Jose Fernandez killed in boating accident

Papelbon's Poutine

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Dec 4, 2005
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There's something a little weird about all this. The original press conference said no indication of drugs or alcohol. People died. The boat was towed. I'm not sure what the police need a warrant for, since they can search with consent, and I can't imagine why the current legal owner would refuse to allow a search. Perhaps there's an insurance issue? Might the families of the friends be threatening to sue the Fernandez estate if Fernandez was boating while intoxicated?

The "odor of alcohol" sounds a bit fishy to me. This was a violent crash - a bottle could break and spill on anyone's clothing. But then again, the original report was no indication of drugs or alcohol.

The timing of post mortem test results depend mostly on the backup at the crime labs at any given time.

Lastly, it seems to be going on a bit long for a criminal investigation. The police should have been able to pull data from any ocean-facing cameras, GPS, examine the boat, interview friends, look at social media/electronic records, etc. by now. Perhaps much has already been done and the article just isn't very precisely worded.
I was going to ask about the need for a warrant but didn't know how to word it and retracted. That seemed weird to me.
 

Rovin Romine

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I was going to ask about the need for a warrant but didn't know how to word it and retracted. That seemed weird to me.
I'd have to see the warrant. Maybe it's for something other than the boat and this is just crappy reporting.

(If the warrant just for the boat, the mere fact that the boat presumptively caused the death of three men is enough to impound it as evidence, and if there's no exception for a search, a warrant should issue more or less automatically on application, insofar as it supports a search in furtherance of attempting to establish cause of death.)
 

NDame616

will bailey
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Jul 31, 2006
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Could the initial presser where they said there isn't any indication of drugs of alcohol just have been out of resprect to a local legend who JUST died in his mid 20s?
 

mauidano

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The Miami Herald's article is a little more detailed. Because of pending legal action they have not released results of the autopsies.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article110563512.html
"Fish & Wildlife investigators said they found a bar receipt for alcohol in the pocket of one of the men, who is not named. The receipt had a time and date stamp, the affidavit said." I don't think there is any doubt it was alcohol involved but someone will be suing someone for sure.
 

Rovin Romine

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Could the initial presser where they said there isn't any indication of drugs of alcohol just have been out of resprect to a local legend who JUST died in his mid 20s?
They just should have said "no foul play, ongoing investigation, don't want to speculate, obviously very sad, etc. etc." Regardless of the kindness behind the intent, LEOs making public statements that more or less directly contradict what they later write in their reports is bad practice. It's likely not a legal issue here, but in other situations it can have a profound impact.
 

mauf

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There's something a little weird about all this. The original press conference said no indication of drugs or alcohol. People died. The boat was towed. I'm not sure what the police need a warrant for, since they can search with consent, and I can't imagine why the current legal owner would refuse to allow a search. Perhaps there's an insurance issue? Might the families of the friends be threatening to sue the Fernandez estate if Fernandez was boating while intoxicated?

The "odor of alcohol" sounds a bit fishy to me. This was a violent crash - a bottle could break and spill on anyone's clothing. But then again, the original report was no indication of drugs or alcohol.

The timing of post mortem test results depend mostly on the backup at the crime labs at any given time.

Lastly, it seems to be going on a bit long for a criminal investigation. The police should have been able to pull data from any ocean-facing cameras, GPS, examine the boat, interview friends, look at social media/electronic records, etc. by now. Perhaps much has already been done and the article just isn't very precisely worded.
I wonder if we're overthinking the warrant issue -- it may be that police weren't sure who owned the boat, or didn't know who the next-of-kin was, or simply didn't want to ask a family member to consent to a search just hours after the incident.

Reading the article, I figured that the target of the criminal investigation was whoever served them alcohol. In an accident with no survivors, who else could it be? (In the hours after the accident, I suppose it could have been open-ended, but unless they're misusing the exception to prevent or delay disclosure of investigative materials, I'm not sure what else it could be at this point.)
 

kenneycb

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Rovin Romine

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I wonder if we're overthinking the warrant issue -- it may be that police weren't sure who owned the boat, or didn't know who the next-of-kin was, or simply didn't want to ask a family member to consent to a search just hours after the incident.

Reading the article, I figured that the target of the criminal investigation was whoever served them alcohol. In an accident with no survivors, who else could it be? (In the hours after the accident, I suppose it could have been open-ended, but unless they're misusing the exception to prevent or delay disclosure of investigative materials, I'm not sure what else it could be at this point.)
You're probably right on both counts. I was more focusing on the incongruity of a public "no alcohol" statement, and the warrant essentially saying, "you could smell the alcohol on the bodies."

I suppose there's also the possibility (very remote) that someone tampered with safety equipment, or another boat was "drag racing" with Hernandez's boat and thus would be an accessory of some sort, or chargeable with an independent crime.
 

canderson

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Ugh.

MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, Fla. - An autopsy report released Saturday shows that Marlins pitcher Jose Fernandez had taken cocaine and drank alcohol last month shortly before he died in a fatal boat crash.

An autopsy report for Eduardo Rivero shows that he too had taken cocaine and consumed alcohol the morning of the crash. Emilio Macias drank alcoholic beverages the day of the crash, but was not under the influence of any illegal drugs, the report said.
http://www.local10.com/sports/mlb/marlins/autopsy-report-shows-jose-fernandez-had-taken-cocaine-drank-alcohol-before-boat-crash-
 

Investor 11

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I don't think that the substances are irrelevant in terms of the public opinion on the crash.

While it's tragic regardless, there are millions of people who can relate to alcohol related tragedies and maybe even explain it away in their head.

The cocaine aspect, rightly or wrongly, may leave a much different impression with some people.
 

mauidano

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Aug 21, 2006
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Bad choices all the way around with tragic consequences. In Jose's case, an unborn child without a father. Young and bulletproof mentality.

So does this dial back the number retiring ceremony next year?
 

mt8thsw9th

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Jul 17, 2005
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A young athlete making lots of money uses cocaine.

What's with all the pearl clutching?
No kidding. The only dumb thing he did was get in a boat after dark and recklessly drive around. Handwringing over adults using drugs is just judgy and holier than thou.

It's amazing that we as a society are a-okay with casual (and binge) use of the most dangerous, and life destroying drug in alcohol, but someone snorts the powder version of a Red Bull and vodka and everyone turns into Helen Lovejoy.
 

mauidano

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No kidding. The only dumb thing he did was get in a boat after dark and recklessly drive around. Handwringing over adults using drugs is just judgy and holier than thou.

It's amazing that we as a society are a-okay with casual (and binge) use of the most dangerous, and life destroying drug in alcohol, but someone snorts the powder version of a Red Bull and vodka and everyone turns into Helen Lovejoy.
Except that he was in that boat legally drunk, under the influence of illegal drugs and "recklessly driving around". THREE lives were needlessly lost because of the "dumb things". Families adversely affected for the rest of their lives and thousands saddened. So a little "handwringing" is justified.
 

SumnerH

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No kidding. The only dumb thing he did was get in a boat after dark and recklessly drive around. Handwringing over adults using drugs is just judgy and holier than thou.

It's amazing that we as a society are a-okay with casual (and binge) use of the most dangerous, and life destroying drug in alcohol, but someone snorts the powder version of a Red Bull and vodka and everyone turns into Helen Lovejoy.
Cocaine use is about 5-10 times as deadly as alcohol use, per capita (about 36 per 10000 cocaine users will overdose in a given year, compared to about 6 deaths per 10000 alcohol users). That's actually skewed in favor of cocaine, as it's comparing just ODs from cocaine to all alcohol-related deaths (including others killed in car accidents, etc).

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/cocaine/what-scope-cocaine-use-in-united-states
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics
https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates
 

mauf

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Except that he was in that boat legally drunk, under the influence of illegal drugs and "recklessly driving around". THREE lives were needlessly lost because of the "dumb things". Families adversely affected for the rest of their lives and thousands saddened. So a little "handwringing" is justified.
I'm not endorsing mt8's comparison of cocaine to Red Bull, but the three men's use of alcohol is far more likely to have contributed to their deaths than their use of cocaine. The inevitable emphasis on cocaine because of its illegality is unfortunate, not least because it will dilute the message about BWI that should be heard loud and clear, and represents the best chance for something positive to come from this tragedy.
 

Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
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Cocaine use is about 5-10 times as deadly as alcohol use, per capita (about 36 per 10000 cocaine users will overdose in a given year, compared to about 6 deaths per 10000 alcohol users). That's actually skewed in favor of cocaine, as it's comparing just ODs from cocaine to all alcohol-related deaths (including others killed in car accidents, etc).

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/cocaine/what-scope-cocaine-use-in-united-states
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics
https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates
Assuming no purity issue - is cocaine more dangerous than amphetamine salts?

Also, does this reveal anything about the adequacy of MLBs drug testing?
 

johnmd20

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Assuming no purity issue - is cocaine more dangerous than amphetamine salts?

Also, does this reveal anything about the adequacy of MLBs drug testing?
You and I both know almost all professional athletes are taking something that is illegal, (PED or recreational) despite it being "tested" for.
 

bibajesus

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Isn't crack more dangerous than the booger sugar type? I consider them different drugs but I assume that study lumps them together.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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What do you mean by 'more dangerous'? They're the same drug in two slightly different chemical forms. The differentiation between the two is mostly legal and at least somewhat racially biased.
 

simplicio

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What do you mean by 'more dangerous'? They're the same drug in two slightly different chemical forms. The differentiation between the two is mostly legal and at least somewhat racially biased.
The DoJ says crack is more addictive. Whether that's racially biased is probably a valid question though.
 

Rovin Romine

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Does that really matter? Sure doesn't to me.

They were all impaired. The substances are irrelevant.
I think that should be the takeaway. Imagine a story where 3 guys in their 20s get drunk and coked up at a bar, get into their SUV, take it up to near maximum speed despite poor driving conditions, and slam headfirst into a telephone pole with the result that all of them are killed. I doubt many here would pick "tragedy" as the first word they'd use to describe that situation.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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My understanding is they don't know who driving the boat but the Marlins can't be feeling warm and fuzzy about their quick decision to retire Fernandez's number given that he might have killed several people while drunk and coked out.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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Yeah, sounds like some equivocating here.

He made a horrendously stupid decision and it cost him his life.
 

barbed wire Bob

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garlan5

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In regards to the original thoughts and print of JF being sober and no signs of drugs/alcohol. I wonder how much the marlins pressured the media or influenced the media's original stance on things. Since hearing about this today is the first I've heard of any smell or hint of drugs/alcohol per earlier postings. Also wasn't he said to have been close to a few local cops who worked the accident? Any chance that skewed things
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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The other two guys were both below the .08 BAC that defines DUI limit in many states. Fernandez was almost double it. Will be interesting when it comes out who was driving the boat.
 

Rovin Romine

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The other two guys were both below the .08 BAC that defines DUI limit in many states. Fernandez was almost double it. Will be interesting when it comes out who was driving the boat.
As a point of information, the "limit" is simply the level above which one is presumptively impaired. One can still be convicted of DUI variants if one blows below the legal limit but are still impaired. Legal guidelines as to impairment via other drugs varies.

Putting aside the law for a moment - actual impairment can occur at much lower BAC levels, depending on the individual and the circumstances. How much that actual impairment (i.e., the practical effect on operating a vehicle which might increase the chance of an accident) is also highly situational and hard to determine. Not the least because other factors might also contribute to an accident in any situation - exhaustion, vision impairment, unfamiliarity with the terrain or vehicle, sickness, etc.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The other two guys were both below the .08 BAC that defines DUI limit in many states. Fernandez was almost double it. Will be interesting when it comes out who was driving the boat.
Honest question - how could they ever determine who was driving? Weren't all the bodies thrown from the boat? It's not like walking up to a car crash and someone is in the driver's seat.
 

Oppo

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Isn't crack more dangerous than the booger sugar type? I consider them different drugs but I assume that study lumps them together.
Less likely to OD when snorting cocaine. Absorption is self limiting when snorting due to vasoconstriction effects.
 

SumnerH

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Less likely to OD when snorting cocaine. Absorption is self limiting when snorting due to vasoconstriction effects.
Actually, the opposite is true: crack smoking has the lowest incidence of OD.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1491289
Cocaine overdose is less associated with crack smoking than with snorting or intravenous (IV) use, whereas IV use is especially likely to result in overdose