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Markelle Fultz: An ongoing exploration into whether cheese fries can cause a recurrence of the yips

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by PedroKsBambino, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Lonzo Ball had the skill in college too though. Did they really have the skill or is it just SSS? He does have much better vision and play making skills than I anticipated tho.
     
  2. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

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    Whether he's a 41% 3-Pt shooter is not really the question. Lonzo is at least capable of taking the shot, so let's call *that* the skill. Fultz went from shooting five 3-pointers a game to taking only seven shots outside 15 feet in 14 games.
     
  3. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Yeah, that's where I was going.

    Had Fultz never shot a 3 pointer in college, would he have been worthy of the #1 pick? Maybe. But would he be worthy of the #1 pick by a team that has Ben Simmons? *That* was my question.

    And therefore, I was wondering how, if that "skill" doesn't return next season, how that will manifest itself when Simmons and Fultz would appear to be tough to play together for longer periods of time.
     
  4. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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  5. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Fair enough. Right now, (as someone else noted) he looks like a smaller Ben Simmons. I'm sure that has value but more along the lines of Rajon Rondo than a #1 pick.
     
  6. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Makes sense. The idea that they could ever play together for any significant amount of minutes was always based on one of them being able to shoot.
     
  7. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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    76ers' second unit has been kicking ass since Fultz joined them. Belinelli and Ilyasova have a lot to do with it as they are the shooters but Fultz finds them. Be interesting to see if this recent trend continues in the playoffs.
     
  8. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

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    Amusing how much of a better fit 2018 Tatum is for the Sixers than Fultz. I think Fultz is going to be a heck of a player...somewhere else.
     
  9. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I think you're assuming he never shoots again

    He is a perfect fit if he returns to his college shooting self.
     
  10. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, I am very skeptical he’s going to become a plus spot up shooter on the 76ers timeline. You guys are going to be competitive for the EC title this year or next. He’s clearly below Simmons and is the obvious misfit.
     
  11. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I would personally give him one whole offseason before I write off his ability to do something he has done before
     
  12. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

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    I’m looking at the whole offseason he just had in the middle of the season where he was unable to get it back. It’s weird. I’m not encouraged. We’ll see.
     
  13. Euclis20

    Euclis20 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Even if he gets his shot back, it's a misallocation of talent. They already have an incredible young point guard. Not that they couldn't play [well] together if he gets his shot back, but it's hardly controversial to say that the potential star wing player (as opposed to the potential star point guard) would be a better fit to pair with their core (lead by a star point guard and a star center).
     
  14. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I think the big thing is that Fultz’s return has increased his trade value at just the right time. Say the Spurs come to Philly with a Kawhi for Fultz and a future pick offer, who says no?

    Embiid
    Saric
    Kawhi
    Covington
    Simmons

    Then you can draft a guy like Sexton at #10 to replace Fultz.

    I think Kawhi, if he’s not a complete headcase at this point, makes a hell of a lot of sense for Philly unless LeBron really is in play.
     
  15. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    True. For the little we've seen, and knowing that he was expected it be able to shoot, it is obvious why they took him. It's too soon either way to say that he will or won't get the shot back.
     
  16. Kenny F'ing Powers

    Kenny F'ing Powers posts 18% useful shit Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Who says no? Um...San Antonio?
     
  17. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    Dear Lord. I think the Spurs could do a helluvalot better than Fultz, but if there’s even a chance of that nightmare forming, the Cs are pretty much obligated to offer up Tatum or Brown (plus) to prevent it.

    I’d much rather have Tatum or Brown than Fultz, fwiw — as I suspect would the Spurs, whose best young player is a ball-dominant PG with suspect shooting skills.
     
  18. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Kawhi has a chronic quad issue and is due a huge contract, which could very well turn into an albatross contract. This year is a giant red flag for any team who’s interested in him. Say Philly offers Fultz and #10, I think that gets them into the conversation.

    Boston could top that offer with Brown/Tatum and Sac pick but I’m not convinced the Celtics will join the fray. Does Phoenix offer up their pick if they don’t get #1? Possibly. All the other high lotto teams aren’t going to be interested. So, who are we left with? Perhaps the Lakers with a package centered around Ingram?

    I think Kawhi’s market this summer, assuming he is available, will be fascinating to watch.
     
  19. Marbleheader

    Marbleheader Dope Dope

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    Laughable to think Fultz has sufficient trade value to land a star player. Not going to happen.
     
  20. Remagellan

    Remagellan Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Once I thought Kawhi would be the completion of “the Process”. (I was hoping Brown’s SA connection could help lure him here.) Now I’m not sure that any part of him for the reasons stated above.
     
  21. Wilco's Last Fan

    Wilco's Last Fan Member SoSH Member

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    Not to pile on, but it seems a little strange that you're harping on Jaylen Brown's FT shooting in the other thread in questioning whether he's really a good shooter, but with Fultz you're saying that shooting well from range is something he's "done before", when he shot <65% from FT range in college.

    Basically, when you say shooting well is something Markelle Fultz has "done before", you're relying on an 126-attempt sample size from the college 3PT line, but then you question the validity of Jaylen Brown's 441-shot sample size from the deeper NBA line.
     
  22. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    On his own, no, and I should have been more clear. But if you attach another real asset to him like Saric or lotto pick, I think you’re in the discussion. If a team thinks that there are no long term issues with his shooting, you have a very good and cost-controlled young player on your hands.

    I also think that the Kawhi package will be less than expected but that’s just my hunch. Not many good teams can offer much and the really bad ones won’t trade a high lotto pick for a guy with his injury profile and now other issues.

    If I had to guess, the primary options will be Boston, Philadelphia, and Lakers and I bet Spurs would have a strong preference to move him to the Eastern Conference, if possible.

    If Ainge wants Kawhi, he can offer enough to where Philly probably backs out of the bidding, as they love Saric and he’d probably be needed to top any Boston offer.
     
  23. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    You would have to think that PHO would put together an attractive package. Bender is only 20 so I'm sure he has value, particularly to an international-oriented franchise like SA. PHO would be an idiot not to trade a bunch of their poor-fitting assets for Kawhi.
     
  24. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    How much trade value does Fultz really have? Without a 3 point shot, he's probably a back end lottery pick, no?
     
  25. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Could be. Really depends on what the Spurs and Kawhi are looking for. Kawhi may have zero interest in going there and could kill any deal to a team he’s not interested in by saying he won’t re-sign. Or the Spurs could be looking for more immediate contributors. Phoenix could certainly put together an interesting package, something like Jackson, Bender, and a pick.

    I think the Celtics line up the best if they are willing to get Brown/Tatum and a pick. I wouldn’t trade Tatum but Brown and Sac pick would be tough for anyone to beat.
     
  26. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Am I the only one who wants no part of Kawhi in Boston?
     
  27. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    In absolute terms? I’m a bit leery of him but if this year was some weird hiccup for him, there is considerable upside. You’re talking a top 5 player right in his prime, which fits perfectly with the Kyrie/Hayward/Al window and who would provide a great option to deal with the Simmons/LeBron problem. But my red line is at Jaylen and pick. And even that would take some time for me to do given how valuable the Sac pick figures to be and how much Jaylen has improved.
     
  28. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    is this even slightly possible though? How could any team think that there is no long term concern about his shooting?
     
  29. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Clearly there would be concern but the question is how much. Do we really think that Fultz will never be able to shoot an NBA 3 at a decent clip? May be a gradual process but I’d bet that he gets back to where he was in college at some point. Definitely risk there, which is why the Celtics would have a distinct advantage over anyone else who goes after Kawhi. The Celtics can offer a talented young player with no real concerns and a top pick or two. Fultz may need a full season with noticeable improvement before he can be traded.

    Would SA do Fultz/Covington/#10? Perhaps. But they’ll probably push hard for Saric.
     
  30. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I don't think you watch the sixers much if you don't think they need a PNR guard.
    He's a very good fit for the roster, in theory, which assumes he can shoot.
    If not, obviously you are correct.

    JFC.
    I asked why you Celtics fans were so confident in the ft shooting being irrelevant vs his 3 point percentage, when people who have put up season like his have generally regressed in 3point percentage.
    This is an observation I asked for feedback on.

    The answer from the only person, who didn't take it as an insult to question this take, pointed out he had terrible free throw form and this season has retooled it and there's a considerable difference

    I was questioning why you guys all agreed to the same view when the pure numbers don't support it. Specifically as I had not watch brown enough to know if there was a mechanical change.

    With Fultz I'm simply saying I'm not going to assume he can't shoot ever again because of this weird issue. Given his shot has improved since they started taking it seriously and also that near every expert thinls he needs an off season to help fix it.

    Is there a guarantee? No but I was responding to someone who claimed he'd never shoot again

    I worded the brown stuff about as carefully as I could to not offend and still everyone just got upset.
    Here's history, why are you guys all ignoring it? There was an answer.
     
  31. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Jaylen probably will regress. I don't think anyone here believes he'll shoot close to .400 year in and year out. With that said, I think most people here are also confident he's going to be at least league average. 442 isn't a huge sample size, but it's not super small either.

    As far as FTs go, I think we are entering a new NBA where there will be a lot more Bruce Bowen type lines as far as shooting percentages are concerned. Fultz and Ball may be 2 of those guys. Jaylen Brown too. The 3 point shot is so much more prevalent than in years past so players are shooting it more and more at the expense of practicing FT shots.
     
  32. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    If Kawhi were merely disgruntled, and not hurt, I'd sign up for Brown+Sac. With the added uncertainty, however, I'm not sure I can pull the trigger: Andrew Bynum-type trades can set a franchise back years.

    I'd be down for a "disgruntled superstar trades" thread. Giannis actually finishes his contract the same year as Anthony Davis, since the Bucks, being the Bucks, only gave him a 4-year deal. I could easily see him demanding a trade after next year if the team's trajectory doesn't improve.
     
  33. Remagellan

    Remagellan Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    The Kawhi stuff really belongs in a Kawhi thread.

    I think both teams should be fearful of a Bynum type situation with him. He could be the thing that cements either of these franchises as the successors to “Team LeBron’s” ECF dominance, but they may also get there without taking the risk that he may done as a great player.

    Getting back on thread, I’ve been saying all season both on this board and around the city to doubters that I’m not giving up on a kid as young as Fultz is. I thought Kawhi also couldn’t shoot when he came into the league. Markelle is a young guy who had an injury and a hellish intro to the league, but he’s shown himself to be tougher than advertised. To me, the fact that he didn’t hang his head after being the freakish cause of JoJo’s injury tells me a lot about his once questioned mental toughness. He will work to get better, and I expect, will rediscover his stroke if that’s possible through reps.

    If you guys want to crow that he’ll never be worth Tatum and the pick they surrendered, take your bow and your presumed victory, but remember the question won’t really be resolved until we see which of our franchises, if either, gets to the Finals and wins a title in the near future.
     
  34. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    It doesn't belong in this thread, but you guys are ignoring the elephant in the room with regards to a Kawhi trade: the LA Lakers. That's the big time market he seeks and the Lakers can offer Ball or Ingram plus Kuzma and Hart and future picks to San Antonio. He'd be the second (or third star) to pair with Lebron and/or Paul George.
     
  35. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    That would come down to how much the Spurs value Ball, who looks like he might have serious issues shooting and finishing going forward. As far as picks go, the Lakers' picks would all be trash if they put together that superteam.

    But seriously, Kawhi/disgruntled star thread breakout please.
     
  36. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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    Fultz played himself out of the second team rotation with an ugly five minutes near end of first quarter. Missed all three shots in close, including an air ball from six feet. Plus, Wade torched him on offense before Brown got Fultz out of there.
    T.J. McConnell took Fultz's minutes in third quarter. Simmons has four fouls and is back in for the final quarter. Down 14. We have a series.
     
  37. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Down 4. We have a game
     
  38. benhogan

    benhogan self-effacing SoSH Member

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    Spot on.

    Fultz has yet to play important/high leverage minutes in his return. Once Spo puts J.Rich full court on him it will be lights out on Markelle for this series.

    I read Bleacher Report 2017 re-draft today and it had Fultz (#2) ahead of Tatum (#3). What a joke. Fultz looks nervous and unconfident, and he is still pushing his jumper. I'd take plenty of guys ahead of him in the 2017 draft.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2770321-re-drafting-the-2017-nba-draft-1st-round
     
    #1188 benhogan, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  39. Euclis20

    Euclis20 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    I've seen maybe a half dozen games since he came back. The Sixers are (smartly) not playing him with Simmons. Like, at all. If his shot comes back they will be fine together, but both he and Simmons are at their best with the ball in their hands, and in his best case scenario he's not likely to be as effective as Tatum at spreading the floor for Simmons/Embiid.

    Saying he's not as good a fit as Tatum doesn't mean he's not a good fit. It means Tatum would've been a perfect fit, and Fultz will have a better chance at reaching his full potential on a team that doesn't already have a superstar point guard who can't shoot.
     
  40. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I'm a Tatum fan and think that as of now, he's most likely to go down as the best player in his draft class, with the possibility of even the best in his rookie class (Hi Ben Simmons!). That said, Fultz (if he regains his shot) is the other guy who will challenge him). Fit is only an issue if Fultz cannot regain his shot, since NBA teams cannot give many minutes together to 2 non-shooters.

    Tatum's game grew by leaps and bounds from summer league to NBA season, in a way that wasn't readily obviously going to happen.

    Right now the deal looks terrible from Philly's perspective, but that is almost purely due to hindsight bias.
     
  41. Wilco's Last Fan

    Wilco's Last Fan Member SoSH Member

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    Yikes man, calm down - I'm not upset. I certainly didn't take your post as an insult to Jaylen Brown. You asked a valid question. And I'm a big Fultz fan and hope he becomes a great player, so there's no need to get your back up.

    My point is just that "I won't assume he can't shoot ever again" implies that Fultz has shot well before, when the only support for that notion is predicated on a single season of college, where his 3-point % was also coupled with a poor free-throw percentage. When you (validly) question whether Jaylen is actually a good shooter based on a relatively low 3PT%/FT% ratio, it's necessary to question whether Fultz ever was, either.
     
  42. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    That won't tell us anything either. The Sixers could easily make the finals in a few years with Fultz riding the bench playing 10-15 minutes a game while Tatum wins MVP.

    The Sixers future is riding on Embiid and Simmons far more than Fultz.
     
  43. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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  44. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Going to be an interest summer for this franchise, that's for sure. Fultz's value is so low right now that I can't imagine selling low on him makes much sense unless there is a belief that his shoulder/shooting issues will be career-defining.
     
  45. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    If I'm Danny, I'd buy low on Fultz.
     
  46. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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    I don't think Colangelo is ready to admit his mistake yet. In fact, if Rozier goes off again in the early stages of Game 2, Fultz may get a chance to cover him. Nobody else has shown they can guard Rozier. These are the playoffs and strange things can happen
     
  47. bankshot1

    bankshot1 Member SoSH Member

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    Was the original 76er thinking, to play Simmons and Fultz together in a 2-pg offense?
     
  48. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I’d be surprised if we see Markelle in Game 2. The Boston crowd will be merciless, which isn’t an issue for a veteran player, but could be for a kid like Fultz. The Philly crowd has been incredibly supportive of him so I could see him getting some minutes in Game 3 or 4.
     
  49. terrynever

    terrynever Member SoSH Member

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    Good point. Be interesting to see what defensive wrinkles Brown installs. Maybe the 76ers just need to play like a desperate team, even though that is not quite the case ... yet.
     
  50. benhogan

    benhogan self-effacing SoSH Member

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    Daniel "Scouts Honor" is a kook, but makes an interesting comment about Markelle hiding in the Northwest for a non-competitive Washington Huskie team.

    AND If Markelle only put up numbers when it was garbage time thats a big Red Flag.

     

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