Lance Armstrong Formally Charged with Doping by USADA

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Former cyclist Lance Armstrong’s seven Tour de France victories are in jeopardy after the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency sent him and a number of riders a letter bringing formal doping charges, reports the Washington Post.

Armstrong is also banned from competing in triathlons because of the formal charges.

The letter obtained by the Post says in part that Armstrong’s blood is “fully consistent with blood ma­nipu­la­tion including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.”
http://tracking.si.com/2012/06/13/lance-armstrong-faces-new-charges-from-usada/

I'm a fan of the guy and cycling, but there's absolutely no way that he wasn't doping during his Tour de France victories. One of the most popular and celebrity athletes in US history, what would be the result if he's actually found guilty?
 

YTF

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This storm's been brewing for some time. There have been accusations from different associations, riders from other countries and even former friends and teammates. Always wanted to believe that it wasn't true and somehow hope that he's innocent, but I'm a realist also. I have a feeling there is going to be a lot of "medical explanation" for some of the questions he's going to have to answer. Fucking shame.
 

mauidano

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No one in the HISTORY of sport has been tested more than Lance Armstrong. If they haven't found anything substantial prior to this latest charge, he's clean. Good luck US Govt.. Let's waste some MORE tax dollars chasing this down.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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If they haven't found anything substantial prior to this latest charge, he's clean.
Right, because we have tests for Blood doping and EPO.

I'm a big fan of cycling, and accept that like baseball in the 90s, most of the guys were on drugs, but he wasn't clean.

Agreed that at this point they should really have let it go. Does seem crazy to go back and remove him as Tour winner. How many years will this leave the Tour without a winner?
 

Greg29fan

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USADA will lose and lose badly. Do I think Lance was doping? Absolutely, but the tests from the TDF are all lost, destroyed, or mishandled/bungled so badly there's no chance they would hold up.
 

RG33

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I absolutely hate this guy and think he's the most arrogant, self-righteous prick going. And I have zero doubt in my mind he was a cheating scumbag. But seriously, why waste fucking time and money on this at this point? Stop busting his ball and let him run his triathalons.
 

Average Reds

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No one in the HISTORY of sport has been tested more than Lance Armstrong. If they haven't found anything substantial prior to this latest charge, he's clean. Good luck US Govt.. Let's waste some MORE tax dollars chasing this down.
USADA is not a government agency and does not use any tax dollars.

It does seem ridiculous for the USADA to charge him with doping now, and I suspect that nothing will come of it other than charges that are most likely true but ultimately cannot be proven. But Armstrong isn't being charged with a crime. He's being retroactively branded as a cheater by an agency that works with the IOC and many professional sports leagues and international sports federations.
 

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Agreed that at this point they should really have let it go. Does seem crazy to go back and remove him as Tour winner. How many years will this leave the Tour without a winner?
Consecutively, that makes 1991-2005 with winners who have serious doping allegations about them...non-consecutively I haven't done the math recently but it's more than half that have at least some question marks. Henri Pelissier's 1923 is the first one implicated directly with doping, though Garrigou's 1911 title is plagued by rumors that he or his camp poisoned favorite (and eventual runner up) Paul Duboc's bottle to gain the advantage.

EDIT: And 2006, too, obviously; I was looking at a list that already omitted Landis' title.
 

Orange Julia

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I can't help but wonder about the timing. Andy Schleck is pulling out out of TdF, a bunch of others are not riding, was someone legitimately worried that Lance might come out of retirement to ride again? And yes, they all dope, or did dope, but they were all tested and many busted, but not Lance and he's been tested more than all of them combined, so it sure looks like harassment.
 

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Consecutively, that makes 1991-2005 with winners who have serious doping allegations about them...non-consecutively I haven't done the math recently but it's more than half that have at least some question marks. Henri Pelissier's 1923 is the first one implicated directly with doping, though Garrigou's 1911 title is plagued by rumors that he or his camp poisoned favorite (and eventual runner up) Paul Duboc's bottle to gain the advantage.

EDIT: And 2006, too, obviously; I was looking at a list that already omitted Landis' title.
If you eliminate Pereiro (06 - although he did have some doping stuff, but was cleared later thanks to asthma medication) and Sastre (08) you can run it right through to 2010 thanks to Contador. Schleck is listed as the winner because they stripped Contador of the title. Total, it has to be approachinig 75% of winners, right?

edit: damn spelling.
 

smastroyin

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This is just like the steroids thing. It bothers me that even a tiny little pissant fraction of a penny of my tax money goes to funding stupid fucking dumb ass shit like this.
 

Average Reds

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This is just like the steroids thing. It bothers me that even a tiny little pissant fraction of a penny of my tax money goes to funding stupid fucking dumb ass shit like this.
I know that people are exhausted by the criminal prosecutions of Bonds, Clemens, etc., but to repeat - this is not a criminal charge and no governmental agencies are involved, so not even a tiny little pissant fraction of a penny of your taxes goes to funding stupid fucking dumb ass shit like this.

I mean, it's even dumber than you think, because this is a vendetta being brought by a non-governmental group with no accountability but with the power to ruin people's reputations. And they are doing it because they are convinced that Lance cheated despite the testing that was in place at the time and they want him nailed to the wall.

There are lots of reasons to hate this. Thinking that tax dollars are supporting it is not one of them.
 

smastroyin

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USADA's largest funding source is the US Government (Office of National Drug Control Policy).

Sorry I wasn't clear. Although, to be sure, we have also wasted tax money with a two year investigation by Federal Investigators.
 

Average Reds

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USADA's largest funding source is the US Government (Office of National Drug Control Policy).

Sorry I wasn't clear. Although, to be sure, we have also wasted tax money with a two year investigation by Federal Investigators.
I just came back to edit my two posts, but I'll reply to this instead.

USADA is a non-governmental agency, but as you pointed out, a quick check of Google tells me that it does receive funding through the grant from the Office of National Drug Policy Control. So I'm wrong here, and it's completely valid for people to complain about this being a waste of their tax dollars.
 

smastroyin

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You're not wrong, though, that a quasi-government agency with hardly any accountability can basically say what it wants when it wants and have people (not me, but I was vague) think it is the US government bringing formal charges against someone.

Also, I think Lance Armstrong is most likely a douchebag. I think trying to destroy his legacy however is indicative of the type of douchebags that most if not all professional cyclists are. I really like the sport, I like riding my bike, a lot. But I can't think of another sport where the top guys are so concerned about the other guys rather than themselves. It's like a big jealousy loop. It really comes off as guys like Hamilton just being annoyed that they got caught and another guy didn't. It's kind of pathetic, when you really think about it. Maybe other sports are like this and I just don't pay attention.
 

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A lot of monkeys (including pretty much the entire French government) have flung a lot of poo at Lance Armstrong's wall, and not a bit has stuck yet. He is likely the most tested and analyzed athlete in sport history. While it takes an amazing amount of suspension of disbelief to accept that in as filthy a sport as there is, in as filthy an era it has experienced that one guy would be as dominant as Lance Armstrong - and that HE would be clean above all the rest, you have to accept that so far he's shown to be clear of wrong doing...SO FAR. Maybe this monkey found the turd that will stay up there, we will see.

And it would be a far more egregious waste of tax dollars if the government funded USADA and they failed to persue a case like this. This is kind of thing is why USADA exists, and let's hope this is the terminal case on the issue. If Lance gets this one to go away, how about we just leave him alone from now on.

If you want to say that the government shouldn't be in the business of sports rule-enforcement at all, it is a different discussion...
 

Rovin Romine

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they are doing it because they are convinced that Lance cheated despite the testing that was in place at the time and they want him nailed to the wall.

There are lots of reasons to hate this.
But this isn't one of them either.

I just don't get the pro-doping/cheating crowd. Bonds, Clemens, Armstrong - these guys made millions and through their success directly encourage a culture of drug use by aspiring young athletes. Let me say that again - millions. I'm waiting for a club to sue a player over this. That might put a damper on things.

Clemens might be the worst though, for volunteering to testify on the issue, but only for the purpose of lying (to the entity that made his sport a monopoly, regulates it, and is directly responsible for him making his millions off of his natural/skill/drive/obsession).

Why have any sympathy for any of these guys?

I'd love for Lance to have been real, and regardless of any artificially enhanced physical ability, he was a wonderful tactical rider. I've always had my suspicions, but I'm willing to wait for the proof. Seems to me though, based on the WSJ letter, that the USADA got several riders to explain the exact mechanics of the doping scheme, then went and found more corroborating evidence. If so, it would make for a very strong case that Lance doped.

I love cycling and still ride when I can. I used to do pick up centuries in late HS and college, but it never occurred to me to try and do anything with cycling because I knew (even then) that I'd have to dope to keep up with the dopers. I don't regret it, and am not writing out of a sour grapes mentality. I just want to point out that when the top guys use this stuff, it does go all the way to the bottom - the 16yr old HS athlete who is thinking about getting an edge on his competition. Or worse, the legitimate 16yr old rare talent (not me) who thinks he *must* do it because guys he'd normally beat *are* doing it.
 

Average Reds

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But this isn't one of them either.

I just don't get the pro-doping/cheating crowd. Bonds, Clemens, Armstrong - these guys made millions and through their success directly encourage a culture of drug use by aspiring young athletes. Let me say that again - millions. I'm waiting for a club to sue a player over this. That might put a damper on things.

Clemens might be the worst though, for volunteering to testify on the issue, but only for the purpose of lying (to the entity that made his sport a monopoly, regulates it, and is directly responsible for him making his millions off of his natural/skill/drive/obsession).

Why have any sympathy for any of these guys?

I'd love for Lance to have been real, and regardless of any artificially enhanced physical ability, he was a wonderful tactical rider. I've always had my suspicions, but I'm willing to wait for the proof. Seems to me though, based on the WSJ letter, that the USADA got several riders to explain the exact mechanics of the doping scheme, then went and found more corroborating evidence. If so, it would make for a very strong case that Lance doped.

I love cycling and still ride when I can. I used to do pick up centuries in late HS and college, but it never occurred to me to try and do anything with cycling because I knew (even then) that I'd have to dope to keep up with the dopers. I don't regret it, and am not writing out of a sour grapes mentality. I just want to point out that when the top guys use this stuff, it does go all the way to the bottom - the 16yr old HS athlete who is thinking about getting an edge on his competition. Or worse, the legitimate 16yr old rare talent (not me) who thinks he *must* do it because guys he'd normally beat *are* doing it.
I don't disagree with many of the sentiments you are expressing about users of PEDs, but I do object to your characterization of those who are weary of the process as being "pro-doping/cheating." I also think that it's more than a bit disingenuous to lump Bonds, Clemens and Armstrong together the way you do.

Keeping the topic to what we're actually talking about here, there is something fundamentally unjust about an investigative "process" that performs hundreds of tests and conducts multiple investigations over more than a decade and simply never ends.

As a matter of logic, it is impossible to prove a negative. And it would appear that this is the primary motivating factor driving the groups pursing Armstrong. It is 13 years after his initial Tour de France victory. He has passed every test he has taken. He has withstood every investigation. He has even been investigated by the US government - which declined to file charges. (Perhaps because they understand that they need to be able to prove their charges in a court of law.) At what point does it end? Or is your opinion the same one shared by these groups, which is that Armstrong cheated, and we simply have to keep pressing until we prove it?

As years pass, memories become hazy, evidence is lost or destroyed, witnesses die or disappear. This is the reason (in the US, at least) we employ a statue of limitations for some crimes and a prohibition against double jeopardy for all crimes. The individuals and organizations intent on destroying Armstrong recognize no such limitations, and at this point they have become as odious as the cheaters they profess to pursue - if not more so.

As it relates to Clemens, I am in complete agreement with your comments. He sought out the spotlight to clear his name, and clearly lied to do so. Whether he is found guilty or not (and I suspect not) his troubles are completely self-inflicted and I have no sympathy.
 

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I know it was against the written rules of the sport and so for that its too bad that cheating has happened. But isnt every competitor in every sport trying to find the "advantage". In the end dont they all cheat to a degree?

I dont want it to sound like I condone cheating. I dont. I dont want one player to have an advantage over another to the detriment of the spectacle.

But I guess I wonder at what point does "everyone cheating" become "everyone was on equal footing"? If Lance and Contador where both doing illegal stuff.....and Lance won.....

Sure you can say that Lance had more money or access to more expensive and effective drugs.....but then again I am sure he had better bikes and equipment and communications then half the field too.
What if the teams with steel 32 lb bikes used drugs and finished in the top 10 while Armstrong and Contador used carbon fiber bikes with aerodynamic fabrics but where actually clean and finished 1-2?

I am troubled by the possible health ramifications. But as we have said these guys CHOOSE to do this to their bodies.

I guess like most of you I am sick of this. Unlike many of you (and perhaps to my detriment) I just don't care anymore.... at least not about biking.

They all cheated....Lance was better then them when cheating...so in my mind he was the class best of his generation.

Doesnt make him a good guy but then again should we consider any of the assholes we watch on TV as heros or good guys.
 

Rovin Romine

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AR,

I hear what you're saying - I'm an attorney who practices criminal law (defense) and who used to be a public defender.

I think your points are completely valid. I would be far more troubled if there was the possibility of criminal sanction (no matter how minor) and I'm unaware of any civil penalties ($) which might attach to the USADA decision if he's eventually found to have doped. At this point it appears to be just about prestige. If we were talking about jailing the man, I'd have a completely different gut reaction.

IF Lance did cheat his way into 7 TDF victories against world class competition, I don't really think "weariness" is a good reason to oppose exposing him. (Mind you, not 'convicting' him.)

Ultimately, there are always going to be rumors and doubts, so I'd rather have the USADA put all the evidence/proof they have into the public arena, rather than let it linger on. For example, Rafael Palmero is still a messy case, because we have no real idea of what/when he used PEDs. Was his career largely clean up to the last year or so, or was it fundamentally tainted? On the other hand Pete Rose's case is a clear one. Agree with the sanction on Rose or not, at least we know what he did and what the evidence against him was, which makes for a much easier discussion on gambling and MLB. In Lance's case, I'd feel better, pro or con, if we had clear information about what he did and when he did it, rather than the improbable record and the swirling rumors.

I also have some sympathy for the enforcers on this one, again, in the absence of criminal/civil penalties. It's got to be hard to see those 7 titles, to hear the rumors, to see who Lance was associating with, and not be able to do anything about it. If there was truly an opportunity for Lance to have cleared the air, and if he chose not to, then I have little sympathy for him. I suspect he may have been caught in a bind though - unable to come forward with information while criminal charges may have been pending against him. That's something that shouldn't be held against him.

Perhaps the best solution would have been to offer Lance complete immunity in exchange for a frank confession of what he did followed by an expose/cleansing of what troubles the sport of cycling.

The question really is, are you going after the Man or are you going after the Problem? Perhaps it's more about the Man at this point, and that, well, I really don't approve of.

***

I think the "CHOICE" issue is an unfortunate argument in this context.

There are very few of us who don't cheat at something at some point in our lives. This is human nature. For most of us the cheating is inconsequential - that is to say, we don't owe our existence as persons to our cheating acts. Small matters such as glancing at another student's bubble sheet, knowing that a particular card in the deck has a nick on the edge, or starting a fraction of a second too soon in an informal race are not grave moral failures, although if they are chronic they may lead to such. Which isn't good for me - I cheat all the time in softball and I find it fun.

Anyway, there are some who cheat themselves into a position of power and privilege, and most of these acts are captured as some type of crime or another (the taking of money, lying to induce behavior in others, etc.).

I happen to believe that people are somewhat vulnerable and culture driven, but that they have good equity sense. Is it really Fair that person X gets something you should have gotten just because of some kind of cheating (factor Y)? Well, why should you use factor Y also? Isn't everyone using factor Y? And if everyone is doing it, how can it really be cheating? I think it's more appropriate to morally condemn cheating if it's extreme, not part of the "culture" so to speak. It's greyer if everyone is doing it.

The distinguishing factor in the big sports PED cases is that we're talking about substances that can shorten your life and/or kill you, and taking (or not taking) those substances can make a difference of millions of dollars.

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand the pressures to use PEDs, and I believe they go all the way down to the bottom of the chain. Honestly, I'd have been tempted if someone had come to me and said, "Look, you're 17, just go on this thing for awhile, then you can stop. Doing it means you can achieve X, Y, Z accomplishments in your sport, and you'll go on to get a scholarship and a college education. You can stop any time you want to, but it opens the door to so much. And by the way, all the competition is doing it too." You can picture all the other BS arguments too ("Your body makes this stuff, it's natural, it's just speeding things up, etc.). There's also the issue of authority figures turning a blind eye when they get ahold of the excellent (enhanced) athlete, and thus tacitly encouraging it.

That's my real problem with it; that the success of these high profile guys (Bonds/Clemens/Lance/Whomever) promotes PED use, which is dangerous and costly to us as a society. (Remember, we see the successes on TV, not the hidden failures of, say, a 40yr old developing cancer after a fringey athletic career.)

I don't think you can mask the complexity of the problem in a "well, the guy CHOSE to do it" argument. Did our hypothetical 17yr old "choose" or were they pressured? Maybe that 17yr old should never have been tempted in the first place and should have focused on academics or business or whatnot instead.

The "choice" argument makes things easier for people who want to judge quickly - and honestly, wasting time on other people's bullshit, while it might show compassion, is something I can *completely* understand wanting to avoid. So I'm not completely knocking it as an approach, and I'm glad it condemns PED use. But this is really a pervasive problem, and the nuances of it have to be worked through.

***

At the end of the day, I feel badly for the one clean guy in the fight. Doubtless there was at least one. I'd like to know who he was and if he could have won on a level playing field. WHICH IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF ATHLETIC COMPETITION IN THE FIRST PLACE. Please excuse the capitals. If someone's skimming the post I want to catch their eye. Because it all comes down to that in the end. We love the contest between the raw rookie with the physical skill and the wily vet. We love to watch the little guy in there with the big guys. We love all of the contradictions and individual stories people bring to sport. And we're curious as hell to see what happens when skill, strength, intelligence and drive are Constrained by rules and forms and set against each other. We want to see who wins and marvel at how they do it. I don't think adding PEDs to the equation makes for better sport, sportsmen, or fans.
 

bakahump

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You make some great points that I personally am still digesting. One major one being that Kids see these guys as heroes and the fact that they "Potentially" used drugs could influence mine yours or someone else rather naive 16 or 18 year old that by doing the same they can achieve the same status.

One thing I would "wonder about" is
I feeling badly for the one clean guy in the fight.
Cycling is SO bad that we dont know there was 1 clean guy. We certainly cant go on passing Drug tests can we. Maybe the guy who finished last was clean. Or maybe he just had the worst designer drug. Or maybe he had the least natural talent that even when mixed with effective drugs still equaled a last place finish.

At the end of the day I (perhaps naively) think all these guys know the capabilities of the others. All of them have magic pills and all of them have Bikes that weigh ounces. Some will weigh 12 and some will weigh 4. There will be haves and have nots.

Armstrong was a "Have", who had great talent AND access to the best equipment (which in this case most likely included Drugs). That will never change in any sport. Some Nascar teams will have more money and better equipment then others. They will win more. Doesnt mean that their drivers are the best or even that man for man their team is the best.

In the end perhaps the illusion is that drugs make the playing field uneven. Perhaps the playing field has always been and always will be uneven for 1 reason or another.
 
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No one in the HISTORY of sport has been tested more than Lance Armstrong. If they haven't found anything substantial prior to this latest charge, he's clean. Good luck US Govt.. Let's waste some MORE tax dollars chasing this down.
The same could have been said about Barry Bonds, too. And Clemens. Tests never got them, confessions and dealers/trainers did.
 

Rovin Romine

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Baka,

I agree that the playing field won't be perfectly even in cycling and some other sports - and a legitimate aspect of the various races is how much a new technology/approach can make a difference. For example, the 1989 Tour's finish, when LeMond made up a 50 second lag to win the tour by eight seconds at the final stage. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3RV2ukMPNc) Additionally, Fignon was riding with saddle sores, but it was a well kept secret at the time.

There are some basic standards though which are applied the bikes they all have to be within a certain geometry. There was a very interesting period when someone first rode a recumbent (lying down) bike in competition. It gave such a clear advantage because of the decreased wind resistance that recumbents were banned from competition; the result was that bike manufacturers relegated what is clearly a great design (for speed/long distance/persons with sitting issues) to a fringe product. Of course, the main objection to recumbents came from established bicycle manufactures who didn't want to lose their market share.

***

You might be right about there not being one clean guy. I hope you're not, but I wouldn't be very shocked if that turned out to be the case. Which is pretty much why I don't follow cycling anymore. There's very little fun in rooting for a question mark.

I have to say it though - drugs or no, Lance was a brilliant rider and a great tactician. I'm quite comfortable believing that even without any kind of PED, he'd have made a serious run at a TDF title, perhaps even more than one. I didn't think of it till just now, but if you do use PEDs, it's also like cheating yourself out of something. You'd never know whether you were the best, or if it was just the drugs. Hmm.
 

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I have to say it though - drugs or no, Lance was a brilliant rider and a great tactician. I'm quite comfortable believing that even without any kind of PED, he'd have made a serious run at a TDF title, perhaps even more than one. I didn't think of it till just now, but if you do use PEDs, it's also like cheating yourself out of something. You'd never know whether you were the best, or if it was just the drugs. Hmm.
A clean Armstrong (and riding for a clean Motorola/USPS/Disco) would not have made a serious run at any TdF overalls (or most likely his rainbow jersey or couple of classics wins either). He was obviously a great natural talent, and yes he was one of the smartest and most attentive guys in the peloton too, but at brass tacks grand tours are decided by wattage divided by body weight, and a rider's ability to sustain that wattage day after day. All the tactical nous in the world is a small marginal gain up against an Ullrich, Zulle or Vino etc running on rocket fuel, and we know now that pretty much every single rider of note was EPO'd up to the eyeballs during that period. That's worth minutes and minutes over the duration of a 3 week stage race.
 

Rovin Romine

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A 16 year old doesn't take steroids because of Roger Clemens. He takes steroids because of the other 16 year olds he wants to beat.
If you're right about that, the follow up question is "But would he if that other 16yr old was fairly sure to be jailed or suspended from athletic competition?"

For that matter, would college athletes do it, or MLB players do it if they faced "real" sanctions?

And by "real" sanctions, I mean getting bounced out of the game/going to jail AND losing your earned money by doing it.
 

Rovin Romine

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Actually I oppose them, and have argued that in those cases, juries should be told that the judge has no discretion in sentencing. ("Min-mans," as we say in FL, and I've never been in front of a judge that agreed with that argument.)

But, ad hominems aside:

If you don't think there's widespread PED use at all levels, that's one thing.
If you don't think that PED use is dangerous or is a problem, that's another thing.
If you don't think that "sanctions" of any kind would result in lower PED usage, that's a third thing.

But if you don't care if players are clean or not, why are you weighing in? Seriously.
 

Spacemans Bong

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I'm weighing in because an irrelevant organization is trying to smear an American sporting hero in a redundant morality play. Now I would be happier if Lance said I did them, fuck you, but he can't because society and an organization seem to think you can cycle around France unaided.

I don't care about PEDs and if people do them then fine. The futility of anti-doping agencies apes the futility of the drug war, and the far more reasonable strategy would be to try and make them as safe as possible. But we can't even consider that, in part because WE MUST THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!1111 and in part because we're still butthurt the Commies kicked our ass in the 70s because they did it first.

It's not even really a safety issue, disregarding that most people think steroids will kill you because Lyle Alzado said so, not because of hard scientific evidence. If you care about your kid's wellbeing you'd steer them away from top-level athletic competition. How many people who played sports no greater than high school have chronic knee problems? Half the point of sports is people pushing themselves beyond healthy limits.
 

Rovin Romine

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Well, first off, I don't really use the word "hero" for any kind of athlete or sportsman, be it cycling or baseball or tiddlywinks. I'm sure there are genuine heroes who play sports, but it's not the sports which make them so.

Secondly, I think I'm grown up enough not to really get bent out of shape if someone is exposed as a cheater, be it Clemens, Lance, or whomever is outed (Yes, even the golden Sox of yore whom we always secretly wondered about.)

Lastly, these substances greatly change the human body in a way that does not naturally occur. It seems to me that you should be showing us that PEDs *are* safe. If they are, then I'd be happy to concede I don't have an argument against them. It would be like arguing against vitamins or high protein diets or whatnot. If you're seriously trying to assert that PEDs don't carry health risks and you have the medical evidence to prove it, you ought to get on the phone to the FDA right away; I'm sure they're just waiting for you call.

As a total aside, I don't think the drug war has worked, and I'm for the legalization of MJ. But that does not mean I want the neighbors to be able to get and do as much meth as they want. In my experience most people who oppose "the Drug War" haven't had to deal with the issues that chronic addiction to serious drugs actually causes, from personality distortion, to health issues, to criminal/awful behavior. Mostly its a stand in for "I like to smoke weed and don't want to be arrested for it." Which is fine by me. But it's also very short sighted to deal with the whole range of drug related issues through the equally stupid arguments of "the drug war has failed," and "drugs kill."

Let's flip one of your arguments; would you inject your hypothetical 10 year old son with human growth hormone to give him a competitive edge? If he asked you to use meth, and you could arrange it so he would never be caught doing so, would you let him?
 

crystalline

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Also, I think Lance Armstrong is most likely a douchebag. I think trying to destroy his legacy however is indicative of the type of douchebags that most if not all professional cyclists are. I really like the sport, I like riding my bike, a lot. But I can't think of another sport where the top guys are so concerned about the other guys rather than themselves. It's like a big jealousy loop. It really comes off as guys like Hamilton just being annoyed that they got caught and another guy didn't. It's kind of pathetic, when you really think about it. Maybe other sports are like this and I just don't pay attention.
This is an interesting point. Maybe it's because there are not strong "positions" in cycling. Everyone is competing against everyone else. (There is some specialization into climbers/sprinters but much less than say in basketball). Or maybe it's because it's the one team sport I can think of where you must be the best or else you're a face in the peloton. In baseball, there's room for 8 position starters plus a rotation plus a bullpen. In basketball, you can be a star as a center, or a guard, or a wingman, and KG and Paul and Ray can play alongside one another. It's not that KG has to beat out everyone else on the team and put them on the bench in order to play. And football is even more specialized. Welker competes against the other receivers but he can be buds with the QB and RB. Or finally maybe it's because cheating is so widespread. You care about what others are doing because if they cheat more and better, they will beat you no matter how hard you train. That's got to get into people's heads.
 

Rovin Romine

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That response is hysterical. You know it's gonna be good when the first sentence takes a firm stance against "emasculation." Given Armstrong's medical history, one has to wonder about the word choice. Let's hope it does not turn into a pissing contest.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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If you're right about that, the follow up question is "But would he if that other 16yr old was fairly sure to be jailed or suspended from athletic competition?"

For that matter, would college athletes do it, or MLB players do it if they faced "real" sanctions?

And by "real" sanctions, I mean getting bounced out of the game/going to jail AND losing your earned money by doing it.
Jailing a 16 year old for putting some PEDs in his body is, I think, really unpalatable. You want to test high school kids, fine. You want colleges to consider revoking scholarship money, fine. But jail time is a good way to screw up the lives of kids who by and large can make a lot of dumb decisions by virtue of age alone. The "what if" isn't about the kid if you're talking about jail time, it's about how fucked the system is that would do that to a kid.
 

Rovin Romine

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Sigh. Yes. You are right. I am not in fact advocating locking 16 year olds up. I was trying to make a point about sanctions and deterrence (if any), some four posts up in the thread; hence the "or suspended" part of the sentence.

So what's your take on this? Apart from your objection to the word "jailed".
 

tulse_luper

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Everyone is competing against everyone else. (There is some specialization into climbers/sprinters but much less than say in basketball).
No.

Mark Cavendish and Marcel Kittel don't give a shit about Andy Schleck and Michelle Scarponi, and vice versa. Points jersey in the Giro and GT time limits aside, they may as well be in different sports.

Puncheur, rouleur, sprinter, grimpeur, cobbles, TT specialist, etc. Cycling is absolutely a sport of specialisations (or "positions"), and unlike basketball or football (horrendous analogy alert) each category of rider has discrete and extremely prestigious goals of their own to target. The next time Johan Museeuw loses sleep over post-cancer Lance Armstrong (or Cancellara versus Contador) will be the first time.

If we're going to approach this via the lens of cyclist on the psychiatrist's coach lets at least have a working knowledge of how the sport works.
 

crystalline

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Fair enough, especially considering all the events outside the grand tours that specialists target their strengths to.
My analogy was the same as yours, and equally horrendous.

Do you think that cyclists worry more about other cyclists than in other sports? I suppose the prospect of doping could also drive such a thing.