everything else for him by forcing opponents not to guard him with big men. If one summer of work turned him from a good (but not stellar) college shooter into the catch-and-shoot assassin from NBA range we saw this season, a repeat performance should get him to the point where he can hit those off the dribble, or off the pass when he’s less than wide-open.
Also ball security driving to the hoop. Too many players ripped the ball out of his hands, idk if that was a function of a poor handle or just bad decision making driving into too much traffic.

Maybe take up off season rock climbing. Build up some hand/finger strength.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
I was referring to his 4 turnovers. THat's what I don't recall having seen anyone mention.
I think any 20 year old playing starter minutes int he NBA playoffs will have his share of bad passes, but I think a lot of Tatum' turnovers results from getting stripped on drives, a definite weakness in his game that hopefully he can fix with added strength.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,840
Per b-ref, in the postseason, 14 of his TOs were considered a bad pass, 16 were “lost ball” and 11 as “other”.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
That "control of the ball" stuff will get better as he gets stronger. It happens to Brown as well, although not as much. Some overall upper body strength will help substantially. He doesn't need to come into camp looking like Ojeleye, but a bit more like Brown would help.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
That "control of the ball" stuff will get better as he gets stronger. It happens to Brown as well, although not as much. Some overall upper body strength will help substantially. He doesn't need to come into camp looking like Ojeleye, but a bit more like Brown would help.
I think it's a step beyond getting stronger, and I think it's going to be fine--awesome even.

To my own untutored basketball eye, I thought his biggest problems on strips going to the hoop was holding the ball too far away from his body. I think he was doing this because he wasn't getting calls, so instead of protecting the ball and taking the foul which he wasn't going to get, he held the basketball away from his body to create contact and then some space for the post-contact shot to at least have a shot at points (no pun intended).

To the extent that was the case, if he bulks up a bit (read: please be a lot! Follow Jaylen...) and pulls the ball in, he should be able to correct this without too much adjustment to his fundamentals. And maybe start getting some real three point plays.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
I think it's a step beyond getting stronger, and I think it's going to be fine--awesome even.

To my own untutored basketball eye, I thought his biggest problems on strips going to the hoop was holding the ball too far away from his body. I think he was doing this because he wasn't getting calls, so instead of protecting the ball and taking the foul which he wasn't going to get, he held the basketball away from his body to create contact and then some space for the post-contact shot to at least have a shot at points (no pun intended).

To the extent that was the case, if he bulks up a bit (read: please be a lot! Follow Jaylen...) and pulls the ball in, he should be able to correct this without too much adjustment to his fundamentals. And maybe start getting some real three point plays.
You could be onto something there. He went from hardly complaining all year (a wise approach for a rookie IMO) to serious complaints in the playoffs. He wants those calls. I always wonder about when the switch flips and a kid like that will start getting the star calls. And who knows how much of that is driven by the player's embellishment or a strategy to make the calls more visible and how much is just getting recognition from the refs as a star.

Overall, I think that there's some technique stuff that's coachable (and can be practiced) and some plain old veteran savvy that he needs on those drives. All of that will come with time, and frankly, we're already complaining about a smudge on the frame that holds the Mona Lisa.

I maintain that overall upper body strength will help a lot. It's not just hand strength or bicep strength. He needs to develop everything between the waist and the neck. That too will come. There are plenty of good programs to add functional strength without too much unnecessary hypertrophy.
 

JakeRae

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,125
New York, NY
In no order, the things I want to most see him add are strength, a quicker/more confident release, and a step back move. His perimeter move to create space right now is a lateral shimmy that isn't very effective at creating space for his shot. He can clearly shoot off the dribble, as evidenced by his mid-range game, but that game is based on a drive and pull up move that doesn't work from 3 since it takes him inside the arc. With a decent step back move he'll be able to create space for clean looks for himself off the dribble too. He'll also be able to reduce the degree to which he relies on his mid-range shot as he forces defenses to commit earlier. Finally, it will open up the lane more for him since he'll be able to clear defenders earlier when he drives.
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,518
Maine
I always wonder about when the switch flips and a kid like that will start getting the star calls.
I always figured it was when the Press (TNT, SI,ESPN) start making a big deal about him. When he has the camera on his warm up shots during the pregame "Tonight the Celtics and their outstanding 2nd year Forward Jayson Tatum take on the Pelicans and.....". Once that happens Refs start "leaning" his way.
It Will be fascinating to watch and see if we can discern the Game/month/Season when that switch flips. Maybe we already saw it with Game 7.

My only concern is ending up in Smart-land. Where you complain, but get labeled a serial complainer and get tuned out. I cant imagine his late post season "bitchin" has put him in that territory. But if he continued it come the first of next season I could see it as a slight concern.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
I would think that after that Houston game we'd give Smart a lifetime pass on the complaining thing (at least until 2020 when he's playing for Dallas).
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,518
Maine
Oh I dont care. And I assume that most fans of the Celtics dont care.

My point is that Refs care as he seems to get a Rookies share of no calls despite being a Vet. Dont get me wrong he also gets away with a few but IMHO not as many as he should.

Regardless Tatum should not be looking to get "Smart level" ref'ing in the next year or so, but rather Star level calls.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,678
I think that most of the no calls he gets on offense are because of his style of play, i.e. he's a bull in a china shop on the offensive end of the ball. On D he draws a lot of phantom calls and gets away with a lot of contact, which is half of what drove Harden over the wall.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
I think that most of the no calls he gets on offense are because of his style of play, i.e. he's a bull in a china shop on the offensive end of the ball. On D he draws a lot of phantom calls and gets away with a lot of contact, which is half of what drove Harden over the wall.
Wow, a whole lot of pronouns there ....
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,152
San Francisco
I think that most of the no calls he gets on offense are because of his style of play, i.e. he's a bull in a china shop on the offensive end of the ball. On D he draws a lot of phantom calls and gets away with a lot of contact, which is half of what drove Harden over the wall.
I thought this was about Tatum until the end.

Tatum needs to find another finishing move other than the scoop. Its great with his length but he gets it blocked a lot. Finishing through contact ajd drawing contact intelligently would be points of emphasis if I were him.
 

tmorgan

New Member
Aug 27, 2005
281
Can he spend a couple weeks with Pierce in a camp on drawing fouls? Everybody gives a ton of Pierce comps on him already and Pierce was in the top 10 drawing fouls from his third year in the league and it always seemed like selling the contact was his effective strategy. I don't think it's a great look or effective for Tatum to be arguing with the refs like he was against CLE.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
Can he spend a couple weeks with Pierce in a camp on drawing fouls? Everybody gives a ton of Pierce comps on him already and Pierce was in the top 10 drawing fouls from his third year in the league and it always seemed like selling the contact was his effective strategy. I don't think it's a great look or effective for Tatum to be arguing with the refs like he was against CLE.
Pierce did it early in his career, too, though he was overshadowed by Antoine Walker on that score. Later on, Pierce developed a little routine with Mike Gorman. Before every game, he'd give Gorman a hug, and Gorman would tell him the names of the officials.

I'm not worried about Tatum's complaining...yet, and he is already one of the better forwards in the league at getting to the line. (Where he can really stand to improve is in finishing through contact.)

Here's an interesting comparison between Tatum and Brown based on the stats at Cleaning the Glass (which exclude garbage time minutes, so the numbers may not line up exactly with NBA stats).

Brown was fouled on 13.6% of his shot attempts, while Tatum was fouled on 12.7%. Falk has Brown classified as a wing and Tatum as a forward. Among wings, Brown's 13.6% puts him on the 89th percentile (that is, he draws more fould per shot than 89% of wings). Among forwards, Tatum's 12.7% puts him at the 90th percentile. So they were both elite at this skill, with Brown very slightly ahead of Tatum.

Tatum is a better free throw shooter than Brown. Tatum shot 83% from the line (69th percentile among forwards), while Brown shot 64.5% (7th percentile among wings, a true weakness in his game).

With all of that said, Cleaning the Glass also tracks "And 1 percentage", the percentage of shooting fouls drawn in which the player hits the free throw. Here, Brown is way ahead of Tatum. Brown converted an "And 1" on 25% of his shooting fouls (62nd percentile among wings), while Tatum only converted on 17.1% (a low 22nd percentile among forwards). Even Semi Ojeleye did better at this particular skill 25.0%, for 56th percentile among forwards.

To make an and 1, you need to hit the shot and the free throw, so Brown's success here (compared with Tatum) is most likely about his ability to finish through contact.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
Pierce did it early in his career, too, though he was overshadowed by Antoine Walker on that score. Later on, Pierce developed a little routine with Mike Gorman. Before every game, he'd give Gorman a hug, and Gorman would tell him the names of the officials.

I'm not worried about Tatum's complaining...yet, and he is already one of the better forwards in the league at getting to the line. (Where he can really stand to improve is in finishing through contact.)

Here's an interesting comparison between Tatum and Brown based on the stats at Cleaning the Glass (which exclude garbage time minutes, so the numbers may not line up exactly with NBA stats).

Brown was fouled on 13.6% of his shot attempts, while Tatum was fouled on 12.7%. Falk has Brown classified as a wing and Tatum as a forward. Among wings, Brown's 13.6% puts him on the 89th percentile (that is, he draws more fould per shot than 89% of wings). Among forwards, Tatum's 12.7% puts him at the 90th percentile. So they were both elite at this skill, with Brown very slightly ahead of Tatum.

Tatum is a better free throw shooter than Brown. Tatum shot 83% from the line (69th percentile among forwards), while Brown shot 64.5% (7th percentile among wings, a true weakness in his game).

With all of that said, Cleaning the Glass also tracks "And 1 percentage", the percentage of shooting fouls drawn in which the player hits the free throw. Here, Brown is way ahead of Tatum. Brown converted an "And 1" on 25% of his shooting fouls (62nd percentile among wings), while Tatum only converted on 17.1% (a low 22nd percentile among forwards). Even Semi Ojeleye did better at this particular skill 25.0%, for 56th percentile among forwards.

To make an and 1, you need to hit the shot and the free throw, so Brown's success here (compared with Tatum) is most likely about his ability to finish through contact.
That's a fantastic post, thanks. It's consistent with the eyeballs test, and it's a good sign for Tatum. He might add 2PPG just from finishing better through contact, nevermind when the scarlet R rookie letter is removed.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Brown has at least 20 pounds on Tatum (225 vs 205 listed, and Brown likely weighs more than that). Tatum is the better player of the two, but probably won’t ever finish through contact as well as the larger Brown.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
Brown has at least 20 pounds on Tatum (225 vs 205 listed, and Brown likely weighs more than that). Tatum is the better player of the two, but probably won’t ever finish through contact as well as the larger Brown.
No doubt, but he will get stronger than he is now.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
No doubt, but he will get stronger than he is now.
Exactly--95% of NBA players will look bad when compared in explosiveness or strength to Jaylen. Doesn't mean Tatum can't get a ton better at finishing through contact relative to what he does now.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
Brown has at least 20 pounds on Tatum (225 vs 205 listed, and Brown likely weighs more than that). Tatum is the better player of the two, but probably won’t ever finish through contact as well as the larger Brown.
I think Tatum will get to Brown's current level, though, and he may match Brown in "and 1 %" because he's more likely to hit the free throw.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Pierce did it early in his career, too, though he was overshadowed by Antoine Walker on that score. Later on, Pierce developed a little routine with Mike Gorman. Before every game, he'd give Gorman a hug, and Gorman would tell him the names of the officials.

I'm not worried about Tatum's complaining...yet, and he is already one of the better forwards in the league at getting to the line. (Where he can really stand to improve is in finishing through contact.)

Here's an interesting comparison between Tatum and Brown based on the stats at Cleaning the Glass (which exclude garbage time minutes, so the numbers may not line up exactly with NBA stats).

Brown was fouled on 13.6% of his shot attempts, while Tatum was fouled on 12.7%. Falk has Brown classified as a wing and Tatum as a forward. Among wings, Brown's 13.6% puts him on the 89th percentile (that is, he draws more fould per shot than 89% of wings). Among forwards, Tatum's 12.7% puts him at the 90th percentile. So they were both elite at this skill, with Brown very slightly ahead of Tatum.

Tatum is a better free throw shooter than Brown. Tatum shot 83% from the line (69th percentile among forwards), while Brown shot 64.5% (7th percentile among wings, a true weakness in his game).

With all of that said, Cleaning the Glass also tracks "And 1 percentage", the percentage of shooting fouls drawn in which the player hits the free throw. Here, Brown is way ahead of Tatum. Brown converted an "And 1" on 25% of his shooting fouls (62nd percentile among wings), while Tatum only converted on 17.1% (a low 22nd percentile among forwards). Even Semi Ojeleye did better at this particular skill 25.0%, for 56th percentile among forwards.

To make an and 1, you need to hit the shot and the free throw, so Brown's success here (compared with Tatum) is most likely about his ability to finish through contact.
I’ll ditto the “great post” and add that my hope/expectation is that Jaylen will end up shooting about 10,000 free throws this off-season and as a result will see his FT % go up to the mid to upper 70s next year.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,289
I’ll ditto the “great post” and add that my hope/expectation is that Jaylen will end up shooting about 10,000 free throws this off-season and as a result will see his FT % go up to the mid to upper 70s next year.
With such a clear difference in form between his makes and misses, developing that muscle memory should be a big help. He came into the league with a similar issue with his long-range form—different landing spots and so on. He came back from last summer as a damn good shooter.

Right now, you can freeze his free throws at the moment of release and know whether or not it's going in. Finding and maintaining that good form, where the shot at least looks the same every time, probably gets him up into the 70s. Sort of like a pitcher needing to find his arm slot.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
With such a clear difference in form between his makes and misses, developing that muscle memory should be a big help. He came into the league with a similar issue with his long-range form—different landing spots and so on. He came back from last summer as a damn good shooter.

Right now, you can freeze his free throws at the moment of release and know whether or not it's going in. Finding and maintaining that good form, where the shot at least looks the same every time, probably gets him up into the 70s. Sort of like a pitcher needing to find his arm slot.
I remember watching Jaylen's videos from last summer and thinking: "man, that dude has a LOT of stuff he needs to work on simultaneously!" Lifting, handle, defense, shooting--every piece was at a rudimentary level and in need of tons of reps. This summer should yield really good improvement, since he finally has fewer moving parts, and can just work on FTs and dribbling more exclusively.
 

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
34,437
Haiku
With all of that said, Cleaning the Glass also tracks "And 1 percentage", the percentage of shooting fouls drawn in which the player hits the free throw. Here, Brown is way ahead of Tatum. Brown converted an "And 1" on 25% of his shooting fouls (62nd percentile among wings), while Tatum only converted on 17.1% (a low 22nd percentile among forwards). Even Semi Ojeleye did better at this particular skill 25.0%, for 56th percentile among forwards.

To make an and 1, you need to hit the shot and the free throw, so Brown's success here (compared with Tatum) is most likely about his ability to finish through contact.
Jaylen actively seeks the and-1: he often jumps early, hopes and waits for the foul, and then releases the ball when he's already on the way down. Tatum rarely does this -- if he's not trying to dunk the ball, Tatum's jumps are horizontal, hoping to get into a clearing where he can scoop the ball from below. Those two varieties of layup make for different kinds of fouls: if Tatum gets fouled, he is usually both slight enough (for now) or low enough (forever -- that's the nature of a scoop shot) that he cannot absorb the contact and still make the shot. Jaylen actively looks for the contact because his bulk and his jumping ability, if not his length, give him the tools to finish after contact.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,840
Just some numbers:

They had pretty close to the same number of shots taken (Tatum 835, Brown 803)

Tatum had 20 "and 1's" this season, Brown had 30.
Tatum drew 117 shooting fouls, Brown 118.
Tatum had 60 shots blocked, Brown had 52.

So, if I'm doing this right, Tatum 197 shots with someone fouling or blocking him, Brown 200.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
Those are total year stats we're using here now, though.

Early in the season, we were complaining Tatum couldn't buy a call. By the playoffs, wasn't he getting to the line more than any other player or something?

Year long aggregates are not going to accurately depict Tatum, at least.* I don't know as much about Brown's progression off-hand.

*Which is awesome as the vector points up.