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Markelle Fultz: Future star or vaporware?

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by PedroKsBambino, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. DannyDarwinism

    DannyDarwinism Member SoSH Member

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    And take this with the requisite grain of salt, but man, his body language looks terrible in all of these videos. He took some heat for poor body language at Washington, but he really looks despondent now.
     
  2. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    It's bad but it's also 4 seconds. His shot still has that hitch/delay or whatever it is to it.
     
  3. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    Should someone his height be releasing the ball that low? Looks like he's shooting from his chest and most anyone could block it.
     
  4. DannyDarwinism

    DannyDarwinism Member SoSH Member

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    This is a pretty typical example of his jumper in college- much higher release, and much smoother motion:

     
  5. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    So what was the surprise?
     
  6. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    Jeeze, not great. I hope he can figure it out.
     
  7. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    That he was scout team player of the week?
     
  8. leetinsley38

    leetinsley38 Member SoSH Member

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    You cannot explain those videos away at this point. He has the yips.
     
  9. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

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    I feel bad for the kid. Imagine being so good at something that everyone decides you should be the first person picked out of all the people in the world your age. Then imagine that you can't get out of your own head enough to even practice normally. I had the yips playing baseball in high school and that was embarrassing enough when I was sailing 50-foot throws from center over the second basemen's head on a single. I know people will say that he's getting paid and that we shouldn't feel sorry for a professional athlete, but man, as a person, that shit must just eat through every fiber of self-worth you have with so much of your identity being tied up in the game. Yikes.
     
  10. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    If Philly offered Fultz for the LA/Sac pick right now, would you take it? I think it’s a pretty tough call at this point.
     
  11. Bosox1528

    Bosox1528 lurker

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    Tough call? There's no way in hell I take that offer. Fultz is Rick Ankiel at this point
     
  12. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Small sample but...holy shit. That form is just awful. If he ever plays a game this decade, dude is going to get Rondo treatment times infinity.
     
  13. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    He’s a young kid, odds are he will get over this and be ok. But he might not, or, if he does, it might be a recurring issue. I’d probably decline the trade, especially given he’s wasted a year of his deal.
     
  14. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I can understand FT yips. I can understand 3pt yips in games. I can’t understand what he’s going through right now. He’s messing with his shot like it’s a golf swing. Shooting a basketball just ain’t that complicated.
     
  15. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I’d love to know what this feels like and why it’s so difficult to spin out of it. The whole concept seems really bizarre to me, especially for the pros that go through it.
     
  16. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    If the LA pick conveys I might consider returning it for Fultz and the Sacramento 2019 pick. Might.
     
  17. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This.

    I understand the interest in this story because Fultz's absence and the mystery around him is a big deal in basketball circles. I also get the interest from C's fans given that, absent the trade, he was the obvious choice for Boston at number one.

    However this is just a kid and if you believe the stories published about him leading up to the draft, he is a hard worker, devoted to his family and comes off as humble. Its one thing to enjoy schadenfreude when some arrogant person stumbles but its entirely another when its a young kid who has a gift and suddenly loses it. I know the Sixers are competition for the Celtics but I hope this kid comes back from whatever is bothering him and has a successful NBA career.
     
  18. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    I’m truly worried about this young guy every time I’ve seen him shoot since the preseason. This shit just ain’t right. He was fine in summer league. What happened?
     
  19. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    This goes back several pages but unless there were multiple doctors at a nationally renowned shoulder center involved in a scheme to cover up the yips Fultz did have a shoulder injury at one time (maybe he still does). If you believe in the elaborate scheme then you believe fully in the yips only.

    So it's....

    A. Shoulder Injury
    B. Yips
    C. Combination of A and B

    I'm in the camp of C. His current shot isn't remotely close to what we all saw last winter.
     
  20. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe he has a little Derrick Rose in him, but to a lesser extent. The injury may be getting to his head.
     
  21. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    Good analogy. His shot is something like Toger Woods' golf swing.
     
  22. Kliq

    Kliq Member SoSH Member

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    Tough call? Even if Fultz turns out to be the player everyone thought he would be, I still think he is a worse prospect than Bagley/Ayton/Bamba/Young. Danny should be laughing all the way to the bank with what he did in that trade.
     
  23. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    Bro I hope so, but look at that shot. This is so bad it almost seems like a troll job. Maybe Fultz is a black Andy Kaufman. That would be hilarious, but sadly I don’t think that is what is going on.


    Can he put his arms above his head? If not, why is he on the floor. If he can, why is he shooting like that. Dude is shooting like John McCain out there.

    Why does no Philly reporter have an accurate timeline on this? We watched summer league opener. The kid looked great. That little spin move was money.

    Ok, he hurt his ankle, fine.

    Then what?

    He forgot how to shoot? He was injured and tried to work around it? That’s ridiculous.

    Has anybody asked Fultz why is shooting like this? Like straight up shown him side by side video and asked him what is going on.
     
  24. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

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    When I was in 9th grade, I had a pretty solid arm for a kid that age. I wasn’t throwing gas, but I could touch the low-70s and had that classic LH curveball that I could spot to both sides of the plate ever since I figured out in 5th grade that topspin made the ball dip. I was fast as hell (I ended my baseball career having never been thrown out stealing, and I tried to steal a lot) so when I didn’t pitch, I played CF, and I was launching 200 foot throws from the OF with no problem that we’re typically right on the money. I remember being at one of those spring showcases with a bunch of HS seniors and the catcher overthrew second base on a steal and I nailed the guy at third when he tried to advance. He had no idea what the hell happened and how I got the ball in so quickly.

    That summer, I had a game where I was playing center and there was a little bloop single over the SS head. I ran in, grabbed the ball, and promptly threw it ten feet over the 2B’s head, where the runner advanced to third because of how bad the throw was and where it ended up. From there on, I thought about throwing over a guy’s head on every throw where I had time to think.

    If I had to go in a gap and hit a cutoff heading for third or home, I’d just wind up and unload, but little singles fucked with me like nothing else. I started short-arming the ball warming up, which led to some nasty shoulder problems (muscle imbalance?), to the point where I can barely toss more than 120 feet now and not for very long.

    Why do yips happen? Fuck if I know. I’ve had anxiety in other parts of life so maybe this was just the first presentation of it. I was never going to be a pro, but I had enough talent to make it as at least a low-level college player, but I couldn’t even try out because who wants to see a kid who can’t even warm up normally?

    So when I see Fultz doing this stuff, I know exactly where he’s at. Do I hope he comes back? Hell yeah, I love seeing good talent ball out. But man, this shit will literally take what you were best at and make you question all this crap forever.
     
    #774 IdiotKicker, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  25. uk_sox_fan

    uk_sox_fan Member SoSH Member

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    Didn't I see you the other night at this roadside bar? I was walking in, you were walking out...
     
  26. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, I think I'm going down to the well tonight, gonna drink til I get my fill.
     
  27. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    And I hope when I get old I don't sit around posting about it.......but I probably will.


    I'm guilty of this as well at times but what fun are life experiences if they aren't shared. Thanks for the post.
     
  28. slamminsammya

    slamminsammya Member SoSH Member

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    The experience of having the yips is unlike anything I have ever experienced. It's like a combination of panic, dread, and a crushing certainty of failure and loss of control leading up to something you had once mastered totally unconsciously.

    It is terrible and I wish it upon no one.
     
  29. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    I'm not a sports psychologist, and yips weren't really a thing in any sport I ever played, but shouldn't he just be far, far out of the spotlight for awhile? Like take two months off, then start just shooting around his old high school gym by himself? I can't imagine being out there on film with an audience and other players around is any good for him right now.
     
  30. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

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    I think that's pretty much what they did for the fall. Are there any examples of players who actually got over a meaningful case of the yips though? All the baseball ones I know (Ankiel, Knoblauch, Blass) either switched positions or just gave up. You can't really do the former in basketball.
     
  31. JHS

    JHS lurker

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    2
  32. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    As IK said, that's what they tried to do but at this point, the longer it goes on, the more people are going to openly speculate. For instance: http://www.nj.com/sixers/index.ssf/2018/01/nba_scout_on_sixers_markelle_fultz_im_like_what_th.html

    And from that article, here's some footage from Fultz practicing in London. It's so sad.

     
  33. In my lifetime

    In my lifetime Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, some examples of players who got over the yips include RS catchers, Jarrod Saltalamacchia and perhaps even Swihart.
    Nick Folk is another who comes to mind.

    As said by Nietzsche: “Blessed are the forgetful, for they get the better even of their blunders.”
     
    #783 In my lifetime, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  34. Kenny F'ing Powers

    Kenny F'ing Powers posts 18% useful shit Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    The yips are like an anxiety attack for that one particular action. Being away from it for months won't change his mindset the very first time he goes to shoot a basketball. Itll be there again.

    Part of me was hoping the "shoulder injury" was a ruse by the team for his benefit. If he thought that was the issue, they could use it like a placebo to keep him out of his head and away from the yips.

    "Yeah, kid, you have this unique shoulder issue that you may not even notice. It's an imbalance that's messing up your mechanics. Let us work on it while we readjust your shot!"

    The other real possibility is that he has one distinct shooting method when shooting solo, but it all changes when he gets around any one else. This actually happened with me with basketball. I suck at basketball. Always have. I was tall, athletic...but always just looked awkward playing. Shooting, dribbling, layups, you name it.

    In college, I wanted to overcome the awkward, so I'd get up every day in the summer and practice in the empty college gym for 3-4 hours at a whack. Working on my crossover, between the legs cross over, jumpers, layups...Everything. Full speed. I stopped lifting weights and focused only on basketball (and weed) for several hours a day, which brought me from 215lb to about 182lb over a few months.

    One day, one of the guys i lived with that played for the basketball team had come up to grab something out of the farside of the gym. I never knew he was there. He and I played ball plenty together, so he knew how awkward I was on the court. He walked over and got my attention, and he looked stunned. He told me he couldnt believe how smooth i looked with the ball in my hand. Said hed been watching me from the other side of the gym for 20 minutes, trying to figure out who I was. Told me, in fact, that i needed to tryout for the team next season. Scoring was never an issue, it just always looked so awkward, I didn't want to submit myself to the exposure.

    I was so damn happy. The months and hours of hard work paid off! We shot some hoops and talked for a bit. Messing around, I drove the lane and put up an easy layup. My buddy looked at me confused. "Nah, man. Do it the way you were doing it a few minutes ago." I honestly thought I was.

    As it turns out, when I was just fucking around by myself - or in this case, thought I was my by myself - I was out of my own head. Focused on my breathing, the release off my hand, the height on my jumper... The second any other person showed up...it was just gone. Reverted back to the old ways. Some kind of self-conscious, subconscious tick. The fear of looking akward with the ball made me awkward with the ball.

    Never was able to really get over it. My friend just couldn't fathom it. For the longest time, neither could I. But it was certainly a thing. For this kids sake, I'm really, really hoping it's not something similar. But seeing the awkward release, the despondent look...I recognize that shit.
     
  35. sezwho

    sezwho Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, thanks I enjoyed reading as well. I would actually consider yanking Fultz for a full shot rebuild from the stance up, and under strict management by a pro. Not sure how this aligns with the sports psychology, but I would think engaging a new and different neural pathway (or as much as possible) might avoid the yips, and his shot is already a dumpster fire.
     
  36. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Thanks for sharing those experiences (and the article). It’s a hard thing to get my head around, even as someone with pretty heavy generalized anxiety.
     
  37. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    It doesn't always affect their career in a meaningful way either though. Jon Lester has the yips throwing to 1st base but can manage to get by. I'm sure there are probably a few examples of NBA players at the FT line too but usually that's corrected quickly.
     
  38. Fishy1

    Fishy1 Member SoSH Member

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    This is a great anecdote. Thanks for sharing. A lack of confidence is positively crippling. I got the yips in high school throwing from third base to first. I would sail it every time. I just knew there was no way it was going to go right, any time I touched the ball. Analysis is a killer in any activity or sport where you're supposed to perform intuitively.

    This is dorky, but the only sport I've had any success on the field with was club/collegiate Ultimate, and to get myself to play well, I just told myself I was the best player on the field. I knew it was a lie, but for the duration of a point, I could convince myself it was true. I remember understanding exactly what Joe Flacco meant when he said he thought of himself as the best quarterback in the league. How could you have any success otherwise?
     
  39. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    For me -- the yips always manifested in tennis. I once blew three consecutive service games entirely by double-faulting. Back then the yips begins with this little feeling. "Uh oh". Then "fuck, just do this right god damnit". You try to force your body into doing what you want. You're *thinking* about what you need to do. And then it's all downhill from there.

    These days, I'm nowhere near a competitive player but the yips are gone. That's not to say that I don't double-fault but it was the pressure of (of all things!) potentially winning that caused me to go into a death spiral.
     
    #789 Devizier, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  40. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. A. SPEEDBALL.
     
  41. shaggydog2000

    shaggydog2000 Member SoSH Member

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    I believe it is a mixture of heroin and cocaine.
     
  42. maufman

    maufman Dope Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    That will make you look like a fool, boy.
     
  43. Jed Zeppelin

    Jed Zeppelin Member SoSH Member

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    Before my eyes went to shit and local politics would have left me riding the pine in favor of the town coach's kid's buddies, I was basically the teenaged Chuck Knoblauch. Under the gun I could turn two better than anyone but every routine grounder was a mental adventure. As a second baseman!

    Oh well, I'm an ace centerfielder for the company softball team now. Still can't play infield. Maybe Fultz can be strictly a post player.
     
  44. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Sure, if you could guarantee the pick conveys or Sac is top 5 next year, but I’m not sold on either happening.
     
  45. m0ckduck

    m0ckduck Member SoSH Member

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    Nick Anderson and free throws to mind. After the 95 Finals debacle where he missed four straight to blow the game, he was fine the next year... then suddenly plummeted to 40% the following season... then suddenly got it back again late the following year IIRC. That was a weird one, as far as the yips go.
     
  46. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    According to Anderson in the must-see 30-for-30 documentary This Magic Moment, (paraphrasing) the dog in him never really regained its bite after that game, even if he eventually refound the FT stroke. Some great, candid insights from him, Shaq, Penny, Dennis Scott et al. on that budding perennial champion that never was.
     
  47. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Hang on... the yips wrecked your throwing shoulder... so you ended up being a placekicker? I'm not sure whether to call that impressive fortitude or being a glutton for punishment.
     
  48. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    Complete fantasy, but yes, of course you would trade the LAL/SAC pick for Fultz. What would we peg the odds that the pick is a 2-5 pick in 18 or 19? I think Lakers eek out enough wins that they sit in the 6 or 7 spot this year. And SAC pick next year? Who the hell knows.
     
  49. benhogan

    benhogan self-effacing SoSH Member

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  50. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

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    More that I was used to sailing balls over the crossbar in soccer so I tried to turn a weakness into a strength.
     

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