Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

Marciano490

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No. I haven't. Because that's wrong. To shirk your duties with a fake thing incapacitating you is very wrong in my opinion.
I'm still confused, because the article you posted had a number of quotes from people saying the imbalance could be causing him pain. So, what exactly is he faking? Worst case, it sounds like his mechanics got askew, the repetitive motion caused an imbalance that led to discomfort and so he took time off to retool.

This is common human experience. Ever twist your ankle and your hip ends up hurting? If you're going this route, at least tell us what the big lie he's perpetrating is.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Completely different ideas.

There is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. Each transaction people make between each other has two winners. Each believe they are made better off.

There is a fixed amount of wins in an NBA season. If the Sixers add another all-star/superstar that decreases our chances of winning the championship. There is only one NBA champion. I root for banners.
You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else on this board. Furthermore, I think its entirely acceptable to root for Celtics competitors to make mistakes on their roster moves.

That said, we don't have enough information to call Fultz either a liar or a fraud. As others have referenced, he is part of a major professional sports team with a full compliment of executives, coaches and press handlers. In addition, Fultz has a bunch of personal handlers including agents, sponsors, advisors and family.

If this 19 year old kid truly has issues that range beyond the physical, its entirely acceptable for those around him to give him every chance to work through them without the added pressure, scrutiny and unforgiving public taking shots at him.

You may beg to differ and think that his salary makes him fair game for all critics and that is your right. However, this is the exact sort of criticism those around Fultz are likely looking to protect him from while he works through whatever it is he is dealing with at present.
 

DJnVa

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No. I haven't. Because that's wrong. To shirk your duties with a fake thing incapacitating you is very wrong in my opinion.
It's on you to provide evidence (or at least a coherent argument) that he's faking this or take your scalding hot takes elsewhere, because you're derailing the shit out of this thread.
 

Ed Hillel

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First things I noticed were the hitch and hesitation in the first video and then the reaction in the second. It definitely seems like there’s a mental element, though the percentage of that versus physical, who knows. I’d wager it’s significant.

I also have no idea how this isn’t a bigger story. Imagine poor Lonzo Ball going through something like this.
 

slamminsammya

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I disagree. I don't feel bad for him at all. I think making up a fake injury to cover up the fact that you're playing terrible is extremely dishonest and pretty pathetic. I want him to fail more now.
As someone who has had the yips, I have a viscerally negative reaction to this post.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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It's stuff like this, with the updates and the "he's almost ready to get ready" announcements, that make me appreciate so much more how Bill Belichick handles injuries and the like. Just keep it all in house. As a fan it can be maddening to not know what is going on, but ultimately the goal of winning games is better served.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Here's the latest 'don't panic' article from Sixersense:

Would you draft him No. 1?

Nothing controversial in there:

So Fultz, who struggled while playing through motion-limiting injury, can’t be judged too heavily either. It wasn’t like he was all bad during his first four games, as his shifty ball handling and ability to get to the rim still leaves some optimism regardless of his jumper (although the jumper is close to a make-or-break skill).

That same philosophy, to some extent, can be reversed as well. A great rookie year doesn’t always lead to a great career, as evidenced by players like O.J. Mayo and Tyreke Evans. Players can thrive early on and hit roadbumps in the future — that’s just the innate unpredictability of NBA basketball.
 

Bob420

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FT form looks a little quicker and smoother. Starts a little left and release is in front of face but way better than beginning of season

 

DJnVa

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I'm glad the #1 pick now appears to have a good FT shooting form.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The clip on the link, when he grabs his kiss and goes for a dunk, strikes me much more as ‘fuck this shit’ than ‘I’m gonna overcome’. If that makes sense. His body language is terrible in all those clips. Maybe there really was something to the criticisms of him not being an alpha.
 

lovegtm

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The clip on the link, when he grabs his kiss and goes for a dunk, strikes me much more as ‘fuck this shit’ than ‘I’m gonna overcome’. If that makes sense. His body language is terrible in all those clips. Maybe there really was something to the criticisms of him not being an alpha.
Stevens puts a lot of emphasis on "grit" and I'd imagine that's something the team is very much trying to suss out in interviews and background research.
 

RetractableRoof

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I wonder how much of athletic success is willingness to put in work on the drudgery. The 1000 three pointers. The footwork. Perfecting the jab.
Interesting question. Most of that drudgery usually occurs in sports at a young age. In most sports refinement occurs in the minor leagues. My perception is new skill building in basketball occurs off-season versus in-season. But repairing or ripping apart a core skill and rebuilding it in-season while the world watches/waits has got to suck. We usually only see a reconstruction of a major skill on the backside of a major injury right?

This kid is soooo young as well. A double dose of suck to seemingly have to rebuild a core skill on the fly while everyone watches. A triple dose if you add the weight of the trade to his shoulders (that alone might be worth the price of seeing a sports psychologist). We've got that video because the player is living in a fishbowl right now.

More directly, I'd add to your question - what separates the Gerald Green / Kedrick Brown athletes from the Tony Allen / Bruce Bowen athletes? What changes a player from end of the bench to a solid rotation piece? It has to be some combination of right team/coach/fit, an opportunity or minutes, physical growth/development, and being on the other side of the completed drudgery you mention, right? And maybe some luck - an injury at the wrong time, could send everything sideways.
 

Marciano490

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Yes and no as to the drudgery occurring at a young age, and I guess it depends on what you define as drudgery. I remember being able to push myself to train for hours, but I hated stretching. Loathed it, so would get little injuries and imbalances (they're a real thing!) that affected my performance because I didn't have the discipline to stretch or take other recuperative measures because they bored me. In basketball, I'm sure there are guys who love the drills and the one on ones and scrimmages, but even through a pro career I imagine there's times where you just have to stand on the court alone and shoot 1000 shots from the same spot.
 

RetractableRoof

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Agreed, drudgery can take many forms, each different for each person. To me roadwork sucks... I count every freakin step and always have. Drudgery with a capital D. Loved pushups, hated situps. Personally I always understood and didn't mind working on the little fundamentals - knowing they would appear in almost every moment of competition. I think it was Kyrie that was quoted in a piece very recently that paraphrased went something like "fundamentals need to be mastered so that in the moment your mind can be freed for creativity or being in the flow/zone of the game". To that end (and I never saw it as clearly as his statement), I never viewed the fundamentals as drudgery per se, but as a means to an end. I didn't short cut them, I made sure each was as pure as I could. To each his own though, I'm not quibbling with labels.

That said, once at the NBA/pro level I think things are different. It's my perception that most every player is putting in the basics to stay on the roster - the stuff that happens in the practice in front of teammates and coaches, trainers, therapists. The separators are the stuff that moves a person from 10 day contract to end of the bench sub, to occasional rotation player, to solid rotation player, to starter, to all star, to where ever. When Bowen is told he's an outside jumper from being an all-star - what does he do with it? Does he consider those things drudgery? But there are obviously plenty of players who have fallen off the end of the bench not due to athleticism, but maybe because those things were drudgery. Maybe that's what we used to call persistence or tenacity - fighting through the drudgery to get where they need to be. Maybe my quibble is quantity. Maybe putting up 100 shots from that spot is every day normal, and 500 is working through a temporary bump in the road, and 1000 is developing / transitioning to another skill? And for the athlete where is the drudgery / mental discipline line - in the context of a broken shot or slump, or a night at the club calling out to you, or a series at home where a new born baby is competing with gym time.

Taking things to the Nth degree I guess, but I think when you have Larry Bird, Ray Allen putting in those 1000 shots or shooting for 2.5 hours before a game it also pushes on the younger kids to push through their own drudgery (at least the smart ones get that message). Brady spends 3 hours breaking down film after meetings, Pedroia hits off a batting T to prevent creep in his swing, etc. The great ones do it. I wonder for them if it is drudgery, love of the game, a passion or drive to be the best. I wonder just what it is, and when we can bottle it (TB12 method aside).

Back to Fulz... it sounds like he is going through a number of variables. That can be a long road ahead of him. But he has the people around him to make it happen if he is persistent. It's a lot harder for the young player who is an undrafted free agent or the like who doesn't have the resources of a number 1 draft pick. It will be interesting to watch it play out.
 

luckiestman

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Yes and no as to the drudgery occurring at a young age, and I guess it depends on what you define as drudgery. I remember being able to push myself to train for hours, but I hated stretching. Loathed it, so would get little injuries and imbalances (they're a real thing!) that affected my performance because I didn't have the discipline to stretch or take other recuperative measures because they bored me. In basketball, I'm sure there are guys who love the drills and the one on ones and scrimmages, but even through a pro career I imagine there's times where you just have to stand on the court alone and shoot 1000 shots from the same spot.

Is James Toney the fighter who trained mostly by sparring? I think he was bored of the other method.
 

tims4wins

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It's not just drudgery, but commitment to a lifestyle. TB12 and LeBron are the primary examples. They live their lives with the 100% goal of optimizing performance. Everything else is secondary. Tangent: it was a different world 25 years ago, but I wonder if MJ would have been even better without the drinking, cigars, etc.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yes and no as to the drudgery occurring at a young age, and I guess it depends on what you define as drudgery. I remember being able to push myself to train for hours, but I hated stretching. Loathed it, so would get little injuries and imbalances (they're a real thing!) that affected my performance because I didn't have the discipline to stretch or take other recuperative measures because they bored me. In basketball, I'm sure there are guys who love the drills and the one on ones and scrimmages, but even through a pro career I imagine there's times where you just have to stand on the court alone and shoot 1000 shots from the same spot.
Word up on the stretching. Stretching and foam rolling is crucial and just plain sucks.

To that point, the guys that are maniacal about performance do it all. The better the discipline and motivation to succeed, the more that they go the extra mile in every area. Even for the shit things. For us mortals, we burn out when stuff gets too boring, painful, etc. We only go so far. The elite will take those thousand free throws, stretch for an hour, trim their fingernails/body hair meticulously. These guys have shit like custom socks made, because it makes a difference. That ridiculous attention to every detail separates the greats from the okays.

It's a side note to Fultz, really, but I'm quite sure that Danny and Brad were evaluating his approach to everything, not just his vertical. We may never know whether they just loved Tatum, full-stop, or whether they didn't like what they found with Fultz.
 

luckiestman

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One time, Kelly, the Ghost, Pavlik was fighting Jermaine Taylor and Jim Lampley kept contrasting Taylor’s natural talent to Pavlik’s maniacal training. At some point Larry Merchant had enough and said “ you know, Jim, the ability to work hard is a talent”.

One of the better comments Larry ever made.
 

Marciano490

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One time, Kelly, the Ghost, Pavlik was fighting Jermaine Taylor and Jim Lampley kept contrasting Taylor’s natural talent to Pavlik’s maniacal training. At some point Larry Merchant had enough and said “ you know, Jim, the ability to work hard is a talent”.

One of the better comments Larry ever made.
True, and it's an obvious point that often the more naturally physically gifted athletes don't develop the same work habits as those who flourish later, or not at all and get to the top through grit and effort (and also being in that top .001% bracket physically).

It's just interesting to reflect on because you'll often hear about how athletes are lazy or hyperfocused, but there's a range within those poles, and like jimbo points out, you really need to do every little thing and every big thing to better your chances at success. It's funny to think of all the times I picked out grains of oats to keep in caloric range, ran at 6 am in snow and sleet, lifted or fought with injuries, but stretch - nah. Even when I was competing at powerlifting, I could train like a maniac, but the idea of taking a couple hundred pounds off the bar and learning to really lift properly was anathema to me. Next week I'll unload and get my form right, next week....
 

The Needler

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One time, Kelly, the Ghost, Pavlik was fighting Jermaine Taylor and Jim Lampley kept contrasting Taylor’s natural talent to Pavlik’s maniacal training. At some point Larry Merchant had enough and said “ you know, Jim, the ability to work hard is a talent”.

One of the better comments Larry ever made.
I think the comment actually diminishes hard work (and pretty much everything else) by suggesting we're all just playing out the hand God or chance gave us. The are certain traits that are "God-given," like being 7-feet tall, or the ability to run a 4.3 forty. It may be that a stomach for hard work is among them, but I haven't seen any hard evidence to prove it.

EDIT: "Hard work is a skill," I can get behind.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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It's not just drudgery, but commitment to a lifestyle. TB12 and LeBron are the primary examples. They live their lives with the 100% goal of optimizing performance. Everything else is secondary. Tangent: it was a different world 25 years ago, but I wonder if MJ would have been even better without the drinking, cigars, etc.
Stuff like this is relative. It isn't like Jordan was competing against a Ledell Eackles who was on the TB12 program......those guys MJ was going up against were mostly doing the same thing, or worse, off the floor than Jordan was doing. If nutrition and personal trainers, sleep experts, etc was available to Jordan it would have also been available to those he was competing against thus negating that advantage.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's not just drudgery, but commitment to a lifestyle. TB12 and LeBron are the primary examples. They live their lives with the 100% goal of optimizing performance. Everything else is secondary. Tangent: it was a different world 25 years ago, but I wonder if MJ would have been even better without the drinking, cigars, etc.
TB12 and LeBron are the primary examples because they are the best players exhibiting this discipline while it is boring to look at the stuff a TJ McConnell or a Frank Gore do to continue in the league.
 

tims4wins

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Stuff like this is relative. It isn't like Jordan was competing against a Ledell Eackles who was on the TB12 program......those guys MJ was going up against were mostly doing the same thing, or worse, off the floor than Jordan was doing. If nutrition and personal trainers, sleep experts, etc was available to Jordan it would have also been available to those he was competing against thus negating that advantage.
True, fair point
 

Cesar Crespo

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Stuff like this is relative. It isn't like Jordan was competing against a Ledell Eackles who was on the TB12 program......those guys MJ was going up against were mostly doing the same thing, or worse, off the floor than Jordan was doing. If nutrition and personal trainers, sleep experts, etc was available to Jordan it would have also been available to those he was competing against thus negating that advantage.
I wonder if this gave guys like A.C. Green an advantage over his peers. He was never a star but he made the most with his talent.
 

RetractableRoof

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It's not just drudgery, but commitment to a lifestyle. TB12 and LeBron are the primary examples. They live their lives with the 100% goal of optimizing performance. Everything else is secondary. Tangent: it was a different world 25 years ago, but I wonder if MJ would have been even better without the drinking, cigars, etc.
I think the bolded is it in a nutshell for some of this stuff. What these players create for themselves (either via examples set for them or their own research) as a lifestyle and approach to their personal lives and professional careers. Hiring a nutritionist (or a partner volunteering to take that on), involving a personal trainer, sleep habits, off-season choices, personal masseuse, partying choices, etc. Just so many things to pay attention to when every little bit matters. Making them permanent part of the lifestyle would seem to make things easier.

TB12 and LeBron are the primary examples because they are the best players exhibiting this discipline while it is boring to look at the stuff a TJ McConnell or a Frank Gore do to continue in the league.
I'm not a San Antonio fan per se (admire what/how they appear to go about their business), but I would imagine that someone like Manu would be similar. I wonder what ridiculous things he might be doing to stay in the league. I bet just the ice treatments alone for his body would give me the shivers.

Stuff like this is relative. It isn't like Jordan was competing against a Ledell Eackles who was on the TB12 program......those guys MJ was going up against were mostly doing the same thing, or worse, off the floor than Jordan was doing. If nutrition and personal trainers, sleep experts, etc was available to Jordan it would have also been available to those he was competing against thus negating that advantage.
Agreed, because as much as Larry Bird was a notorious work-aholic when it came time to being on the floor and things with a basketball in his hand, it's pretty clear from all the stories that the man enjoyed a (cheap) beer or three. I'm doubting he was eating avocados by the bushel. Had he heard that Magic or MJ was doing X treatment to get an edge, I bet he would have at least investigated whether he thought it would have added a few miles to the tread on his own tires. I do wonder if more core strength training earlier in his career might have eased some of the back damage he went through - though if I remember right the story is he did the initial damage with yard or landscaping work on his mom's property. If I ever get a time machine, I'll let him know to hire a damn landscaper.
 

Marciano490

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It's funny how much of it gets into perception, too - and not funny how often that perception is based on racial bias.

But, a guy like Floyd Mayweather (who is also insanely talented) works hard as fuck. Dustin Pedroia, is amazingly physically gifted - height and hair aside.
 

Koufax

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I'm confused. Are we biased because we think FM is talented? Or because we think he works hard? Or because with think DP is talented? Or maybe because he works hard? Or all of the above? I know I'm a bigot, I'm just trying to understand how deep it runs.
 

Marciano490

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I'm confused. Are we biased because we think FM is talented? Or because we think he works hard? Or because with think DP is talented? Or maybe because he works hard? Or all of the above? I know I'm a bigot, I'm just trying to understand how deep it runs.
Sorry, that reads awkwardly. I wasn't even trying to elucidate the race point with my examples, just the first two people I thought of were a black dude and a white dude.

But, my race bias point was that oftentimes you'll hear how the white player is "scrappy" (hi, David Eckstein), or had to work hard, or has this special, first rate training protocol (Brady). And the black athlete, who can be just as big a monster in the weight and film room and kitchen, has "innate talent" and whatnot. And, it's one of those biases where people don't think they're being biased because they see it as a compliment to the "other" and almost a jab at their own race.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sorry, that reads awkwardly. I wasn't even trying to elucidate the race point with my examples, just the first two people I thought of were a black dude and a white dude.

But, my race bias point was that oftentimes you'll hear how the white player is "scrappy" (hi, David Eckstein), or had to work hard, or has this special, first rate training protocol (Brady). And the black athlete, who can be just as big a monster in the weight and film room and kitchen, has "innate talent" and whatnot. And, it's one of those biases where people don't think they're being biased because they see it as a compliment to the "other" and almost a jab at their own race.
This has been a thing forever. It's usually called the dirt dog complex around here though. Trot Nixon is a dirt dog, Manny Ramirez is lazy. Every now and again you get a JD Drew to break the trend.
 

RetractableRoof

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I'm not sure where or why race entered this discussion. Did someone make a wrong turn that needed to be corrected?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Sorry, that reads awkwardly. I wasn't even trying to elucidate the race point with my examples, just the first two people I thought of were a black dude and a white dude.

But, my race bias point was that oftentimes you'll hear how the white player is "scrappy" (hi, David Eckstein), or had to work hard, or has this special, first rate training protocol (Brady). And the black athlete, who can be just as big a monster in the weight and film room and kitchen, has "innate talent" and whatnot. And, it's one of those biases where people don't think they're being biased because they see it as a compliment to the "other" and almost a jab at their own race.
It's ok to recognize that studies have shown black athlete with ancestry traced back to West Africa have greater fast twitch fibers, including the more metabolically efficient ones, than White Americans and even East African's without being/feeling biased or racist. Recognizing genetic makeup from different regions of the globe is ok.

Blacks who trace their ancestry to West Africa have nearly all of the top sprinting times in the world without any whites near the top. Historically, whites have done better in endurance races that is before the domination of the East African athlete in Kenya came onto the scene in distance racing. East Asians have dominated ultra-endurance racing. When you have a basketball game featuring White American's and Blacks with West African roots there is going to be a natural bias simply because well.......there oftentimes is which science has shown.
 

Marciano490

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I'm not sure where or why race entered this discussion. Did someone make a wrong turn that needed to be corrected?
Yeah, I'll own that. But, unless any of us lived or worked out with these guys we're going off perception, so when people start talking about Jordan and Bird and Brady and Gore, I thought it was relevant. Maybe Brady is one of the hardest working men in the NFL. Or, maybe he's monetized his reputation and image. Or, both.
 

RetractableRoof

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But there was also mention of Kedrick Brown, Gerald Green, Tony Allen, Bruce Bowen, Ray Allen. And FWIW, I mentioned Manu not because of his skin color but because his so old his bones probably creak. We only know these players anecdotally, and if Ray Allen has a reputation (via the media or self promotion) as being a fanatic at training, nutrition, and working out then I have to take it as face value. If Gerald Green never achieves star status because he (by his own admission) didn't work hard early in his career then I take that at face value as well. Sometimes it's all we have to go on, and sometimes it's wrong. But it doesn't mean that we are right OR wrong based on race.

I just didn't see any bias in the conversation that needed correcting... maybe I'm blind.
 

Marciano490

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I wasn't lecturing or correcting anyone here. It's just been interesting to me how reputations get formed and what actually matters to athletic performance and what sportswriters and fans focus on. It was a world-at-large observation, not a SoSH one. Apologies for the confusion and detour.