Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

[RetractableRoof]

I'd be curious to see a competent/respected nutritionist be given access to some of these athletes to show what they actually do right (and perhaps wrong). Not just one or two athletes, but maybe a generalized access over a period of time to 25 or so athletes in a given sport. And see what the nutritionist derives from first hand knowledge. Comparing the self promoters to the quietly impressive, to the ones that seem lacking in their approach. I think it would make for interesting reading (maybe it's already out there and I'm not aware). Obviously what a lineman needs for nutritional intake is going to differ from a WR, etc. What they consider what someone REALLY taking care of their body looks like.

I guess I'd be interested in the same for each of the varied disciplines of body treatment. Personal trainers, sleep experts, mental training as well for those that do it. I could be an interesting series. I've been intrigued at the sport science direction that Chip Kelly is advocating for and was disappointed that he didn't get to continue it at the pro level. Unfortunately there are competitive advantage issues preventing some of the access, but it would be cool to see behind the scenes with this stuff.

This training discussion has really gone off course from the Fulz thread, so I'll stop here I guess.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I wasn't lecturing or correcting anyone here. It's just been interesting to me how reputations get formed and what actually matters to athletic performance and what sportswriters and fans focus on. It was a world-at-large observation, not a SoSH one. Apologies for the confusion and detour.

I agree that you weren't lecturing, and that the point you were making was correct.

 

[Marciano490]

One more frolic - it's also fascinating what characteristics are and aren't associated with normal athleticism and what's now being trained.

You always hear about speed, power, explosiveness, etc. How fast, how high, how strong.

But, oftentimes it's the guy with the better reflexes, better hand eye coordination, better peripheral vision (or regular vision for hitters in baseball), that makes the difference. And now you're seeing and hearing more about training those traits. Lomachenko works with laser boards to hone his reflexes. Bonds had those cool eye training drills. I remember Larry Fitzgerald doing some really cutting edge stuff.

 

[RetractableRoof]

One more frolic - it's also fascinating what characteristics are and aren't associated with normal athleticism and what's now being trained.

You always hear about speed, power, explosiveness, etc. How fast, how high, how strong.

But, oftentimes it's the guy with the better reflexes, better hand eye coordination, better peripheral vision (or regular vision for hitters in baseball), that makes the difference. And now you're seeing and hearing more about training those traits. Lomachenko works with laser boards to hone his reflexes. Bonds had those cool eye training drills. I remember Larry Fitzgerald doing some really cutting edge stuff.

That's the stuff I like hearing/reading about - perhaps because it is less reported on?

 

[luckiestman]

Whatever trait GSP has that allows him to keep his work rate so high for so long would be my most desired trait. Then one punch ko power.

GSP probably uses EPO or something because it doesn’t make sense.

I root for the grinders. Hagler is my ideal boxer. In mma guys like Diaz, Maia, or even Jon Fitch.

Money Mayweather strikes me as way more skilled than people give him credit for. He isn’t some prime RJJ freak.

 

[Marciano490]

It's not as conducive to the narrative I guess. Sports sells these mythic figures. Size, brawn, speed. Nobody talks about Zeus' hand-eye coordination. But, you're right, Tim Lincecum was a ton more interesting than Clemens or Schilling, yet it's more fun to read about the big Texan with tree trunk legs.

Mayweather basically revolutionized defense in a sport that's thousands of years old. He had a ton of science and skill behind his technique. Again, just not as cool to gush over or as easy to explain during a telecast.

 

[Jimbodandy]

It's not as conducive to the narrative I guess. Sports sells these mythic figures. Size, brawn, speed. Nobody talks about Zeus' hand-eye coordination. But, you're right, Tim Lincecum was a ton more interesting than Clemens or Schilling, yet it's more fun to read about the big Texan with tree trunk legs.

Mayweather basically revolutionized defense in a sport that's thousands of years old. He had a ton of science and skill behind his technique. Again, just not as cool to gush over or as easy to explain during a telecast.

That's a great point. Pedroia is a good example of a guy with fantastic hand-eye. Long swing, but it doesn't matter.

My point from earlier is that attitude, discipline, and work ethic is the future. Belichick has spoken about prioritizing guys that "love football". That translates to me as "will drag his ass out of bed on days where he feels like a truck ran him over, and without needing to be yelled at". Or even more importantly, "will look at studying playbooks and watching film as a feature, not a bug."

Stevens and Ainge seem to want to get a feeling for the person. How will they face adversity? What kind of work ethic do they have? Certainly you can look at the championship that they won as an example of guys like K.G. and Allen who brought positive karma on some of those traits to the team.

As far as the Fultz tie-in goes, I'm thinking that all of the background that they did on him did not light up the scoreboard in that department. That may have jack shit to do with anything that's happening to him right now, but it might explain why Ainge felt comfortable going out on that limb in the first place and trading out of that spot.

 

[nighthob]

But, oftentimes it's the guy with the better reflexes, better hand eye coordination, better peripheral vision (or regular vision for hitters in baseball), that makes the difference. And now you're seeing and hearing more about training those traits. Lomachenko works with laser boards to hone his reflexes. Bonds had those cool eye training drills. I remember Larry Fitzgerald doing some really cutting edge stuff.

I like to say I developed mine drinking, and my reflexes are still pretty insane for a fifty something. (At the office Christmas party I caught my beer mid flight after someone accidentally knocked it off the bar.)

 

[Hagios]

I like to say I developed mine drinking, and my reflexes are still pretty insane for a fifty something. (At the office Christmas party I caught my beer mid flight after someone accidentally knocked it off the bar.)

You weren't a cold warrior were you?

 

[sezwho]

Mayweather basically revolutionized defense in a sport that's thousands of years old. He had a ton of science and skill behind his technique. Again, just not as cool to gush over or as easy to explain during a telecast.

Not to take a nothing away from Mayweather's greatness, but weren't the Philly shell (stance) and shoulder-roll (technique) used by fighters since the 60s? James Toney, Foreman, Norton even Jersey Joe Walcott used it. By most accounts Mayweather did it best and refined the technique, but its extremely difficult to execute both physically and mentally which gets right back to the work/skills debate. I barely qualify even to be a weekend warrior, but fwiw I tried it out a bit in some hands only drills in my muay thai classes...and got absolutely dismantled. You have to really rethink and reprogram 100% of what you are doing...lowering my lead hand in front of a dangerous fighter makes me feel like I'm covered in spiders

...and now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

[nighthob]

You weren't a cold warrior were you?

No, I just saw the person to my right turning out of the corner of my eye and instinctively reached out with my right hand into the path that the bottle would take falling from the bar.

Even I was shocked that I actually caught the damned thing. But, as we always say in my family, you have to stop alcohol abuse when you see it, and spilling Newcastle is absolutely alcohol abuse.

 

[jon abbey]

Good Fultz piece by Jason Concepcion in The Ringer today:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/1/9/16870108/markelle-fultz-sixers-shoulder-injury-mystery

 

[tims4wins]

Good stuff

 

[The Needler]

Lonzo Ball’s vision is remarkable, but will his jumper translate to the next level? Will his father be a distraction? (Answers: Thus far, not really, and no, respectively.)

I assume this was just poor editing, and the answer to the second question was meant to be yes.

 

[jon abbey]

I just took that as a joke, but yeah, a little strange.

 

[Strike4]

The possibility that the #1 draft pick got there because of a hot streak, saw his magic failing him and then tried on his own to make it come to life is an intriguing theory. At the same time it's really sad and it's so human - imagine trying to will yourself back to a hot streak at the NBA level. The fact that the author can make a direct comparison to his own career makes it hit home that much more.

 

[Bob420]

Fultz was solid in summer league and showed flashes. You would think it would take poor results for him to worry about regaining some hot streak that had disappeared. He was pretty much what everyone expected in those summer league games.

 

[DJnVa]

Nice article. Author is clearly a homer Celtics fan.

 

[InstaFace]

Good Fultz piece by Jason Concepcion in The Ringer today:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/1/9/16870108/markelle-fultz-sixers-shoulder-injury-mystery

It's a good recounting of the saga without driving his opinion too hard down your throat. And yet, this kinda stuck out awkwardly to me:

Fultz (and, I’m just now noticing that “Markelle Fultz” sounds like the name of a Prussian cavalry officer during the Napoleonic Wars) shot nearly 50 percent from the field...

I guess it's funny because his patrilineal ancestor was probably enslaved and given the name of his owner. Or something.

 

[Devizier]

I guess it's funny because his patrilineal ancestor was probably enslaved and given the name of his owner. Or something.

Unless he fought for Napoleon

 

[Spelunker]

Nice article. Author is clearly a homer Celtics fan.

Knicks, actually

 

[Sprowl]

I can't wait to see Markelle's handles back in action. He doesn't have quite the prestidigitary legerdemain of Kyrie Irving, but he's closer than any other ballhandler within recent memory.

But:

Theory 3: Impostor Syndrome/He Was Never a Good Shooter
This is the one I subscribe to. It’s similar to no. 2, but with important differences. Markelle’s college shooting figures of 47.6 percent overall and 41.3 percent from 3 overshadow an important fact: He shot only 64.9 percent from the free throw line. Free throw shooting—because the player is unguarded and shooting from a stationary position at the same spot on the floor every time—generally correlates well with a player’s actual shooting ability, and is a slightly better predictor of NBA 3-point shooting than college 3-point numbers.

Maybe his shooting sucks because his shooting motion sucks. I can sympathize, because my popcorn-chomping motion sucks.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Fultz has "surprise" in store for London fans. Guess it means he's playing.

edit: video of Fultz from Tuesday's practice is here: http://www.phillyvoice.com/markelle-fultz-injury-update-video-jump-shot-sixers-practice. Here's one of a pull-up, which looks something like what he used to do.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

Good to hear. Now hopefully Marcus eats his soul.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Here is a bunch of footage that is supposedly from last week's practice (posted 1-3). He doesn't look like a guy who is comfortable with his shot at the time.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Fultz has posted similar things before and not returned, but we’ll see. Maybe he’s announcing his retirement.

 

[benhogan]

Good to hear. Now hopefully Marcus eats his soul.

Fact...I want Marcus and Terry up underneath him, swiping, Markelle's handle will be rusty. If they foul Fultz, not bothered, send him to the FT line.

By the end of the game he'll be taking a detour to Vienna.

 

[joe dokes]

Fultz was solid in summer league and showed flashes. You would think it would take poor results for him to worry about regaining some hot streak that had disappeared. He was pretty much what everyone expected in those summer league games.

But maybe just "solid" wasn't what *he* expected.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Fultz has "surprise" in store for London fans. Guess it means he's playing.

edit: video of Fultz from Tuesday's practice is here: http://www.phillyvoice.com/markelle-fultz-injury-update-video-jump-shot-sixers-practice. Here's one of a pull-up, which looks something like what he used to do.

Honest question: has he made a basket in any of the practice videos out there since the summer? He's gotta be shooting no better than 20% unguarded. It's kind of jarring--you see these videos of Tatum draining shot after shot in practice, and Fultz clanging shots left and right.

 

[Bob420]

Maybe. Not sure what more he could expect. 20 ppg 3.5 reb 3 assists in 24 mpg while shooting 47% in the two Utah games before spraining his ankle in Las Vegas.

Whatever the cause, he is a mess.

 

[the moops]

I want Marcus and Terry up underneath him, swiping, Markelle's handle will be rusty. If they foul Fultz, not bothered, send him to the FT line.

I think this is exactly what you dont want to do. If anything, his handle and going by guys will be his go to move every single time, considering he doesn't want to shoot from outside 18 feet. And I doubt that his handle will be rusty anyway.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

And I doubt that his handle will be rusty anyway.

Agreed. It looks like he's done nothing but dribble for the last four months.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

I just want Marcus to give him a little pep talk- let him know that if he works real hard, he too can be an NBA guard who can't shoot. That should perk him up a bit.

 

[uk_sox_fan]

Nice article. Author is clearly a homer Celtics fan.

He's gone now. You can let it go...

 

[nighthob]

I assume this was just poor editing, and the answer to the second question was meant to be yes.

The best part was still this...

Jayson Tatum was born to score, but can he affect the game without the ball in his hands? (Answer: [Danny Ainge cackling.])

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Jayson Tatum was born to score, but can he affect the game without the ball in his hands?

Did that really concern anyone? Dude is 6'-8" with the athleticism to guard 2-3-4 and an absolutely beautiful jumpshot. To me he was pretty close to can't-miss as a productive player off-ball. If anything I'd think there were/are many more questions about his potential to be an elite creator (2.3 assists per 36 in college, 1.5 as a pro) than an elite finisher or defender. He'll obviously never be LeBron in that regard, but I've seen enough precocious flashes of handles, headiness and creativity to think he could get near the level of Paul George (4.2 ast/per 36, peak) or even KD (5.5 peak).

 

[the moops]

Dude is 6'-8" with the athleticism to guard 2-3-4

I think his ability to cover those positions competently was a definite unknown when he was drafted and one of the major concerns

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Did that really concern anyone? Dude is 6'-8" with the athleticism to guard 2-3-4 and an absolutely beautiful jumpshot. To me he was pretty close to can't-miss as a productive player off-ball. If anything I'd think there were/are many more questions about his potential to be an elite creator (2.3 assists per 36 in college, 1.5 as a pro) than an elite finisher or defender. He'll obviously never be LeBron in that regard, but I've seen enough precocious flashes of handles, headiness and creativity to think he could get near the level of Paul George (4.2 ast/per 36, peak) or even KD (5.5 peak).

Here's one example: "He’s developing as a passer but isn’t a playmaker with the ball in his hands, and if he doesn’t work on defense, it’s hard to see how he’ll impact the game when he isn’t shooting the ball. Tatum will have to expand his game or risk being branded a one-dimensional scoring specialist."

Cite.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Did that really concern anyone? Dude is 6'-8" with the athleticism to guard 2-3-4 and an absolutely beautiful jumpshot. To me he was pretty close to can't-miss as a productive player off-ball.

Theory 3: Impostor Syndrome/He Was Never a Good Shooter

This is the one I subscribe to. It’s similar to no. 2, but with important differences. Markelle’s college shooting figures of 47.6 percent overall and 41.3 percent from 3 overshadow an important fact: He shot only 64.9 percent from the free throw line. Free throw shooting—because the player is unguarded and shooting from a stationary position at the same spot on the floor every time—generally correlates well with a player’s actual shooting ability, and is a slightly better predictor of NBA 3-point shooting than college 3-point numbers.

Maybe his shooting sucks because his shooting motion sucks. I can sympathize, because my popcorn-chomping motion sucks.

Tatum had a "beautiful jumpshot" at Duke while connecting at less than 35% while Fultz sucks at shooting as he hit over 41%. Love it!!

The question I had on Fultz was his ability to explode past defenders as he didn't show that extra gear against most of the good athletic defenders he faced. What made him so lethal WAS his ability to be a deadly shooter from both behind the arc and in the 15-17 foot range off the dribble. Injury or Yips.....I don't give a shit. Everything about Fultz jump shot last year was positive......balance, soft arc, rotation, results. This isn't the same player that was at Washington last year. I had concerns about him and he was in my top tier but certainly not head and shoulders above everyone else......but those concerns had nothing to do with his shooting.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Tatum had a "beautiful jumpshot" at Duke while connecting at less than 35%.

And 85% from the stripe (118-139), which is fairly ridiculous for an 18 y.o., and as your linked article notes, typically more predictive of pro shooting chops than 3fg%.

And either way, my assessment was aesthetic: his shooting form looked (and looks) great.

I wasn't weighing in one way or the other on the shooting ability of Fultz (which I know isn't in the spirit of this thread — sorry!)

 

[HomeRunBaker]

And 85% from the stripe (118-139), which is fairly ridiculous for an 18 y.o., and as your linked article notes, typically more predictive of pro shooting chops than 3fg%.

And either way, my assessment was aesthetic: his shooting form looked (and looks) great.

I wasn't weighing in one way or the other on the shooting ability of Fultz (which I know isn't in the spirit of this thread — sorry!)

I certainly don't disagree with good FT% shooting being a positive indicator for future shooting growth. My issue is, and always has been, reverting to poor/avg FT% as a negative indicator when the player already has good/excellent 3-point % numbers. Also, to look at the freshman season FT% of an 18-year old kid is a sample size issue. I'm guessing the large majority make pretty good FT% leaps in the following season which to me is the most important number to look at......the gain from year one to year two. Paul Pierce barely broke 60% at a freshman and took it to 70% his soph year. That is a very positive development which isn't afforded the opportunity with one and dones.

Maybe in Fultz' case his Yips date back to last season at the FT line when he had inconsistent apex on his FT's which were clearly a problem for him. When he was moving off the dribble and spotting up he had no such struggles.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Don't forget that Tatum changed his shooting mechanics twice I believe.

There was the first tweak in January where he was hitting 29.5% of his 3s; after the adjustment (until the time of this article which pointed it out), he hit over 40%.

He then further tweaked his shot over the summer to its current form. https://www.libertyballers.com/2017/5/23/15681704/video-jayson-tatum-jump-shot-duke-blue-devils-josh-jackson-kansas-philadelphia-76ers-nba-draft-2017

Hanlen must be great at what he does.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I certainly don't disagree with good FT% shooting being a positive indicator for future shooting growth. My issue is, and always has been, reverting to poor/avg FT% as a negative indicator when the player already has good/excellent 3-point % numbers. Also, to look at the freshman season FT% of an 18-year old kid is a sample size issue. I'm guessing the large majority make pretty good FT% leaps in the following season which to me is the most important number to look at......the gain from year one to year two. Paul Pierce barely broke 60% at a freshman and took it to 70% his soph year. That is a very positive development which isn't afforded the opportunity with one and dones.

Maybe in Fultz' case his Yips date back to last season at the FT line when he had inconsistent apex on his FT's which were clearly a problem for him. When he was moving off the dribble and spotting up he had no such struggles.

I've always thought Fultz's mechanics off the dribble were better than his catch-and-shoot. Fultz's mechanics aren't terrible, but they aren't JT or Kyrie either. Here's a breakdown from this summer when the entire fiasco started.

 

[DJnVa]

I certainly don't disagree with good FT% shooting being a positive indicator for future shooting growth. My issue is, and always has been, reverting to poor/avg FT% as a negative indicator when the player already has good/excellent 3-point % numbers.

At what point does 3-point shooting percentage stabilize is it in more or less attempts than he had in 1 season in college?

 

[Bosox1528]

Tatum had a "beautiful jumpshot" at Duke while connecting at less than 35% while Fultz sucks at shooting as he hit over 41%. Love it!!

The question I had on Fultz was his ability to explode past defenders as he didn't show that extra gear against most of the good athletic defenders he faced. What made him so lethal WAS his ability to be a deadly shooter from both behind the arc and in the 15-17 foot range off the dribble. Injury or Yips.....I don't give a shit. Everything about Fultz jump shot last year was positive......balance, soft arc, rotation, results. This isn't the same player that was at Washington last year. I had concerns about him and he was in my top tier but certainly not head and shoulders above everyone else......but those concerns had nothing to do with his shooting.

Josh Jackson shot a better 3P% than Tatum in college. Historically, though, FT% is a better predictor of NBA shooting ability

 

[HomeRunBaker]

At what point does 3-point shooting percentage stabilize is it in more or less attempts than he had in 1 season in college?

For a young player not already elite I need to see a player react to this first offseason at ANY level be it his sophomore season of college or his second year in the NBA......or the next level of second year as a full-time NBA player if he's not getting regular minutes (The Spencer Dinwiddie Project). There should be noticeable if not massive growth in a player during that second year.......and if there isn't then we have a problem Houston. This can be in shooting, physical development (which can give you clues about work ethic/commitment), and overall growth as a player which we commonly refer to as "allowing the game to slow down."

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Josh Jackson shot a better 3P% than Tatum in college. Historically, though, FT% is a better predictor of NBA shooting ability

One freshman season has shown to be an accurate predictor......for how long? This is such a small sample with one and dones being so new. Looking back over the decades you wouldn't be including those draftable players into this group of poor FT shooters as they most likely improved from their freshman seasons.

Using one freshman season, Paul Pierce would not project well following his 60% FT shooting......but when he was drafted we had data showing improvement to 71% as a soph and 74% as a junior. Taht is quite a difference and to me the most important number is the upward graph. There isn't enough data at this stage of their careers of 30-35 games to make any projections based on those numbers being poor or average. Obviously, it is VERY promising for Tatum to have shot his FT so well as a freshman.

 

[JCizzle]

For a young player not already elite I need to see a player react to this first offseason at ANY level be it his sophomore season of college or his second year in the NBA......or the next level of second year as a full-time NBA player if he's not getting regular minutes (The Spencer Dinwiddie Project). There should be noticeable if not massive growth in a player during that second year.......and if there isn't then we have a problem Houston. This can be in shooting, physical development (which can give you clues about work ethic/commitment), and overall growth as a player which we commonly refer to as "allowing the game to slow down."

Probably not the right topic, but has Brown sufficiently checked that box for you so far into his second year?

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Probably not the right topic, but has Brown sufficiently checked that box for you so far into his second year?

Brown is a great example of utilizing traditional scouting along with stats. 65% from the line as a college freshman to me is a decent baseline starting point for a great athlete. As stated, the most important factor is what his second year brings which in todays one and done we don't have the opportunity to see with Brown. Many here responded to his 29% 3-point accuracy at Cal as "He can't shoot!" or things of that nature. What I saw, and stated this at the time, was no.....Jaylen CAN absolutely shoot while exhibited excellent mechanics and his percentages were a result of several factors such as terrible spacing in an inefficient offense, him being asked to create when opponents are sending 2 and 3 defenders at him and/or matchup zones, etc. We've been over this in his draft thread.

So Jaylen going from a 34% 3-point shooter to 39% his second year is encouraging using my "First offseason" rule of growth but as far as this specific player goes I very much expected this to occur. He has struggled at the line dropping from 68% to 56% this year but a small sample of 100 attempts......hopefully this doesn't lead to the yips for him.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

This article is pretty funny (unintentionally, I'm sure).

Fultz elated to have chemistry with his teammates again.

“Every day, I come in and try to give it my all,” Fultz said Wednesday during his first media availability with beat writers since being sidelined Oct. 24. “It’s good to be out there and have the chemistry with my teammates, again. Just be able to interact with them. Be a competitor again, which I am.”

For the 19-year-old, the best part of the scrimmages is being able to compete. His goal is to push his teammates every day.

“I feel like I can push each and every one of these guys to their highest potential,” he said. “So I just want to go out there and make them better.”

That’s something Fultz tried to do even when he wasn’t practicing.

The former Washington standout said he would act like a coach during games. Fultz spoke up whenever teammates weren’t giving their all or when he observed something. But now, he’s doing it again as their teammate in practice.
​

PHI didn't realize that they were actually drafting a coach, not a player.