JBJ: Elite Defender With Some Pop

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
For a start, let’s not see him bat against lefties.
Don't forget that AB has been pretty awful against lefties too--not quite as epically inert as JBJ, but real bad (.147/.256/.235, good for a 36 wRC+ split). And since JBJ, of the two, actually has a better past record vs. LHP, it might make sense to divvy the starts between them to give them both an opportunity to figure something out. Until that happens, probably a good idea to avoid putting both of them in the lineup vs. a LH starter.
 

normstalls

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I wasn't able to watch the game last night - did JBJ come in the ninth inning as a defensive replacement? I sure hope so, that's a perfect spot for him to be used.


edit - Thanks all for insight. I can see both sides to it and dont want to derail thread with further debating that here.
 
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Bergs

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I wasn't able to watch the game last night - did JBJ come in the ninth inning as a defensive replacement? I sure hope so, that's a perfect spot for him to be used.
No, and there was a bit of kvetching in the game thread about it. That said, it was a 1-run game, and JDM was due up in the 10th if it came to that.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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I wasn't able to watch the game last night - did JBJ come in the ninth inning as a defensive replacement? I sure hope so, that's a perfect spot for him to be used.
Well .. he would have replaced J.D. - who was due to bat in the next (hypothetical) inning. With it being a one run game, Kimbrel looking shaky the night before, a bunch of Yankee mashers due up, and J.D. patrolling a right field the size of a tennis court maybe Cora thought the marginal defensive gain wasn't worth the sacrifice ?
 

dhappy42

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No, and there was a bit of kvetching in the game thread about it. That said, it was a 1-run game, and JDM was due up in the 10th if it came to that.
As one of the game thread kvetchers, today, I can see the reasoning for leaving JD in. On the other hand, I think you play for the win in that situation, especially away, rather than worrying about “what if they tie it up?” That’s loser-think.

The bigger mistake, IMHO, was not putting Lin (or even Holt) in as a defensive replacement for Nunez at 2B.
 

mfried

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Defensive replacements in that kind of situation: Lin to 2nd, Nunez to 3rd, JBJ to center, Mookie to right. The particulars of yesterday’s game were not an obvious situation for those moves.
 

geoduck no quahog

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It's becoming clear to me that the best (current) lineup needs Moreland at 1B, Ramirez at DH and Martinez in the outfield...Moreland for his defensive skills handling the inconsistent infield throws (plus whatever batting can be got) with Bradley as a defensive replacement. This is why I'm thinking this:
  • Defense equation: Bradley (CF) + Moreland (1B) > Bradley (CF) + Ramirez (1B) > Martinez (LF/RF) + Moreland (1B). I know it's close, but Moreland at 1B and more chances seals it for me.
  • Offense equation: Martinez + Moreland + Ramirez >> Martinez + Bradley + Ramirez >> Martinez + Bradley + Moreland
Nothing is forever. Devers may cut down his throwing errors, Bradley may go into one of his "I'm not lost at the plate" streaks, Ramirez is already improving at 1B. Clearly the best defensive outfield involves the 3 B's but you can't sit Martinez...meaning Ramirez plays 1B, so the choice then becomes at LHH Moreland in the lineup vs a LHH Bradley in the lineup because if they both play you're sitting either the RHH Martinez or Ramirez.

Of course different people will rest on different days of the week, but if the playoffs started tomorrow - would the best lineup include Bradley? (In other words - is +++defense in CF worth it)
 

FanSinceTed

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May 11, 2018
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JBJ actually has made what could have been a great adjustment this year. He dropped his hands. And he removed the annoying check swing just before the pitcher would deliver. Two very good things for him to do; because he couldn't get to the ball down and away and anything above his belt +94 smoked him. He did, however, miss on the most important factor: his hands remain vertically stacked. Almost completely through the stroke. This causes tons of rollover ( and thus he probably hits lots of grounders to second ? ) and no consistency of plane angle coming through the zone. Easily correctable. Virtually all hitters lay their hands ( and thus the bat angle ) back to a 45 degree angle, either before the pitch or as the pitch is coming in. He does not. It is the killer for him. Benny's hands remain too high and too much bat waving; Devers too much droop of the bat and waving as well. If all three of those guys would get their hands down, lay the hands back, and quiet down at the plate - they would be awesome. A couple of pretty good Sox hitters hit with their hands at or below their letters: Ortiz, Boggs, Rice and Williams. Decent hitters : ) Even Yaz dropped his later in his career. Someone got to JBJ over the winter about dropping them ... but no one has gotten to him about laying them back to the 45 and exploding through the zone with the slight 5 to 7 degree upswing. Am a long time reader, first time poster, former college baseball coach who has thrown more BP than virtually anyone has seen pitches. Easy to spot the hitters - and their mistakes. JBJ could still be a great hitter.
 

Al Zarilla

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Informative first post. I don’t know what you mean by his hands remain stacked. Do you mean his hands don’t roll over, or pronate through the swing? If, so, seems he would produce no power whatsoever, and his coaches should certainly see this problem.
 

FanSinceTed

Charley Lau Jr.
May 11, 2018
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Informative first post. I don’t know what you mean by his hands remain stacked. Do you mean his hands don’t roll over, or pronate through the swing? If, so, seems he would produce no power whatsoever, and his coaches should certainly see this problem.
Frustration here for many years has always been " with all of the visual imagery and all of the technology, why do the experts not see what so many of us 'amateurs' can see ? " And this is a great case of it. So sad to see someone repeat the same mistakes, over and over. Watch really closely, to every hitter ... when the hands inevitably " go back to go forward " does the bat head stay vertically straight up and down, or even worse, inverted ( Kevin Millar disease ) or does the bat and hands tilt backwards slightly to allow the bat angle to ' flatten out ' ( but not really totally flat ) just before moving forward. ( see: Pujols ). Judge and Stanton were fun to watch this week ... Remy was toying around with Stanton - lower hands than most, bat head on a quality swing plane..... he won't finish at .227 : ) Judge - still inverted, but he has softened that invert and can now catch up on the high stuff he couldn't get to last year. Now he is dangerous. All in the hands and how they present just prior to the pitch arriving. JBJ stays tight and tough with his hands and the bat upright until the last split second - then it all comes unfolding and flopping at once. No consistency through the zone. A lot of swings and misses, foul balls that should have been hit ( I always smile at that quote .... and Cora just used it ). Let's see if there are any changes coming ....
 

AB in DC

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It's becoming clear to me that the best (current) lineup needs Moreland at 1B, Ramirez at DH and Martinez in the outfield...
It seems like Cora now agrees -- today is now the third straight game with this configuration. Before Wednesday, JBJ only sat out the starting lineup once a week.
 

Dropo's moose

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Frustration here for many years has always been " with all of the visual imagery and all of the technology, why do the experts not see what so many of us 'amateurs' can see ? " And this is a great case of it. So sad to see someone repeat the same mistakes, over and over. Watch really closely, to every hitter ... when the hands inevitably " go back to go forward " does the bat head stay vertically straight up and down, or even worse, inverted ( Kevin Millar disease ) or does the bat and hands tilt backwards slightly to allow the bat angle to ' flatten out ' ( but not really totally flat ) just before moving forward. ( see: Pujols ). Judge and Stanton were fun to watch this week ... Remy was toying around with Stanton - lower hands than most, bat head on a quality swing plane..... he won't finish at .227 : ) Judge - still inverted, but he has softened that invert and can now catch up on the high stuff he couldn't get to last year. Now he is dangerous. All in the hands and how they present just prior to the pitch arriving. JBJ stays tight and tough with his hands and the bat upright until the last split second - then it all comes unfolding and flopping at once. No consistency through the zone. A lot of swings and misses, foul balls that should have been hit ( I always smile at that quote .... and Cora just used it ). Let's see if there are any changes coming ....

You would have to think the current hitting coach knows what the problem is? At what point do you fault the Player for not taking advice or perhaps his swing is all he knows and at what point does the organization say lets find somebody else?

Benni perhaps more frustrating. His swing looked at times "the second coming of Don Mattingly" all of a sudden he can't buy a swing. Frustrating as a fan
 

Harry Hooper

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Benintendi just looks beat right now at the plate, getting the bat off his shoulder with a labored swing. I am guessing it's more mental than physical.
 

Al Zarilla

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You would have to think the current hitting coach knows what the problem is? At what point do you fault the Player for not taking advice or perhaps his swing is all he knows and at what point does the organization say lets find somebody else?

Benni perhaps more frustrating. His swing looked at times "the second coming of Don Mattingly" all of a sudden he can't buy a swing. Frustrating as a fan
I like me a Chipper Jones comp., or JD Drew.



Beni has the super picturesque swing, so he has to develop into a top 100 - 200 all time hitter, right? Right.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Ben10 hasn't even been that bad. He's a good week away from being above average.
He's had a month of play with an OPS over .800 and the past week it's been over .900
What the hell do SoSH'ers want out of players here???

I personally don't think Benintendi will ever be a consistent All Star... but it also wouldn't surprise me if he did turn into one. He's on the borderline right now- he hit 20 HR's last season, if he can replicate that with a little extra (25?) and be somewhat consistent against lefties, he's exactly that: an All Star, and that's hardly inconceivable.

But for the time being, he's more than adequate out there and he's getting squashed as being a disappointment through this thread....
 

chawson

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He's had a month of play with an OPS over .800 and the past week it's been over .900
What the hell do SoSH'ers want out of players here???

I personally don't think Benintendi will ever be a consistent All Star... but it also wouldn't surprise me if he did turn into one. He's on the borderline right now- he hit 20 HR's last season, if he can replicate that with a little extra (25?) and be somewhat consistent against lefties, he's exactly that: an All Star, and that's hardly inconceivable.

But for the time being, he's more than adequate out there and he's getting squashed as being a disappointment through this thread....
Benintendi's hit .261/.338/.392 away from Yankee Stadium since the beginning of last year.

Of course, games in Yankee Stadium very much count. But appeals to Beni's power should probably account for the fact that he's a hitter suited to that kind of ballpark. Outside of New York, he's been a .730 OPS guy—about as productive with the bat as Melky Cabrera or Nori Aoki.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Benintendi's hit .261/.338/.392 away from Yankee Stadium since the beginning of last year.

Of course, games in Yankee Stadium very much count. But appeals to Beni's power should probably account for the fact that he's a hitter suited to that kind of ballpark. Outside of New York, he's been a .730 OPS guy—about as productive with the bat as Melky Cabrera or Nori Aoki.
It's his 2nd full season.
 

Marco

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Apr 18, 2018
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Beni has been a solid average mlb starter so far imo. which is pretty good for a 21-23yr old....but I don't think it was crazy to expect more.
 

lapa

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Frustration here for many years has always been " with all of the visual imagery and all of the technology, why do the experts not see what so many of us 'amateurs' can see ? " And this is a great case of it. So sad to see someone repeat the same mistakes, over and over. Watch really closely, to every hitter ... when the hands inevitably " go back to go forward " does the bat head stay vertically straight up and down, or even worse, inverted ( Kevin Millar disease ) or does the bat and hands tilt backwards slightly to allow the bat angle to ' flatten out ' ( but not really totally flat ) just before moving forward. ( see: Pujols ). Judge and Stanton were fun to watch this week ... Remy was toying around with Stanton - lower hands than most, bat head on a quality swing plane..... he won't finish at .227 : ) Judge - still inverted, but he has softened that invert and can now catch up on the high stuff he couldn't get to last year. Now he is dangerous. All in the hands and how they present just prior to the pitch arriving. JBJ stays tight and tough with his hands and the bat upright until the last split second - then it all comes unfolding and flopping at once. No consistency through the zone. A lot of swings and misses, foul balls that should have been hit ( I always smile at that quote .... and Cora just used it ). Let's see if there are any changes coming ....

this stuff sounds great, and I dont doubt your credentials but its hard to really grasp without pictures or photos. Like "inverted", what is inverted and where? Sorry this is probably obvious to most of you but I'm struggling to visualise exactly what you mean (ie I need to see it drawn or diagrammed)
 

PaulinMyrBch

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this stuff sounds great, and I dont doubt your credentials but its hard to really grasp without pictures or photos. Like "inverted", what is inverted and where? Sorry this is probably obvious to most of you but I'm struggling to visualise exactly what you mean (ie I need to see it drawn or diagrammed)
Pretty sure he’s saying inverted is when the barrel is above the hands but the barrel end is pointed toward the pitcher and in front of the hands. Flat is laid back from vertical, so toward the backstop some.
 

soxeast

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Aug 12, 2017
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JBJ's job security should be fine but Moreland should be getting more at bats than JBJ for the time being. Pedroia's return will be good for JBJ-. - Another quality hitter which extends the lineup and means having a lousy hitter like JBJ isn't quite as bad. You don't need nine quality hitters. The Sox now would have 7 if they play JBJ.

I don't think JBJ issue is that big of deal because there are alternatives/options. And ofc his defense is prime. It's the catcher's that are the huge problem.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's his second full season. In 2016 he was called up in August and didn't have enough ABs to disqualify 2017 from being his rookie year.
He was agreeing with my main point though and he was adding it was only Benintendi's 3rd full pro season, even when you include the minors. Harsh crowd here if Ben10 is already a disappointment.
 

uk_sox_fan

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He was agreeing with my main point though and he was adding it was only Benintendi's 3rd full pro season, even when you include the minors. Harsh crowd here if Ben10 is already a disappointment.
I agree that he supported your main point and I'm the last person to say Benny's a disappointment. But he was erroneously correcting you by saying it's his 3rd full season. As you said it's his second.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I agree that he supported your main point and I'm the last person to say Benny's a disappointment. But he was erroneously correcting you by saying it's his 3rd full season. As you said it's his second.
Except he isn't. He said professional season. The minor leagues are still pro.

It would read: It's only his 2nd full season (in the majors) and only his 3rd full season as a professional.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I know this hasn't gotten much discussion this season yet, but there has been a huge drop off in offensive production across the league.

.246/.319/.407 is the MLB average this year. Last year, it was .255/.324/.426. Ben 10 is currently at .255/.344/.418 for an OPS+ of 102, which is pretty much identical with his OPS+ of 101 last year.

There are also 2 very simple ways to make Ben10 a very productive player and hitter instead of an average one. The first is moving him to CF and given JBJ's struggles, that may happen sooner than later. The other is to simply platoon him. It's already been pointed out, but Ben10's career splits vs RHP is a very sexy .289/.364/.477 slash line in 735 PA. Hopefully he learns to hit lefties but right now he's basically a Trot Nixon who can play defense. That's not a bad floor. He also may not be the best base runner, but he is a good base stealer, although that may be an organization thing.

JBJ, OTOH, didn't really have much of a L/R split until this season. He only has 33 PA vs lefties this year, tho. Of course, he hasn't hit righties at all this season either.
 

MikeM

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I know this hasn't gotten much discussion this season yet, but there has been a huge drop off in offensive production across the league.
Yeah, I noticed this last week peaking around fangraphs while I was trying to decide just how concerning a few dead spots in this lineup atm really is.

A surrounding concern of Ben10 not living up to fluffy hopes/expectations wasn't in my current takeaway. Especially as a tick above average guy making peanuts.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Trot Nixon in his prime was an excellent RF.
I don't know about excellent but the way I worded my post implies Nixon was bad which he was not. He was above average when healthy but was prone to mental gaffes. I think Ben10 will be the better defender, even if he hasn't been to date.
 

dbecks

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Alex Speier on last night's game:

"Bradley (2-3) has swung at 3 four-seam fastballs tonight, putting all in play with an exit velo of 95-100 mph. After the Baltimore series, this qualifies as a significant step forward for him."

If he somehow turns it around - or at least gets on one of his notorious hot streaks - that's obviously a good problem to have in terms of choosing a lineup. His defense so damn good you can't justify turning him into a bench player at this point. Maybe hope he gets on a hot streak & improves his trade value before July?

Regardless, he gets the start again tonight vs. Archer. Another hit or two tonight might show he's (slowly) turning it around.
 

soxeast

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I really can't tell the technique of swings. But did it look like to anyone one the day he got a couple of hits that it seemed like the bat slipped out of his hands when he made contact? It seemed like some of those hits were with one hand almost.
 

joe dokes

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Alex Speier on last night's game:

"Bradley (2-3) has swung at 3 four-seam fastballs tonight, putting all in play with an exit velo of 95-100 mph. After the Baltimore series, this qualifies as a significant step forward for him."

If he somehow turns it around - or at least gets on one of his notorious hot streaks - that's obviously a good problem to have in terms of choosing a lineup. His defense so damn good you can't justify turning him into a bench player at this point. Maybe hope he gets on a hot streak & improves his trade value before July?

Regardless, he gets the start again tonight vs. Archer. Another hit or two tonight might show he's (slowly) turning it around.
He's good enough in CF to not bench him. But your hope is that he hits enough to be trade bait?
 

dbecks

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He's good enough in CF to not bench him. But your hope is that he hits enough to be trade bait?
Before Hanley? Yes.

Now... he’s a super defensive sub and starts once every 3-4 games until injury/streaks necessitates otherwise.

But I still think he can get on one of his notorious streaks and prove me/everyone else wrong.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Last 11 games: .344/.417/.563 but a BAbip of .458.

Up to a .600 OPS for the year. It'd be nice if he could return to 2017 levels, nevermind 15/16. Here's hoping its a start of a JBJ hot streak.
 

brandonchristensen

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Obviously his BABIP will regress but he looks like he’s found his stroke. Even his outs are loud.

You could see him turn a corner around that 11 game mark and not look back. I doubt it’s for the rest of the season because it never is, but having him hit to his career norms even is a huge boost to this line up.
 

FanSinceTed

Charley Lau Jr.
May 11, 2018
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Great stuff re: JBJ. The video from AZ awhile back was tremendous. Amazing how so many talk about " front side, foot down, foot balance, etc. etc. - all good stuff - and almost no one in any of the hitting videos that are on line talk about The Most important - the angle of the hands and the resultant angle of the bat as it comes through the hitting zone. Fool's Gold for JBJ ? Maybe. He almost always hits well from May 15 - June 20. ( all the AL East teams have done their homework .... usually lots of NL and AL West teams who have not - the schedule is always heavy on the latter during this particular timeframe. ). And have any of the recent hits come vs. 94+ somewhat in and up ? I don't think so. He has his hands back up again; bat angle at beginning is back almost at a 45 ( good ! ) and then it rotates back into the upright vertical position that continues to plague him - and will forever as far as this observer is concerned. But it is nice that he apparently feels better about it all, so do his teammates one would have to imagine. He has quieted his head and his front foot is down. Those alone contribute to success. But one would have to wonder : look at Beni on his own team - who now his hands back at a 45 almost all of the time, hands a bit lower, quieter .... and raking like crazy. And then another look at Floppy Devers, high hands, drooping bat - all over the place. Sometimes looks great, next pitch is awful. Makes one wonder sometimes what players are watching during the course of a game. Best wishes to JBJ - a great competitor; but I would want to see him have 3 quality ABs during a game vs. a pitcher of significance throwing 94+ before I am sold on anything. He is capable. With leveled hands and a solid 5 degree upswing he could hit .320. Have said it for years.
 

joe dokes

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. Best wishes to JBJ - a great competitor; but I would want to see him have 3 quality ABs during a game vs. a pitcher of significance throwing 94+ before I am sold on anything. He is capable. With leveled hands and a solid 5 degree upswing he could hit .320. Have said it for years.
Thats a ridiculous standard.


Nevertheless, just a few posts up, is this:

Alex Speier on last night's game:
"Bradley (2-3) has swung at 3 four-seam fastballs tonight, putting all in play with an exit velo of 95-100 mph. After the Baltimore series, this qualifies as a significant step forward for him."
 

DJnVa

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With leveled hands and a solid 5 degree upswing he could hit .320. Have said it for years.
I need more. By doing these 2 things he can become a .320 hitter? A standard less than 50 players in history achieved over their career?
 

FanSinceTed

Charley Lau Jr.
May 11, 2018
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Lots of guys have a .320 year .... not saying a career thing. But he has running speed, power, youth, bat speed ... lots of great qualities. The list is short of who has more inherent capability on that team. And 3 quality ABs ? Every major leaguer expects that. It can even be an oh-fer. Or even a couple of solid flyballs, a pull groundout and a single through the hole. The point is to simply be comfortable and not be overwhelmed. He gets overwhelmed because his hands are cocked and loaded and straight up and down until they unravel .... much too late in the process. Even last night, prior to the double to center, 3 pitches middle/down/91 all very hittable - were all fouled off.. ( Hanley Ramirez, anyone ? ) Hands too cocked, too late getting there and a poor result. Glad he hit the fourth for a double. I know SOSH people are picky; that's fine. But watch him a bit more closely. See what you think. Picture what it could be otherwise. I threw BP to college hitters for almost two decades and played until I was 49. Seen a few hitters along the way.......... always tried to make suggestions as to what could otherwise be done.
 

joe dokes

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Lots of guys have a .320 year .... not saying a career thing. But he has running speed, power, youth, bat speed ... lots of great qualities. The list is short of who has more inherent capability on that team. And 3 quality ABs ? Every major leaguer expects that. It can even be an oh-fer. Or even a couple of solid flyballs, a pull groundout and a single through the hole. The point is to simply be comfortable and not be overwhelmed. He gets overwhelmed because his hands are cocked and loaded and straight up and down until they unravel .... much too late in the process. Even last night, prior to the double to center, 3 pitches middle/down/91 all very hittable - were all fouled off.. ( Hanley Ramirez, anyone ? ) Hands too cocked, too late getting there and a poor result. Glad he hit the fourth for a double. I know SOSH people are picky; that's fine. But watch him a bit more closely. See what you think. Picture what it could be otherwise. I threw BP to college hitters for almost two decades and played until I was 49. Seen a few hitters along the way.......... always tried to make suggestions as to what could otherwise be done.

Actually, he's not especially fast.
And as pointed out above, he did have some quality ABs against velocity recently. by most any definition, he's quite clearly turned a corner. Maybe there's a wall nearby, maybe not.