Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?
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This kind of ignores when Fultz committed he was not as high a prospect and also that Washington was meant to be better but players like Dejonte Murry left early for the draft
I'm pretty sure there were stories saying Washington was in touch from before he was a big thing and he stayed loyal.
The mental weakness stuff is also harder to reconcile with his struggles with his coaches in high school and how he busted his ass to prove himself.
Dr. J wishes the Sixers had taken Tatum
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23394989/dr-j-thinks-boston-celtics-forward-jayson-tatum-no-1-draft
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23394989/dr-j-thinks-boston-celtics-forward-jayson-tatum-no-1-draft
To make it a true 1980 (already win the 1 for 3 swap) we need to win the "plus" -- Robert Parrish, or in this case, the Sacramento pick.
I scouted Tatum wrong man, Duke sucks.
To hear the sixers were committing to drafting Tatum at three ... Oi
He's just so good and (like Mitchell doing things he never showed in college - esp his speed) damn it.
The sixers need Fultz to bounce back (for sure possible) and get lucky on the sac pick to come out of this.
It's possible, Fultz bounces back and the swap costs a mid to late first. Even this is hardly a disaster for the Celtics. That's a mild win they get something for. That's the best case for the sixers.
Worst case Fultz is never the same and they lose a top 3 pick as well. It sort of speaks to how well set Hinkie left the setup, how many frickin teams can puke two top 3 picks and still have a real shot at being a contender.
I also would LOVE to know what Hinkie thought of the move. As I say I totally got it, Fultz was so legit in college and such a great fit.
But if they end up getting a free agent who can shoot off ball and run pick and roll then oops.
Then again they end up with Kawhi or PG then you can at least see the plan. They had moves to get a stud wing and needed a pull-up/ PNR handler and shooter.
Maybe they get a Bridges at 10 and he's great too.
To hear the sixers were committing to drafting Tatum at three ... Oi
He's just so good and (like Mitchell doing things he never showed in college - esp his speed) damn it.
The sixers need Fultz to bounce back (for sure possible) and get lucky on the sac pick to come out of this.
It's possible, Fultz bounces back and the swap costs a mid to late first. Even this is hardly a disaster for the Celtics. That's a mild win they get something for. That's the best case for the sixers.
Worst case Fultz is never the same and they lose a top 3 pick as well. It sort of speaks to how well set Hinkie left the setup, how many frickin teams can puke two top 3 picks and still have a real shot at being a contender.
I also would LOVE to know what Hinkie thought of the move. As I say I totally got it, Fultz was so legit in college and such a great fit.
But if they end up getting a free agent who can shoot off ball and run pick and roll then oops.
Then again they end up with Kawhi or PG then you can at least see the plan. They had moves to get a stud wing and needed a pull-up/ PNR handler and shooter.
Maybe they get a Bridges at 10 and he's great too.
Bridges would be a nice piece to add. Colangelo definitely has to hit on this pick because he’ll be picking in the 20s from here on out.
Fultz could be the equivalent of Darko on the early 2000s Pistons teams with Tatum playing the role of Melo
It is rather amazing. I'd love to see a recap of all the deals Hinkie did to drive this treasure trove of picks. What year did he start? Would also like to see his subsequent list of picks. Did he initially call it the process?
LondonSox can do this with more insight but here is my take. Hinkie, a hotshot analytics guy with Houston, arrived as Philly GM in time for the 2013 draft and traded Jrue Holiday to New Orleans for a 2014 Top 5 protected pick and Nerlens Noel. In the Draft, he chose Michael Carter-Williams, a point guard with shooting issues, with Philly's first-round pick.
At the 2014 trade deadline, Hinkie dealt off Evan Turner, Spencer Hawes and Lavoy Allen for five second-round picks and a fellow named Henry Sims. When the season ended, Hinkie traded his last remaining veteran, Thad Young, for Miami's top 10 protected pick in 2015. Also coming to Philly were Luc Mbah a Moute and Alex Shevey.
Hinkie did his best work at the 2014 NBA Draft, choosing injured Joel Embiid with the third pick and Croatia's Dario Saric with the 12th pick after a trade with Miami.
At the 2015 trade deadline, Hinkie sent Michael Carter-Williams packing, which raised a few eyebrows, and then he took center Jahlil Okafor with the third overall pick. Not his best moment.
During the 2015 offseason, Hinkie made a deal with Sacramento that allowed Philly to swap first-round picks in 2016 and 2017. The latter helped Philly get the third pick, which Hinkie's successor, Brian Colangelo, turned into Markelle Fultz.
Hinkie hit and missed on Embiid and Okafor. Who knows what he would have done with Sacramento's pick in the 2017 draft? Ownership with a nudge from the league, had pushed Sam out in favor of Colangelo. Officially, Hinkie resigned in April 2016. Philly won the Draft Lottery that year and chose Ben Simmons.
The 76ers still have Sacramento's first-round pick in 2019, thanks to Hinkie. They gave away Jrue Holliday, who is still a scoring guard making an impact in the playoffs.
Meanwhile, Colangelo's odd choice of Fultz with the top pick in the 2017 draft could determine his legacy in Philly.
I was curious too. Pretty good read from B/R on the phrase roots, not so much on the deals (tho that’s all on Wikipedia)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2729018-the-definitive-history-of-trust-the-process?share=other
People were even questioning it at the time due to his fit with Ben Simmons, not because he'd suck. It was an odd pick, not a bad pick.
Fultz could write his own history, too. The company line is he's only 19 and can be fixed.
I called the pick odd because of Fultz's one collegiate year with a losing team in the PAC-10. That raised more than a few eyebrows in Philly but since Fultz is from Maryland, and seems like a great kid, skeptical fans went along with it.
Seems like half of the lottery picks wash out or fail to live up to impossible expectations. Fultz has two or three years left to prove his rookie season was ruined by health issues, shooting problems and just by being 19 years old.
Pretty good summary, thanks for putting it together. Three corrections on this part though:
1 - The 76ers don't have the Sac '19 pick if it conveys to the Celtics instead of the Lakers pick this year.
2 - They didn't "give away" Jrue Holliday, he was traded for the #6 pick (Noel), as well as what ended up being the #8 pick in the following draft. They didn't draft well with either pick.
3 - Colangelo's choice of Fultz was far from odd given that was the consensus pick. Maybe the trade was odd, but not the pick.
Was Ben SImmons an odd pick too? His team didn't make the NCAA and I believe he skipped any other tournaments.
I’m on my phone but the final process, progress report by Hinkie was recently released. It’s his final report to the owners after it was decided that they part ways. It’s a very good read if you haven’t seen it. Say what you will about him but he’s sharp.
I definitely remember people here questioning how good Simmons really would be given his collegiate 'career'.
Definitely was not an odd pick. Plenty of disappointed reactions here after trading #1 last year.
My parents are in town and I'm going away for a few days etc but if people are interested when u have time in a while I can put more thoughts together.
The wow moment is truely understanding what he had when he took over and when he left.
It's not well understood just how bad the setup was. They had one really good player, but it should be remembered Jrue was injury prone and this year is really his first healthy season since the trade!
The Bynum trade had left the sixers with middling talent, no draft pick and they were boring. They played dull basketball with a prehistoric coach (Doug Collins) and hadn't been relevant since AI
The wow moment is truely understanding what he had when he took over and when he left.
It's not well understood just how bad the setup was. They had one really good player, but it should be remembered Jrue was injury prone and this year is really his first healthy season since the trade!
The Bynum trade had left the sixers with middling talent, no draft pick and they were boring. They played dull basketball with a prehistoric coach (Doug Collins) and hadn't been relevant since AI
Was it ever articulated by 76er management how Fultz and Simmons would play together?
I've asked on at least two occassions here (76ers don't return my calls) was a 2-PG offense planned? And if so who really was going to run the offense.
I've asked on at least two occassions here (76ers don't return my calls) was a 2-PG offense planned? And if so who really was going to run the offense.
Well, it's not the Sixers, but: https://www.theringer.com/2017/6/18/16076942/markelle-fultz-solves-phillys-ben-simmons-problem-c6b989782c29
I'm going to put this out there
Tatum will be better than Melo
Not just old Melo, either.
Linked is a preseason article by Tom Moore, who has covered the 76ers for 30 years and tends to mouth the company line. Written before Fultz's shot went MIA, Moore suggests a starting lineup of Embiid, Covington, Reddick, Simmons and Fultz. Saric coming in as sixth man.
As the season progressed, Brett Brown had to be diplomatic about Fultz, and often spoke about how Fultz's ball handling, penetration skills and passing would fit into what Simmons could do as a power forward next year.
Maybe next year, Saric comes off the bench? And Simmons is not the point guard. That would put a lot of pressure on Fultz.
http://www.mcall.com/sports/basketball/sixers/mc-sixers-column-moore---moore-calkins--sunday-column-on-the-sixers-20170715-story.html
The general idea was that Fultz’s shooting would allow him to play off the ball with Simmons and be a secondary ball handler. His mental/physical issues have put a lot of that thinking at risk. This really is going to be a fascinating situation, as there are so many angles at play here.
I would love to know what Fultz’s current trade value is around the league. Can’t be much at this point, which means Philly has to hold onto him and hope he improves but doing so may create a lot of distractions for a team that is close to being ready to compete for a title.
I would love to know what Fultz’s current trade value is around the league. Can’t be much at this point, which means Philly has to hold onto him and hope he improves but doing so may create a lot of distractions for a team that is close to being ready to compete for a title.
How close do you think they are? Celtics have exposed huge structural problem. Two No. 1 draft picks cannot shoot the ball effectively.
I do agree, 76ers have a fascinating situation to work out. Colangelo is not going to trade Fultz. He staked his rep on Fultz when he traded up to get him.
How far down the draft do you have to go until you find a team who would trade their pick 1:1 for Fultz?
I’d guess around 9. Since the consensus is the talent fall off around 8 perhaps there’s a deal to be made if someone in the 7-8 range likes Fultz. He’s a terrible fit for Philly who really just needs depth of quality players who can shoot and defend. It seems foolish to project Fultz as an above average shooter. If I’m Philly I’d probably move him for a pick in the 7/8 range.
I’d guess around 9. Since the consensus is the talent fall off around 8 perhaps there’s a deal to be made if someone in the 7-8 range likes Fultz. He’s a terrible fit for Philly who really just needs depth of quality players who can shoot and defend. It seems foolish to project Fultz as an above average shooter. If I’m Philly I’d probably move him for a pick in the 7/8 range.
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If Fultz was what everyone thought he was, he would fit in just fine with Simmons. Maybe not as well as what Tatum turned out to be, but just fine enough to make it work. There are two teams still in the playoffs with two point guards playing next to each other in Harden/Paul and Rondo/Jrue
A number of SoSHers, including myself, were Tatum all the way and opposed to Fultz. So, let's not pretend that Fultz was considered a guarantee around these parts.
He didn't say Fultz was considered a guarantee, he said it's revisionist history to say that Fultz to the Sixers was an "odd choice". Pointing to a couple of message board posters doesn't exactly counter that.
And for the record, searching your username for "Fultz" or "Tatum" doesn't yield any results prior to the draft, and doesn't pull up any posts expressing a preference between them.
I think they’ll be ready as soon as next year depending on what they do this summer with the cap space. If Colangelo swings a trade for Kawhi, which I think he should be all over, they vault right into contention. The #10 pick should also yield a valuable piece like potentially Mikal Bridges.
I know that once DA traded the pick the consensus around here was Tatum (there's a poll on this) but from the moment BOS won the #1 pick, almost all of us were on Fultz. http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-plan-for-the-1-er-3-overall-pick.19334/
Fultz was the consensus #1 pick, even though people were hesitant about him. People were hesitant about everyone and Fultz more than any other pick in the draft appeared to be able to score at all three levels.
Well 4 levels, if you count his over the head full court shots that went viral during draft build-up season.
I think one thing DA sensed about Fultz - and I don't know when it happened but I don't think it just had to do with UW - was that Fultz wasn't all that competitive.
edit: one example from Draft Express: "For all the questions about his competitiveness, Fultz is a worker, a self-made player, and a hoops junkie."
We were all in on Fultz because we all read the stuff that said it was pretty much a lock. Perhaps had we knew what Ainge knew that would not have been the case.
I hope he figures it out. Seems like a good kid. But eventually I’ll bet we find out exactly what Ainge was thinking.
I hope he figures it out. Seems like a good kid. But eventually I’ll bet we find out exactly what Ainge was thinking.
Sam Hinkie's final progress report on the process.
https://www.espn.com/pdf/2016/0406/nba_hinkie_redact.pdf
https://www.espn.com/pdf/2016/0406/nba_hinkie_redact.pdf
I wonder when, and if, GS will look to move Thompson. To me, he is the absolute best fit for PHI. Offers JJ Redick spacing but without the shitty defense.
I'll listen to Sprowl on anything he shows expertise on.
Of course, I'll also listen to him on subjects where I'm ostensibly expert because it's also worth it.
Basically--Sprowl thinks good.
That’s not what Bowman was saying. A lot of us did like the deal because we liked Tatum more than Fultz (including myself), but no one was questioning the fit of Fultz with Simmons.
NCAA Fultz was a good jumpshooter which you absolutely need with a non-shooter. And in the new pace & space era you need multiple shot creators, which Fultz provides. Absolutely no one expected Markelle to Fultz up his jumpshot.
Fultz still carries baby weight. He’s kinda pudgy IMO
edit kinda like Devers. Except Devers plays baseball
edit kinda like Devers. Except Devers plays baseball
My point was really that nobody to my knowledge consider Fultz to be an odd pick at the time. I was about as aggressively wrong as possible on Tatum, Fultz, and the trade generally (and happily so), but at the time, there was very little in the way of people saying Philly should take anyone but Fultz.
The consensus when the Sixers landed the third pick was that it was a bad draw for them, because it meant they would not be able to land the two players who were good fits for the team: Fultz or Ball.
The consensus when the Sixers landed the third pick was that it was a bad draw for them, because it meant they would not be able to land the two players who were good fits for the team: Fultz or Ball.