Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

HomeRunBaker

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The saga continues. Conditioning-wise "he looks like he hasn't played basketball in a while", is not an encouraging sign for a guy who has all the means and incentive to be in great condition. And apparently it's to the point where he needs to improve conditioning, but actually has to be held out of conditioning drills due to poor conditioning?
I don't think Fultz or the Sixers particularly care if he's in game shape as far as conditioning as both sides know that he isn't close to actually playing in a game. I wouldn't read this as "poor" conditioning only in relation to "game" conditioning which really is the least of his problems right now. Also.........

Also, on Tuesday Fultz did an interview with Caron Butler, with whom he shares an agent, but apparently he set it up without the knowledge of the Sixers. Fultz hasn't been made available to local media since the beginning of the season.
The Needler addressed this in the prior post.

* Edited to confirm The Needler's assertion.
 
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The Needler

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I believe it's injured players who are full participants at practice. Markelle has not been made available once a week afaik.

During the Sixers’ home game against the Wizards, Fultz did an in-game interview with Caron Butler that aired on TNT. This ruffled the feathers of local media (including yours truly), because Fultz had not been made available to the media since being shut down with a shoulder injury in October. Teams are not required to make players available to media if they are not full participants in practice.

The Sixers declined to make Fultz available to the local media after the Sixers game, saying that Fultz, the No. 1 overall draft pick last year who has still yet to be a full participant in practice, set up the TNT interview without the knowledge of the Sixers’ communication staff, because Fultz and Butler share the same agent, Raymond Brothers.
 

cheech13

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Didn't they already quietly announce that Fultz probably wouldn't return this year or am I misremembering?
 

DannyDarwinism

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Its pretty obviously BS. Players who are full participants at practice have to be made available to the media. He pulls him out of conditioning because then he won't be a full participant.
Ah, I see. Thanks.

I was curious to check so I just googled "Futlz media available full participant", and in addition to confirming what you said, this article came up: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/sixers-markelle-fultz-brett-brown-espn-20180129.html

Basically Fultz was pissed when Brown said he was having "psychosomatic effects", and Fultz tweeted "You really can't trust no one!", and then Brown claimed he was completely misquoted. That's a pretty strange thing to misquote. "Psychosomatic? No, no, I was, um... talking about our new ISO schematic. Yeah."
 

DJnVa

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Didn't they already quietly announce that Fultz probably wouldn't return this year or am I misremembering?
I'm pretty sure no one has announced that yet. There was some talk here about it.
 

Reverend

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Its pretty obviously BS. Players who are full participants at practice have to be made available to the media. He pulls him out of conditioning because then he won't be a full participant.
This is the only coherent thing I’ve heard of them doing thus far.

Thanks for the insight, by the way—it’s nice to have at least one piece of the puzzle.
 

DannyDarwinism

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His current range is "within the paint"- Theo Ratliff makes his return to Philly!

I wonder if there comes a point where they throw him out there for a low stakes road game against the Kings, tell him to gun it up, and just hope the game flow kicks his muscle memory back into gear.
 

amfox1

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[URL='https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA']Derek Bodner‏ @DerekBodnerNBA 3m3 minutes ago[/URL]
Colangelo on Fultz: "It was a breakdown in muscle function and coordination...There have been some limitations for some time and he's getting through it. Again, there's a long recovery. It's taken probably longer than anyone had hoped or imagined."


Derek Bodner‏@DerekBodnerNBA 11m11 minutes ago
Colangelo: "We hope to see [Fultz] this year. If not, we will wait until he's ready to participate, and help, and put him in a position to succeed. That's going to be a determination that's made at some point in the future."
 

DJnVa

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How can they not ask him "Was shoulder hurt BEFORE you changed your shot?"
 

Leather

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Gosh what a mess. It's like Greg Oden all over again, except even stranger.
 

djbayko

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Jonathan Wasserman‏ @NBADraftWass 48m48 minutes ago
With Fultz and his jumper, it's like forgetting how to ride a bike. And you're just not supposed to forget how to ride a bike.
Before I saw this post, my reaction to those notes from Colangelo was...

I haven't been out on the basketball court in years, and I can guarantee you that if I picked up a ball today shooting hoops would be exactly like riding a bike. The lies are making it almost worse, although I suppose they can't really come out and say "it's all in his head".
 
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Ed Hillel

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None of this makes sense. If it’s a shoulder injury, why not just let it heal so he can shoot normally? Instead, he’s supposed to use a different stroke through pain and injury? Or is his shoulder somehow permanently fucked at age 20?

I’m still guessing the yips.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Unless you count Space Jam, there is no NBA comparison to what we're seeing with Fultz, at least none that I'm aware of.
 

In my lifetime

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None of this makes sense. If it’s a shoulder injury, why not just let it heal so he can shoot normally? Instead, he’s supposed to use a different stroke through pain and injury? Or is his shoulder somehow permanently fucked at age 20?

I’m still guessing the yips.
Of course, what shoulder injury goes away when you shoot a turn around instead of sitting at the free throw line thinking about your mechanics?
 

Reverend

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So how long does it take to build a lifetime worth of muscle memory, anyway?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Isn't it more like Zach Greinke or (shudder to think) Dimitrius Underwood?

A mess is right though.
Don’t think any of the three apply, at least via mechanism if in fact outcome.

You have Oden with injury derailment - physically couldn’t play.
You have Greinke with social anxiety disorder - literally afraid to be in front of people.
You have Underwood with bipolar - complete mental break from reality.

This is seemingly Steve Blass/Steve Sax/Chuck Knoblauch/Rick Ankiel/Chuck Hayes territory. The yips.
 

mauf

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Isn't it more like Zach Greinke or (shudder to think) Dimitrius Underwood?

A mess is right though.
Greinke’s medical condition was much more serious than Fultz’s appears to be, but he was always money when he stepped on a pitcher’s mound. He was just so wracked with anxiety that he couldn’t function; getting out of bed and putting your clothes on is sort of a precondition to pitching. (Also, I think people were late spotting Greinke’s problem because he had sort of a Nuke LaLoosh vibe going even on a normal day — some of the early warning signs were likely dismissed as nothing more than Greinke’s usual eccentricity.)
 

ishmael

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This is seemingly Steve Blass/Steve Sax/Chuck Knoblauch/Rick Ankiel/Chuck Hayes territory. The yips.
Sax and Hayes are the only guys on this list that ever managed to recover. Knoblauch and Ankiel managed to salvage their careers by switching positions, but skipping free throws isn't an option in the NBA.
 

LondonSox

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He had a shoulder injury that made his brain try to stop him shooting his natural shot, and then shot for some time with a new shitty shot. He then went months not shooting at all.
You now need to retrain the brain to allow him to go back to his shot. This is why there are videos of him doing everything but releasing the ball.

It's not yips, but similar, in that the brain is trying to stop you doing something.

As for shooting in the paint, well duh, you don't retrain your form starting at 3 point range. You rebuild the shot then extend range
How long will it take? SHRUG
Could he need the off-season, yeah, could it click tomorrow and then be back soon. Yeah, but honestly would the sixers put him into a playoff race?

I'd bet he's done for the season. But I don't think anyone should assume he's done forever.

Someone posted a good explainer on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/sixers/comments/7ub7tu/markelle_fultzs_jump_shot_dissecting_his_jumper/?utm_source=reddit-android
 
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I’ve known a number of musicians that have gotten focal dystonia. It is extremely debilitating and many are never able to retrain their brain. I’ve never thought to compare to the sports yips, but it makes sense. He’ll have a much easier time retraining his shot than a musician retraining specific finger movements in complex patterns. All up to his mental fortitude.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He had a shoulder injury that made his brain try to stop him shooting his natural shot, and then shot for some time with a new shitty shot. He then went months not shooting at all.
You now need to retrain the brain to allow him to go back to his shot. This is why there are videos of him doing everything but releasing the ball.

It's not yips, but similar, in that the brain is trying to stop you doing something.

As for shooting in the paint, well duh, you don't retrain your form starting at 3 point range. You rebuild the shot then extend range
How long will it take? SHRUG
Could he need the off-season, yeah, could it click tomorrow and then be back soon. Yeah, but honestly would the sixers put him into a playoff race?

I'd bet he's done for the season. But I don't think anyone should assume he's done forever.

Someone posted a good explainer on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/sixers/comments/7ub7tu/markelle_fultzs_jump_shot_dissecting_his_jumper/?utm_source=reddit-android
Hey thanks for posting. Congrats on the Eagles.
 

Reverend

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He had a shoulder injury that made his brain try to stop him shooting his natural shot, and then shot for some time with a new shitty shot. He then went months not shooting at all.
You now need to retrain the brain to allow him to go back to his shot. This is why there are videos of him doing everything but releasing the ball.

It's not yips, but similar, in that the brain is trying to stop you doing something.

As for shooting in the paint, well duh, you don't retrain your form starting at 3 point range. You rebuild the shot then extend range
How long will it take? SHRUG
Could he need the off-season, yeah, could it click tomorrow and then be back soon. Yeah, but honestly would the sixers put him into a playoff race?

I'd bet he's done for the season. But I don't think anyone should assume he's done forever.

Someone posted a good explainer on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/sixers/comments/7ub7tu/markelle_fultzs_jump_shot_dissecting_his_jumper/?utm_source=reddit-android
Serious question: Is this maybe by still... what? Bad?

I mean, I can understand it. I can see it is within the range of normal. But he ain’t trying to be normal, yeah? His goal, in basketball anyway, is to do much more than what is just understandable.

I would love both to see him overcome this and excel and then participate in a 30 for 30 on it. That said, I don’t really understand what the hell is going on. :)
 

LondonSox

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Serious question: Is this maybe by still... what? Bad?

I mean, I can understand it. I can see it is within the range of normal. But he ain’t trying to be normal, yeah? His goal, in basketball anyway, is to do much more than what is just understandable.

I would love both to see him overcome this and excel and then participate in a 30 for 30 on it. That said, I don’t really understand what the hell is going on. :)
I am not sure what you mean here Rev.

I agree with the last part.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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He had a shoulder injury that made his brain try to stop him shooting his natural shot, and then shot for some time with a new shitty shot. He then went months not shooting at all.
You now need to retrain the brain to allow him to go back to his shot. This is why there are videos of him doing everything but releasing the ball.

It's not yips, but similar, in that the brain is trying to stop you doing something.

As for shooting in the paint, well duh, you don't retrain your form starting at 3 point range. You rebuild the shot then extend range
How long will it take? SHRUG
Could he need the off-season, yeah, could it click tomorrow and then be back soon. Yeah, but honestly would the sixers put him into a playoff race?

I'd bet he's done for the season. But I don't think anyone should assume he's done forever.

Someone posted a good explainer on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/sixers/comments/7ub7tu/markelle_fultzs_jump_shot_dissecting_his_jumper/?utm_source=reddit-android
So, you're still buying what the Sixers are selling?

Honest question, is the only way you'd accept the yips as his issue if the sixers came out and stated it?
 

Marciano490

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I broke my right hand boxing. It was my best punch. I didn’t get surgery on it for a year or so. Instead of dropping into it and turning it over like I used to, I’d short arm it. It hurt too much to throw full power. I had a couple surgeries. It felt better for awhile. I never got my full technique back. It happens.
 

LondonSox

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I literally have no idea what the Sixers are selling. There is no clear message.
I think the difference between the Yips and retraining your brain is not exactly big. IF they fix it it's the latter, and if not the former. Right?

I do think it's mental now (or he'd not be shooting), I don't think they are saying otherwise.
They aren't letting him do a full practice so he is kept from the press. Which seems sensible. I don't think doing it in pre game is very smart, but I have no idea if that's actually deliberate to have him out in a crowd etc.

Shrug, I can't do anything about it so the constant debate seems a bit pointless. I'm hoping he can figure it out but of course that is not a given, which sucks. But I don't think anyone knows when things go right. They could click tomorrow or never.
 

djbayko

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I broke my right hand boxing. It was my best punch. I didn’t get surgery on it for a year or so. Instead of dropping into it and turning it over like I used to, I’d short arm it. It hurt too much to throw full power. I had a couple surgeries. It felt better for awhile. I never got my full technique back. It happens.
It sounds like you were using incorrect technique for at least a year. Fultz was shooting fine during Summer League in July. Three months later, the 76ers didn't feel comfortable playing him anymore.

Shooting is like riding a bicycle - especially for someone who has probably taken thousands of more shots in their lifetime than I ever did. It's one thing to get into a bad habit that causes your shot to drift right, left or hit the front of the rim. It's quite another to have it look like you're shooting with the wrong hand. He wouldn't be the first professional basketball player to have a shot-altering injury, and no one has ever seen someone have to completely re-learn shooting from the ground up like this before. I don't buy the imbalanced shoulder excuse for one second.
 
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HowBoutDemSox

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Even with the scapular imbalance being the real diagnosis, I'm still confused with the chick/egg conundrum here. If the shot change preceded and caused the injury, what caused him to change his shot? And if the injury preceded and caused the shot change, what caused the injury?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I broke my right hand boxing. It was my best punch. I didn’t get surgery on it for a year or so. Instead of dropping into it and turning it over like I used to, I’d short arm it. It hurt too much to throw full power. I had a couple surgeries. It felt better for awhile. I never got my full technique back. It happens.
I'm not sure I said it doesn't happen.

I just don't think that's what happened here.
 

mauf

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We’re losing sight of the most important fact: it’s more fun to blame Sixers’ management for fucking Fultz up than to concede that maybe something just snapped inside his head.

It’s a helluva lot more fun than admitting that none of us knows.
 

benhogan

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We’re losing sight of the most important fact: it’s more fun to blame Sixers’ management for fucking Fultz up than to concede that maybe something just snapped inside his head.

It’s a helluva lot more fun than admitting that none of us knows.
+1.
We'll probably never know what the real story is with Philly Mgmt/Markelle injury timeline. Sixer management is clearly in spin mode, they will say this came out of nowhere. No one could have predicted this happening to Markelle, will be their mantra. And that very well might be the truth, BUT my curiosity with this situation is how much did the Danny & Co know pre-draft? After Markelle's workout with the chairs and Danny being completely non-committal, did they have an inkling that this was possible? Was there anything Markelle did at Washington that tipped them off, besides not winning?
Was there anything predictive here or did the Celtics just get lucky? OR did Danny just have Tatum as his best player and figured he'd be there at #3.

I'd love to see their scouting write-up on Markelle and the Celtics ranking of players pre-draft.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I'm hoping he can figure it out but of course that is not a given, which sucks. But I don't think anyone knows when things go right. They could click tomorrow or never.
That's where I am. I want him to succeed (not too much, of course!) and it's a sad situation. It's not clear whether the Sixers know what's going on, or whether Fultz does. So clearly, the rest of us can't really have any idea. Could be tomorrow, could be never. And would be sad for everyone if it is the latter.
 

LondonSox

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I think anyone claiming that the Celtics saw this coming is just crazy.
His shot was fine in the summer league, so the timeline isn't really sensible.

If you want to discuss the possibility that they saw something in Fultz that turned them off him playing in Boston and that he wouldn't handle pressure, I can't argue against it. But it's not exactly clear. It's a tough sell.

But look the deal looks great not just on Fultz issues but on Tatum. Obviously with all the wings in Boston struggling Tatum would probably have them in the top 4/5 in the east and with two more lottery picks likely to come.

At this point though I just want markelle to be back to himself.
Honestly he seems like a guy who works too hard and tries too hard and that is ironically hurting him. Seems like a good kid and this must be awful to deal with at 19.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is an incredibly thorough examination of what we know and what we don't regarding the mystery of Markelle's missing jumper:

http://www.phillyvoice.com/what-has-really-been-going-markelle-fultz-shoulder-injury-broken-jump-shot/
Nice find. My takeaway.......

* Both sides acknowledge that Fultz DID have a cortisone shot. The time spent at the Shoulder Clinic in KY was always something that stood out as you'd have a team of renowned doctors otherwise lying over the condition of a patient....for what?

* Fultz in that drill speaks volumes to me and this could have been something Danny recognized. Who flings a reverse underhand over the shoulder shot at the rim during a team drill? Thinking back the only guys I saw do this in practice were the head cases.

I stand by the position that there is/was a shoulder injury and that Fultz is one of many flakes who entered this league with a strange head on his shoulder (pun).
 

djbayko

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Nice find. My takeaway.......

* Both sides acknowledge that Fultz DID have a cortisone shot. The time spent at the Shoulder Clinic in KY was always something that stood out as you'd have a team of renowned doctors otherwise lying over the condition of a patient....for what?

* Fultz in that drill speaks volumes to me and this could have been something Danny recognized. Who flings a reverse underhand over the shoulder shot at the rim during a team drill? Thinking back the only guys I saw do this in practice were the head cases.

I stand by the position that there is/was a shoulder injury and that Fultz is one of many flakes who entered this league with a strange head on his shoulder (pun).
That's interssting because I came away with the he opposite impression. The early quotes from both sides stating that he had purposely tinkered with his shot (while not mentioning any sort of health concern) is what got my attention the most. It seems to me like a case of them telling the truth before they realized how big a deal it was. The article also touches upon what I said in my last post - this would be the first case we know of where an injury causing a pro basketball player to forget how to shoot.

The doctors don't have to be lying about there being a shoulder injury. Markelle has big arms and obviously works out a lot. That doesn't mean it's what caused this mess. Shoulder injuries in weight training are common, and people play through them all the time.

This thread is like the Butler one. We don't know much and everyone had a different conspiracy theory.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Nice find. My takeaway.......

* Both sides acknowledge that Fultz DID have a cortisone shot. The time spent at the Shoulder Clinic in KY was always something that stood out as you'd have a team of renowned doctors otherwise lying over the condition of a patient....for what?
Agreed, nice article. Thanks for posting DD.

But on the cortisone shot - have their been any official statements from PHI confirming the shot? I know that on October 24th, Brothers (Fultz's agent) first said that he had fluid drained and then had a call with Colangelo and then issued a new statement on October 25 that Fultz had a cortisone shot on October 5. (Here's the Woj article.)

But I hadn't seen anything else on this topic from PHI side.