Manfred says there are places in Mexico we could go for expansion

charlieoscar

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"Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Nashville in the United States, certainly Montreal, maybe Vancouver, in Canada," Manfred said. "We think there's places in Mexico we could go over the long haul."
Houston Chronicle, July 19th

Mexico? We have a potus who wants to build a fence and kidnapping in Mexico is a big concern.

Portland lost their AAA team a few years ago as did Vancouver several years back. Montreal lost an MLB team (although there are people who think it is ready for another team). Vegas would probably draw but I don't think I'd want to play ball there in the summer (dome?). Charlotte and Nashville struck me as minor league towns when I was there.
 

hbk72777

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InstaFace

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Yet another great opportunity for me to flog an old great post by Joe Posnanski: Free the minor leagues. Summary: Baseball is a tremendously successful regional sport, in regions that have major-league teams, but it's not as successful nationally as, say, college football, partly because there are so many parts of the country that simply don't have access to competitive pro baseball. The minor league system makes a farce of the idea that the teams you see are sincerely trying to have a successful season, so there's no reason for anyone to get emotionally involved with them.

A much better solution would be a league system closer to what you see in european football, not with promotion/relegation necessarily (though I think that'd be awesome), but more about being able to buy and sell players' contracts, and have minor-league teams competing to win their league by assembling talent and putting it in a position to win. I think all minor league franchises would be financially successful if they could go tell their local region that they're keeping their stars (or selling them to buy more stars) and trying to win something.

Not to mention the shittyness with which minor leaguers are treated when they're bargained-for by a union that doesn't care about them in the slightest. We've covered that before and don't need to get into it, but it would be a happy consequence of the plan.

So, expansion? Start at home. Adding more major-league franchises would be great, but what about the 200 franchises you've got lying around as spare parts? Colonize the country with legitimate baseball. It can happen - I'll argue with anyone about why and how it could happen.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Yet another great opportunity for me to flog an old great post by Joe Posnanski: Free the minor leagues. Summary: Baseball is a tremendously successful regional sport, in regions that have major-league teams, but it's not as successful nationally as, say, college football, partly because there are so many parts of the country that simply don't have access to competitive pro baseball. The minor league system makes a farce of the idea that the teams you see are sincerely trying to have a successful season, so there's no reason for anyone to get emotionally involved with them.

A much better solution would be a league system closer to what you see in european football, not with promotion/relegation necessarily (though I think that'd be awesome), but more about being able to buy and sell players' contracts, and have minor-league teams competing to win their league by assembling talent and putting it in a position to win. I think all minor league franchises would be financially successful if they could go tell their local region that they're keeping their stars (or selling them to buy more stars) and trying to win something.

Not to mention the shittyness with which minor leaguers are treated when they're bargained-for by a union that doesn't care about them in the slightest. We've covered that before and don't need to get into it, but it would be a happy consequence of the plan.

So, expansion? Start at home. Adding more major-league franchises would be great, but what about the 200 franchises you've got lying around as spare parts? Colonize the country with legitimate baseball. It can happen - I'll argue with anyone about why and how it could happen.

How would minor league franchises be able to keep their stars from being promoted to the Majors, exactly? Even if they can buy and sell their minor league players, if they are good enough, they are going to be in the Bigs. Are you suggesting the Minors breaks off from the Majors and becomes its own entity? No affiliations?
 

Cuzittt

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We have unaffiliated minor leagues.

When the major league club likes a player, they buy him from the affiliated team and... Places him in one of their affiliated teams.

The whole point of the minor league system (as a player) is to get to the Majors.
 

Cesar Crespo

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We have unaffiliated minor leagues.

When the major league club likes a player, they buy him from the affiliated team and... Places him in one of their affiliated teams.

The whole point of the minor league system (as a player) is to get to the Majors.

The Redsox famously paid the Chico Outlaws $1 for Daniel Nava.


edit: I think you'd have better luck trying to make College Baseball more popular than the minor leagues or indie leagues.
 

InstaFace

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Start by reading Posnanski's post. To say he's a better (and more thoughtful) writer about baseball than I am would be like saying Bill Belichick is a better football coach than I am. ("...but you're not even a football coach!" "exactly.")

But to your questions:

- Yes, they break off and become their own entity with no formal affiliations. They might have some informal ones, because if there's one major league franchise that's a lot closer than any others, you'd probably see them buy your players more often to maintain local rooting interest / marketing value, you'd loan players downstream more often so they didn't have to move as much, etc. But in general, they could buy players from other teams, much the same way as players are traded today.

- The ml teams wouldn't necessarily be able to keep their stars from being promoted permanently, but they'll be getting better and better financial offers for those players if they develop well enough, so sooner or later they won't be able to resist the purchase offers, because they could turn around and use even a fraction of that money to improve the entire roster, pay bonuses to the staff, pocket a little of it, etc. By refusing to sell entirely (as opposed to just holding out for what you think would be a more fair price), eventually you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

- There's also a "loan" concept, where you own the rights to a player's contract but agree with another team (usually in a lower league) to send him to that team and they'll pay him and play for them. You'd do that with an understanding of how much he'd play, so that he can get action, and the receiving team would get talent they might not otherwise have access to. Sometimes you do a "loan with an option to buy", so they could spend money to acquire him more permanently and then try to develop him and sell at a profit. This is an important feature because it helps get young promising talent more playing time than they might get just on the basis of their then-current skills. Many young american soccer players sign with a top European team and then are immediately loaned out to a team in a league in which they'd be competitive and can grow.

- Players' path to the majors wouldn't be affected much; they still need to perform, and develop, and if they do they'll get bought by bigger leagues up until a major league team is interested. Minor league teams still will have every incentive to help players make the most of their talents. The balance of emphasis will shift slightly, though, towards these teams trying to win games and play their best players. If they end up not playing players that they should play, other teams will detect an undervalued asset, and try to "buy low".
 

hbk72777

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It has been a number of years since I was in Charlotte, so I guess things have changed. Perhaps the same with Nashville.

The past 10 years have really seen a population shift. NY and Cali are losing people by the thousands, and other states like North Dakota of all places, have picked up.

There's also been a big shift out west, so hopefully, in 10-20 years, more teams can play in OK, NM, OR , IN and Nevada
 

DJnVa

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Major league teams talk a lot about using minor leagues to institute an organizational philosophy. They’re not going to be a fan of losing that.
 

SumnerH

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The past 10 years have really seen a population shift. NY and Cali are losing people by the thousands, and other states like North Dakota of all places, have picked up.
This is not exactly accurate, especially regarding California. From 2010-2017:
  • California grew by 2.2 million; it's 6.13% growth was higher than the national average (5.5%)
  • New York grew by about 500,000 people; its growth was slow (2.43%) but still positive
  • North Dakota has indeed boomed (2nd among all states, 3rd if you count DC), growing at about 12.31%; this represents 80,000 people, and its population remains pretty small at 755,000 overall. This was largely because of a local oil boom and unrelated to national/regional trends, and has stagnated recently (indeed, they saw a small population loss in 2017).
  • The District of Columbia (+15.33%) and Texas (+12.56%) saw the biggest increases.
  • Vermont, Illinois, and West Virginia have seen actual population loss (most significantly in WV, which is down 2% for a net loss of about 40,000.
  • Several outlying territories (American Samoa, the Mariana Islands, and US Virgin Islands) have seen small declines as well; and
  • Puerto Rico is down over 10% in population, after being pummeled by the hurricane
(In 2017 Alaska, Hawaii, Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Dakota, West Virginia and Wyoming lost population.)

Overall, the Midwest (1.87%) and Northeast (2.08%) saw the slowest growth 2010-2017, while the West (7.6%) and South (7.95%) saw the biggest growth. That trend remained essentially the same in 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population_growth_rate

There's also been a big shift out west, so hopefully, in 10-20 years, more teams can play in OK, NM, OR , IN and Nevada
NM has not benefited from the western boom, growing at just 1.4% and remaining at barely over 2 million total population. IN and OK also grew slower than the national average (and aren't out west).
 
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Awesome Fossum

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Major league teams talk a lot about using minor leagues to institute an organizational philosophy. They’re not going to be a fan of losing that.
Definitely. Pos's suggestion -- which I totally agree with -- is more about what's good for baseball than it is what's good for the Red Sox or even MLB. Which is why it won't happen, unfortunately.

This system more or less already exists with NPB. Ohtani is developed by the Hokkaido Nippon-Ham Fighters -- who get to compete for and win the 2016 Japan Series while doing it -- before being sold to the Angels. Why should Charlotte or Memphis be an different than Sapporo or Tokyo?
 

DJnVa

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Because the system is already in place here. For the other leagues to survive they’ll need buy in from MLB and media partners. They won’t get it.

Essentially this is what it used to be. Then MLB teams decided it would be better to do it themselves so they bought/made agreements with minor league teams.

The model he’s talking about was tried and did not work. There is even less reason to think it would work now. A minor league team without MLB money? Some would work but not enough.
 

Awesome Fossum

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The model he's advocating for is the soccer system, and I think that's proven its viability. In baseball terms, a better way to think about it would be an NPB team in the United States rather than a minor league team without MLB money. Those already exist, like the St. Paul Saints.

I totally agree that these are all pipe dreams, and I don't think anyone, Pos and Instaface included, are arguing otherwise. MLB effectively is baseball, for better or worse, and the current system is working just fine for them.
 

Boggs26

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Isn't the issue simply the money necessary to do this? Using the St. Paul Saints as an example, is there anything preventing them from signing high end college and high school players for above MLB draft slot bonuses and then passing them major league money afterward?

Assuming there isn't, then the only thing preventing indie leagues from doing what being discussed is money... Lots and lots of money. But unless they are willing to pay players millions, there is no way to hold on to their best players.
 

charlieoscar

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Isn't the issue simply the money necessary to do this? Using the St. Paul Saints as an example, is there anything preventing them from signing high end college and high school players for above MLB draft slot bonuses and then passing them major league money afterward?

Assuming there isn't, then the only thing preventing indie leagues from doing what being discussed is money... Lots and lots of money. But unless they are willing to pay players millions, there is no way to hold on to their best players.
A contract would have to be written so the player couldn't just take the bonus and walk after a year. While I have seen standard baseball contracts, I have never seen one having to do with bonuses and one question that does come to mid is whether bonuses are typically paid up front or in installments. In MLB, a team can't trade a draftee until he has been in their system for a year. If they haven't finished paying the bonus, who does if the player is traded?
 

Boggs26

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A contract would have to be written so the player couldn't just take the bonus and walk after a year. While I have seen standard baseball contracts, I have never seen one having to do with bonuses and one question that does come to mid is whether bonuses are typically paid up front or in installments. In MLB, a team can't trade a draftee until he has been in their system for a year. If they haven't finished paying the bonus, who does if the player is traded?
I'm assuming in this situation that indie teams would use a similar contract to what MLB uses. The issue is still the $. Right now indie teams pay what? About the equivalent of a single A salary? So they'd have to be willing to pay all their players at least 10-20 times what they pay now in order to keep any better than AA filler players (which is probably the best case scenario if what they have now, right?). In order to do that, they'd need TV contacts and larger stadiums in order to sell more tickets. It's just not feasible unless a group of billionaires decide they want to throw a TON of money at it in the hopes of competing with MLB.
 

bsj

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I dont get why san Antonio isnt higher in the list to be considered. Properly positioned it could draw from 2 million people. From two of the 12 biggest cities in the US including austin.